Healed' by God
Conservative Christians hold
conference to 'cure' gays
Dr. James Dobson is the leader of Focus on the Family, which is calling on gays and lesbians to undergo "reparative therapy."
By Alex Johnson
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 2:34 p.m. ET June 23, 2005NASHVILLE, Tenn. -

When activists for gay and lesbian causes gather outside a church near Seattle this weekend, they will have many critical things to say about how conservative Christian institutions have treated them.

Inside Northshore Baptist Church, where Focus on the Family will be preaching that homosexuality can be “healed” by the power of God’s love, Christian counselors will be making much the same point.

In addition to “powerful stories of ex-gay men and women,” people attending the Love Won Out conference will hear “a challenge to the church,” said Dr. Bill Maier, a child and family psychologist who is one of the event’s main speakers. Another is the Rev. Nancy Heche, the mother of Anne Heche, the actress who famously married a man after living a widely publicized lesbian life with comedian Ellen DeGeneres.

“Leaders of Love Won Out are very forthright in stating that the church has often fallen short when it comes to the homosexual community,” Maier, vice president and resident psychologist of Focus on the Family, said in an interview.

To be sure, Focus on the Family, the Colorado Springs-based ministry run by James Dobson, perhaps the most influential evangelical figure in the nation today, would agree with detractors of Love Won Out about very little else. At the one-day event, which is held a handful of times a year, ministers, psychologists and counselors who say they have left homosexuality behind them make the case for “reparative therapy” — the hypothesis that homosexuality is not innate and can be “repaired.”

The latest conference sets up shop Saturday in suburban Bothell, Wash. — amid Seattle’s annual Gay Pride Festival, which drew more than 120,000 people last year. Needless to say, gay rights activists plan protests, and they will follow up July 9 with their own Love Welcomes All event.

Participants will attend seminars about homosexuality and counseling sessions. There will also be advice for families and how they should deal with gay or lesbian relatives.

External factors said to determine sexuality
Maier cautioned that “human behavior is pretty darned complicated, so each individual is going to have a different experience.” But in general, he and others — notably psychologists Warren Throckmorton of Grove City College in Pennsylvania, Stanton Jones of Wheaton College in Illinois and Joseph J. Nicolosi of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality — argue that homosexuality is not immutable.

It may not be a “choice,” as many conservative religious leaders maintain, but it is a response to family and other external conditions, these researchers say. Nicolosi, who will speak Saturday at the Love Won Out event, teaches, for example, that early family relationships and inappropriate sexual seduction at a young age are key determiners of sexual identity.

You are not born gay, in other words, and you can stop being gay.

“Because many of America’s gay activist organizations have promulgated this myth that homosexuals are born gay, many Americans have been misled,” Maier said. “There are many research studies that clearly show that gender orientation is changeable.”

Debating ‘ex-gays’
Activists for gay and lesbian causes unreservedly denounce Love Won Out as twisting science for a conservative religious cause. Love Won Out and other advocates of reparative therapy — what has come to be known popularly as the “ex-gay movement” — are selling “sham science,” in the view of Barbara Menard, director of the Human Rights Campaign Foundation.

Gay rights advocates point to the position of the major medical professional organizations. In recent years, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association and the National Association of School Psychologists have all declared that homosexuality is not a mental disorder that can or should be cured.

Dr. Brad Bullock, a pediatrician in Nashville who is gay, said he had found the language used by Maier and others to be “astounding,” noting that the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of developmental disorders more than 30 years ago. Last month, the association called for recognition of same-sex marriages.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8234503/

I'll post more about this on my blog. But essentially, I think it is poppycock.
Susan

They are basically saying that we gays have chosen to be gay and can be 'cured' of our homosexuality. I wish it were that simple. It makes me sad sometimes seeing how intolerant the world can be of gays. Thier views seem similar to Clay's conservative views.

Thats bogus. Its like saying being gay is a disease that can be cured. Its not disease its a life style chosen. Its what a person wants to be. What makes that person who they are. I think some religious people are more judgemental then god himself. Who can say what is wrong in gods eyes?

No one is born gay. Its a lifestyle chosen. Its a sexual preference.

I do agree that sex preference can change. I know alot of people that were straight and then realised they were gay. I know people that were gay and then grew out of it. I know people who like both genders. Or are just plain confused.
Its not always true, but in most cases that i know of, the reason a person became gay was because of being hurt or just bad luck with the opposite sex. I've conversated with alot of people in this situation. Sometimes a person doesnt even understand why there gay. It just seems right to them. But a person is not born gay. Over time a person realises there likes and dislikes. What attracts them.
Too me, man or woman is beautiful. I think that the reason i married a man is because thats the person i fell in love with. If I had fallen in love with a woman, which is possible, I probably would of been with woman right now.

Belinda,
You are entitled to your opinion on this and the reality is it is just an opinion, because no one really knows. But science has found many indicators that there are genetic factors leading to being gay.

One is from studies of twins. If twins are identical/ they come from one egg having been divided they nearly always in research share the same sexual orientation. But if the twins are not identical/ come from two different eggs they are very rarely both oriented to homosexuality or bisexuality.

Research has found many people who knew their were gay before they even had an sexual attraction to anyone- were 4, 5 years old. They already understood the world differently.

Reasearch has also found a genetic marker on a chromosone that seems to account for a small number of people who are gay.

I've known hundreds of people who are gay in my lifetime. I have known people who tried being gay a a teenager or a college student who decided that they were not. But I have never known a person who has really embraced being gay who has later decided they were straight. Some have decided they were bisexual, but not straight.

And yes, there are people I have known who MIGHT be gay because of trauma they experienced. But it could also be that the trauma they experienced was partly because they were different and the other person sensed that about them in some cases.

If being gay was from the way you are raised, two things would be much more common than they are. First, gay couples who raise children would be raising children who decided they are gay like their parents - and this very rarely happens. (It does in a sense happen though sometimes, because there are cases where older children who have self-identified as gay are adopted by a gay couple.)

Also if it was from the way you were raised it would be much more common that siblings/ brothers &/or sisters would both be gay - and it is not common for more than one memeber of the family be gay.

Evidence from research points to their being one or more genetic markers for being gay.

Susan

Both Belinda and Clay believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, but for me it wasn't a choice, but rather the way I am. People have told me that being gay is a sin and have condemed me for living the way I live. I've tried being with women before, but it just doesn't work out. Sometimes I wish I were a normal straight guy.

Well if your a religious person the bible does condemn homosexuality. Society more openly accepts it more then before, but true christians know that it is not acceptable.

Most gay people I know realized they were gay just like I realized I was straight -- an underlying attraction to girls from since I can remember and then the powerful urges, dreams and erections all the time starting when I was 14. Then the desires got incredibly intense 19-present. It was definitely not a choice for me to be heterosexual.

IT IS NOT A CHOICE for people to be homosexual. If it were a choice, almost no one would choose it given the discrimination and stigma associated with it. People still get beaten to death for being gay. Recently two lesbians were murdered.

It's not a choice. It's a naturally-occuring phenomenon documented in almost every species from fruit flies to monkeys to humans.

It is a natural genetic variation, like being left-handed. And scientific evidence continues to mount to prove this.

Nick

Belinda,
Different Christian demoninations and sects interpret the Bible differently and some do not view homosexualty as anything but an alternative to heterosexuality- and not wrong.
Susan

im talking about the old english bible

Belinda,

If you are going to use the Bible as a way to insist that homosexuality is wrong you need to understand there is not ONE old English Bible.And each Bible - old or new has a slightly different way they view homosexuality.

The Bible was not written in English. It was written in a language that only scholars know now. So very few of us really have even an inkling what the Bible ever said originally. We have to believe the people who translated the text into English. And they don't all agree.

Susan


Here's a good link to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Christianity#Positions_of_specific_denominations

Susan, i am in no way agreeing to believing that homosexuality is wrong. I am just saying what the bible that i read condemns it.

Belinda,

And I am saying that not all people who read the Bible and are devoutly religious Christians believe the Bible says it is wrong. Maybe if you do believe it is not wrong, you should start looking at other Bibles to follow.

Susan

I am starting to agree with Belinda and Clay that homosexuality is wrong and leads to a lifetime of sin. I think I will dump my boyfriend and go back to being a heterosexual male. I think I am actually bisexual at heart, so it won't be too much of a change.

Steve,

Let me ask you about your current relationship.

Do you respect each other?
Do you care about each other?
Do you get sexually turned on by each other?
Do you think about each other when you are apart?
Do you care about each others futures?

What is different about your relationship with your boyfriend than what it would be if it was a girlfriend?

Susan

Does looking at men give you erections but not women? When you have sex dreams are men in them?

If yes, you are gay.

Don't crush a woman's spirit with falling in love with someone who can't return her feelings. Be absnlutely sure what you are. Don't use women as experiments.

Just step back and get in touch with how you really feel, so you can find true love and happiness. And block out the fundamentalist horseshit about homosexuality being a sin. Is it a sin when it occurs in nature and monkeys do it? Come on. It's not.

Follow your heart, wherever it leads.

Nick

I guess I still like him, but I'm getting kind of bored with the guy. I'll just let him down gently so he won't be too crushed. We marched in the Gay Pride Parade in Toronto yesterday. It had a good turn-out. Thanks for helping to set me straight Belinda and realizing that homosexuality is wrong.

Steve,

So maybe the problem is not that he is a guy, but who he is. When a person who is heterosexual is bored with a woman he doesn't say, oh I think I will try men. If your relationship isn't working it could be just because he is not the right guy.

If you truly think you are bisexual, then after you end this relationship just keep yourself open for whatever happens. Go to straight and gay places. Just check the world out as a newly free man.
See what happens - and then follow you instincts.

Susan

Susan, I think I can be just as happy or even happier with a woman than with a man. I guess that's the beauty about being a bisexual. Let's be honest now, women are much more sexier than men, plus I would be normal in the eyes of God if I were with a woman instead of a man. I guess Clay had a few good points, when he condemned homosexuality.

Thank you for your sincere advise Nick (your one of the good ones). Actually, looking at women gives me more erections than looking at men, but also looking at big cocks also give me hard erections, so I don't know. Plus, what's wrong with experimenting with women? I thought that is how one is supposed to find out who they truly are?

I'm saying remember women are people not test subjects. If a woman falls in love with you and then finds out you're gay later on when you leave her for a guy, it could mess her up emotionally for life.

Nick

I suppose you're right Nick. I wouldn't want to mess up a woman psychologically like the girl that you tried to be with. But how else would I be able to know for sure? Getting your heart broken is part of the game.

If you date women casually their hearts will not be broken. And if you are upfront that you are bisexual it will not be upsetting if after you date them you date men.

Your right Susan (as usual).

Susan is right. Honesty to others every step of the way, honesty to yourself every step of the way, that is the key.

If you do that, you'll be ok no matter what.

Nick

'Honesty is the best policy.' But Nick, let's be honest for a second. How far has being honest gotten you with women? Honesty in a relationship is necessary if you want a successful relationship, but if you can't even get a relationship started, then what's the use? I've read about your struggles with women, and I do feel sorry for you. Maybe it's time to change your approach? Instead of looking for love, maybe try looking for sex?

Steve,
In my mind there is nothing wrong with just looking for sex (if you are older and really have some sense of who you are and what you want. Like over 19.) Some people just want to have sexand arnot into having a relationship - in college, working hard, planning to move in 5 months,etc.- and that's OK as long as BOTH people are just looking for sex. It doesn't work any other way. One person gets hurt.
Susan

Never ever mislead a woman, especially about your sexuality. It might get you short-term gratification, but long-term could lead to horrible life-altering pain, for both you and her.

Nick

If a man is gay why is he having sex with a woman anyway, he knows he really wants a penis not a pussy so why deny that to yourself and to her? I honestly don't know how women date bi-sexual men in the first place if they are straight. I would be disgusted knowing that he is interested in men as well. I once asked my friend (this guy I was interested in dating) if he have had thoughts about being with a man sexually, orally or anything with a man lol and he said he has and I was appalled to say the least and I was no longer interested in him as he was in me and when he asked me out I said no. The thought of possibly dating a man who has contemplated being with a man not just ONCE but he admitted to at least 3 times is too much for me. Sure everyone has thoughts of that I�m sure. I've thought about being with a woman but then it was nothing but a thought, I�m not going to act upon that thought. So anyway, I don't know that's my opinion.

I was reading a website last night and I went under the category "homosexual." It mentions how big of a sin it is and how God condemns it entirely. Hey, not everyone believes in God and is as religious as many people are but I just thought I�d mention it anyway. After reading this I told my sister and she immediately responded saying, �Gees, I�m going to hell.� She was joking about it because she once out of curiosity experimented with a woman and she said she enjoyed it. But now she is married and has moved on but I�m sure she still wants more lol.

Oh I wrote the above message. Forgot to enter my name.

Rita,

Lots of people who believe in God, and some who are Christian do not think homosexuality is a sin. And so you know, I am not going to post a link to any website that says it is.

IMO if there is a God he made all the animals and the people and he doesn't make mistakes.Animals exhibit gay sexual behavior. Men and women have practiced gay sex since the beginnng of time.

I do not understand why you find it so offensive that a man or woman is bisexual. They are exactly like you, except they find themselves sexually attracted to both men and women. And to me it is absolutely no matter if they have had sex with a man or woman before - I am most concernd with how they feel about me at that moment.

Susan

Rita, it seems like you have taken on Clay's role as being intolerant to other people's sexual practices. Canada has now made it legal for gays to get married. I once heard that the most 'ideal' sexual orientation are people are bisexual, because they can tolerate or accomodate members of both genders. Most religions however, condems homosexuality, thus people who are gay usually are not religious and people who are religious are usually straight and have families.

"Rita, it seems like you have taken on Clay's role as being intolerant to other people's sexual practices." I am def. not taking up Clay's part Steve. I am just stating my opinion and nothing more. I�m not being small-minded. I do still stick to what I believe when I say homosexuality is "condemned by God." But I�m not going to waste my time and explain what is right and what is wrong because who am I judge and have that power to say so. JMO.

I think every one has there right to an opinion. If someone elses opinion bothers you than your the one with the issues. Maybe you self concious of who you are. Maybe thats why it bothers you so much.

Can you imagine what it would be like if one day you moved because of a job and found yourself in a place where nearly everyone was gay. On everybody's desk was a picure of their same-sexed partner, but when you wanted to put a photo of your opposite sexed partner your office mate suggested that you put that away in your drawer. When there was a party planned to welcome you - you had to decide whether to go solo or find a same-sexed friend to go with you. When you met the neighbors you had to be sure to let the know you had a two bedroom house - and you each had your own room. No kisses on the door step. No holding hands.

All the things that felt natural and right to you - things you had no choice/ control over - were suddenly wrong. All your life you had felt sexual attraction toward people of the opposite sex, but now you were being told it was wrong. Something as natural as breathing to you - was suddenly offensive. People tell you it is OK you are straight- but we really don't want to see it. What you do behind closed doors is ok- but I don't want straight marriage with you getting the same rights as us.

Think about what it must be like to be something that people find so easy to condemn and disrespect.

I understand the point that your trying to make across.