This futile argument whether somebody said metres, or inches, loses its relevancy if you look at the official NASA web site dealing with measurements. Under education you find all measures given in metric, with imperial equivalents in parenthesis.That is how it looks:

Future,......... (past).Must be a rather worrying omen for USC and imperial lovers.

While I am at it, Tesco the imperial friendly chain as we are told again and again, sticks pretty well to metric only on its price comparison site. Out of a great selection of items only very few have equivalents in oz. It too looks like Future,...... (past)

Well, don't know how long Tescos will be 'Imperial friendly', but I think it is.... I buy 2lb bags of rice, 5floz pots of cream, etc.

"metre" (eric) can obviously only read small print (ignored) while ignoring the huge print (current and noticed) when looking at the loose stuff in Tescos (biggest market share).

eg potatoes POUND PRICE (NOTICED) and kg price (ignored)!

LOL!

Re: Future and past January 20 2004, 8:31 AM

Well, don't know how long Tescos will be 'Imperial friendly', but I think it is.... I buy 2lb bags of rice, 5floz pots of cream, etc.


If everything goes according to plan, till about 2010.
That will be a surprise for people who ignored metric weights. What I can't understand is, why make it so hard for yourselves, metric it is here to stay whether you like it or not. No Tory government can change back to imperial, and running 2 systems side by side is costly and inconvinient. Worse still it deprives the country of the immense benefits of complete metrication.

<<
running 2 systems side by side is costly and inconvinient
>>

If that were the case, one system would die out on its own, according to basic principles of economics. It may not be the best situation to be in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be any better to force conversion through.

"If everything goes according to plan, till about 2010."

Ooh Scarey!

"That will be a surprise for people who ignored metric weights."

Not ignored - its just that imperial is "chosen"

"What I can't understand is, why make it so hard for yourselves, metric it is here to stay whether you like it or not."

So is imperial! HAve you not noticed that both are here to stay? Better get used to it or you'll grow old(er) and even more grumpy old man!

"No Tory government can change back to imperial,"

Explain why not?

" and running 2 systems side by side is costly and inconvinient."

Being open to more than one market is hardly costly. Offering more, rather than less, information is hardly inconvenient! What an old and worn out argument!

" Worse still it deprives the country of the immense benefits of complete metrication."

Indeed - I believe that places like afghanistan and cambodia are metric - so BRING IT ON!!! LOL.

"oh scarey"

Yes Steve, seriously: OOh, scary! I don't want ot be forced to use metric units. Yet, increasinlgy, I am forced too. soon everything will be metric and Iwill not be a happy camper.

Bryan,

I believe you are over-sensitive.

Believe me, when 2010 comes along if they force people to not show certain words then not only will the media jump on it, not only will civil liberties jump on it, but the people at large will jump on it. IT willmean that words will be banned for the first time since the fall of comunism and Germany in the 30's/40's.

Here is where I put my money:

1) A tory* gov't of 2010 (think about it!!) will never allow such an anti-tory thing to happen

2) The closest it will get enacted into law will be a extension of the "do by" date (consider how many changes / laws have been through that process)

Realise as well that the devisive issue of "the Euro" may alter any future ill-doings of the EU (whether a "yes" or "no" is returned).

Also realise the "step too far" notion that usually agitates Brits (eventually!!).

This is all based, of course, on us STILL BEING MEMBERS of the EU! Unlikely as it seems, a "no" to the euro followed by a 2 speed EU will inevitably lead to a break up of the EU as a "one" institution.

Now add to the pot the "ascension" of new east europe countries into the EU soup.

All is not lost, my friend, by a long way!

In the meantime we can just enjoy the name-calling of eric and friend!

======================

* Why will there be a tory gov't? Because of historical yearning for change. Although I say "tory" it could, however, apply to a new right-wing coalition to topple the new-left/blairist regime. Whatever happens the slow and steady rejection of Blairism is in full flow.

I am not as optimistic as you, I must say. Hopefully you are right, though. I would like to believe it. And, as you say, till then (and even after then), I can take solace in the fact that English is perfectly fine, and Eric is a silly young man.

In response to SteveH :

Here is where I put my money:

1. Labour will still win the next election in May 2005 (despite everything).

2. The next Labour government will be much weaker than the current one and will be forced to soldier on, lame duck style, through a full five year term. (See John Major circa 1992-1997 for a relavent example).

3. Being "good little Europeans" Labour wouldn't dream of going back to the EU to ask "permission" for another ten year extension on imperial. And even if they did there is a very good chance that it would be refused.

4. The 1st January 2010 arrives with no action having been taken by anyone (apart from the BWMA who will be hopping mad. Unfortunately, nobody is listening). The Government will "lean" on the local authorities so that there is no inconvenient fuss just before an election.

5. The election is held in March/April 2010 and Labour lose. The Tories are back but it's too late, they have more important fish to fry and can't be bothered to pass a new weights and measures act.

You can't count on a Tory Government saving imperial from the hang man's noose. Remember, it was the Tories that put imperial on death row in the first place !

Fair point about the EU, though.

There's no telling what it will be like in six years time but I think that you are being very optomistic. My bet is that it will still be around in one form or another as the death of the EU would be a very slow and messy affair.

Six years is a long time in politics and in all likelihood it won't turn out how any of us expect.

All will be revealed in the fullness of time !

So basically what you're saying is that it will not be necessary for labor to stay in power until the deadline, only long enough so that if the conservatives take over they won't have enough time until the deadline to do anything.
Very good politics.

Re: Future and past January 21 2004, 6:22 AM

<<
running 2 systems side by side is costly and inconvinient
>>

If that were the case, one system would die out on its own, according to basic principles of economics. It may not be the best situation to be in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be any better to force conversion through.

When will "imperialists" grasp that it is an outright atrocity to force an outdated and cumbersome measuring system on to school children. Not only does it waste their precious time, but leaves them with units only one other nation, sort of understands on this planet. Imperial is bad enough, a hybrid even worse! It wastes even more of their time without gaining any benefit whatsoever. But it sure adds a lot of extra costs and inconvinience.
Economics, that inexact science, has its place in the scheme of things, but not in the context you like to see it. If one follows your illogic, and uses poor old Darwin's evolutionary theory as an analogy, than metric is an outstanding success, and FFUs are doomed to die.

Re: Future and past January 21 2004, 6:58 PM

I am not as optimistic as you, I must say. Hopefully you are right, though. I would like to believe it. And, as you say, till then (and even after then), I can take solace in the fact that English is perfectly fine, and Eric is a silly young man.

Let me put it this way, coming from a lost soul like you, one can consider it a compliment whomever you meant.
I actually do feel sorry for you, b/c one can sense the mental and physical anguish you suffer. That should tell all of you imperialists that your preference for outdated measurements has nothing to do with their merit, but purely with a feeling that something foreign and unfamiliar should take their place. This very natural reaction is nothing to be ashamed of.
Matters get only out of hand when you insist that old units are equally as good as metric ones, or even superior.

And how again are metric units superior?

To "Evil" - we have differing opinions - I take yours on board but I still stick to my opinion (naturally). I find it very difficult to believe that a people will allow these words:

"xxp per KG / xxp per LB"

to be criminally offensive while these words:

"dildo 8 inches / two speed"

to be perfectly ok!

Think about it - the press will have a field day! (that apart from the public reaction that is)

Unfortunately I have to agree that labour will scrape thru in 2005, possibly with Gordon (I'm not so pro-EU as Blair) Brown? What do you think to that idea?

"The Government will "lean" on the local authorities so that there is no inconvenient fuss just before an election"

I believe you have forgotton the natural tendancy of -ahem- "rogue traders" like the likes of Steve Thoburn and Tesco (ie a vast majority) to either put 2 fingers up or find an enormous grey area that makes no difference to the status quo (hopefully the 1st option).

"The Tories are back but it's too late, they have more important fish to fry and can't be bothered to pass a new weights and measures act"

This is very dependant on the state of the economy at the time, don't you think? I believe a Tory govt will introduce a practice what other european countries currently do and simply ignore the rules they don't like.

[quick joke: "What stability pact?"]

"Remember, it was the Tories that put imperial on death row in the first place "

We all make mistakes! Ironically it was probably during Blair's tenure that imperial got re-introduced into the school curriculum! (It was late 90's)

Bryan : "Eric is a silly young man" - Believe me - he's a hell of a lot older than me and probably you too (no offence meant)!


Eric:

"it is an outright atrocity to force an outdated and cumbersome measuring system on to school children"

1) Tough luck - if it didn't happen at school (which it does) it would happen at home and "on the streets". I hearby give the "comical ali" crown to you for fighting an absurd battle and pretending to win it somehow!

2) Force? Who's forcing? The only forcing going on is to somehow stop humans "saying" imperial words! I wouldn't be posting here (well probably) if it were up to humans to choose to use metric or imperial in situations that didn't encounter danger.

3) Outdated? Prove it!

4) Do you have kids? Don't take this too deeply but I hope not.

"and FFUs are doomed to die"

What's FFU again? [poke poke]

"I actually do feel sorry for you, b/c one can sense the mental and physical anguish you suffer"

From one who relies on insults, misproven "facts" and downright lies this is the best example of black pots and kettles!!!! LOL LOL LOL!!!!!

How about the anguish of endlessly hearing and seeing imperial in your life added to the fact that you're (self admittedly) not conversant in this precious "metric system" that you worship so much? That must be a living pain!!! How far does your heart sink when you hear a kid on TV saying "stone" or "feet and inches"? Eh? You know, the future generation and - dare I say - a generation twice removed from yourself? It is *YOU* that we would feel sorry for if it were not for your offensive hypocritical rants about something you admit to knowing little about! It's like feeling sorry for a tramp and then feeling totally different when the same tramp shouts at a child walking past him!

We need more of your sort, eric, simply for entertainment value.

"Matters get only out of hand when you insist that old units are equally as good as metric ones, or even superior"

And the German language is "better" or "superior" than the French language! (substitute 'English' and 'Welsh' there if you wish) What a daft argument!

You could argue that the "better" system is the one that most people "use" - you could equally argue that the "better" system is the one that makes scientific research simpler and progressive. It would still be an awful argument. Fancy that - you hate the word "inch" but use it frequently! What a daft juxtaposition!!

Sorry for the long word there.

Bryan : "And how again are metric units superior"

To answer this one needs to be mentally unstable!



P.S. I'm loving this! Did any of you recognise this? Hmm?

[glee]

No-one run a spell check or grammar check on my rant above!

Put it this way - vodka is compatible with the Atkins diet.

"Bryan : "Eric is a silly young man" - Believe me - he's a hell of a lot older than me and probably you too (no offence meant)!"


You sure, Steve? In any case, I should think I am the youngest one here :)

He's posted on metricsucks and metric martyr discussion sites - the usual "insulty" stuff.

I have gleaned that he is in his mid to late 40's.

Conversely I think the youngest poster here is Frederick Rodriguez - I believe he's in his late teens?

"Put it this way - vodka is compatible with the Atkins diet."

Vodka? That's some going at 11:55 AM !!!!

How old would you say I am, Steve? Honestly, now...

Re: Future and past January 22 2004, 7:54 AM

And how again are metric units superior?

Your question answers it! If you haven't grasped it yet, then you never will. Arguing with you people is like arguing with somebody living in the middle ages, who insist that witches do exist. And of course they do, albeit only in your heads. The breathtaking hubris displayed by imperial lovers rivals their ignorance. To presume that 2 countries on this planet have the ideal measuring system when everyone else on this globe discarded it as useless, borders on megalomania.

<<
To presume that 2 countries on this planet have the ideal measuring system when everyone else on this globe discarded it as useless, borders on megalomania.
>>
What do you mean by the ideal system? Why can't there be more than one good system to use? We all use different languages, because there are many good languages to use. The fact that most people use the metric system proves that it is a good system to use, but proves nothing about the imperial system. Just because people use metric does not imply that imperial is worse. All it shows is that metric works.

Re: Future and past January 23 2004, 4:15 AM

<<
To presume that 2 countries on this planet have the ideal measuring system when everyone else on this globe discarded it as useless, borders on megalomania.

Bud says

>>What do you mean by the ideal system? Why can't there be more than one good system to use? We all use different languages, because there are many good languages to use. The fact that most people use the metric system proves that it is a good system to use, but proves nothing about the imperial system. Just because people use metric does not imply that imperial is worse. All it shows is that metric works.

Do you deliberately forget that all metric countries, including recently converted ones, HAVE BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
They know what misery they were settled with, you people obviously don't! Your assertion that imperial is equal to metric is based on pure ignorance.

I find it amusing to see how you bend the facts to suit your reality, how you assert that others have siad things which they have not. You might make a good politican.

btw, I find it offensive that for me my preference of Imperial is based on ignorance. I have used metric all of my life and know EXACTLY what is going on with the system. The fact is mate I just happen to prefer English units. Sorry to break it to you.

Why do all metricminds assume that we English supporters simply do not 'understand' or somehow 'follow' the metric drift? It is deeply infuriating.

<<
Do you deliberately forget that all metric countries, including recently converted ones, HAVE BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
They know what misery they were settled with, you people obviously don't! Your assertion that imperial is equal to metric is based on pure ignorance.
>>

metre, I have had plenty of exposure to the metric system. We use it in science. I have stayed in India and visited other metric countries. The only reason people in metric countries prefer metric is because they are used to it.
Look at the following table:
situation Govt policy People's preference
1940 US imperial imperial imperial
1980 US imperial metric imperial
2000 US imperial imperial imperial
1960 India imperial metric imperial
2000 India metric metric metric
2000 UK mixed metric mixed
1850 France metric none metric

From the table, you see that government policy has no connection with what the people prefer to use. There is no one system that people prefer to use. However, note one thing. The present situation of measurements in any country at any given time and the people's preference is ALWAYS the same. This is even true if people are familiar with both systems (U.S. year 2000). The fact that people in formerly imperial countries that have switched over to metric now like metric better proves nothing about the systems. They like it better because of the above noted correlation. That's all there is to it.

Whereaver conversions to metrication have taken place anywhere in the world, the Government took the lead and the people followed. In most cases the rules were unpopular (at least for a short period). However, once the conversion was complete, people agreed that the Governments concerned had done the right thing.

A typical example was in South Africa - in the 1970's the English Language press usually took an anti-government line, particularly on Apartheid. However they supported the system of metrication. The result, SOuth Africa is now fully metricated.

In the UK - The UK Government diod not have the guts to do the job properly with the resultant mess that we have today.

<<
However, once the conversion was complete, people agreed that the Governments concerned had done the right thing.
>>

Which people? People living during the changeover or after? People after were never accustomed to the old system and obviously cannot make a fair decision any more than those living during imperial days.

People living during the change-over.

My sister for example had just finished school when the change-over occured. About five years ago she arrived in Britain and amongst other things teaches book-binding. All her teaching is done in centimetres - "I do'nt do inches" is her comment.

Evil: "Vodka? That's some going at 11:55 AM !!!!"

Think "the day after"!


Bryan: "How old would you say I am, Steve? Honestly, now..."

Now you know that's not fair to ask!!!

Metre (old man eric): "They know what misery they were settled with, you people obviously don't! Your assertion that imperial is equal to metric is based on pure ignorance"

"You people" = about 90% of the UK and 98% of the US
"misery" - daft over emotionalising.
"Ignorance" - how about people on the pro-metric or pro-imperial side stop responding to you until you stop the insults? Although it's a (welcome) bad advert for your 'sort' (an odd old-age imperial useing, imperial hating type) it only opens you up to the constant ridicule that you inadvertantly fish for!

Bryan: "Why do all metricminds assume that we English supporters simply do not 'understand' or somehow 'follow' the metric drift? It is deeply infuriating"

Bryan, with respect you are only talking about a minority on the metric side. Most metric users are happy enough for imperial to coexist. Most visitors to the UK actually like seeing it. The metric proponents here make their valid points for the advocation of metric (I include the likes of martin, richard, evil etc etc). The type you are talking about is the laughable extremists who know metric or -in the strange case of eric/metre - those who grew up on imperial only and feel a mental resentment to it hence the overemotional posts and insults that hide a rather sad position of "wanting to be in the metric team but can't". Because of this he cannot understand that imperial and metric can coexist and to claim they can is measurement heresy. To acknowledge a knowing of metric and imperial, in his world, is an impossibility. Thus his thinks that because of this polar situation it would be a burden, or even "cruel" to teach kids both systems. The funny thing is, I was educated in the 80's before imperial was re-introduced, yet I have no mental grudge about people saying they are comfortable in both - I don't claim superiority of the imperial system based upon a hatred of only learning metric.
I feel sorry for the poor man.

Sort of

Martin: "In the UK - The UK Government diod not have the guts to do the job properly with the resultant mess that we have today."

Please be honest with yourself - where have you seen, in everyday life, this "mess" hindering people's lives? When have you *ever* heard anyone on the street complaining because their life is made slightly more difficult because Kg and miles co-exist? Try to be straight here - you are creation a problem that does not exist. Give me one practical example of where someone has suffered in their day-2-day life because a kid professes he is "five foot tall" or some bloke managed to get "130 mph out of his 1.3L motor".

"I do'nt do inches" is her comment.

That's very nice! I must remember, when I next visit France, to say "I don't do cm"! I might even obtusely follow up with "I don't do French" even though I have a basic understanding of the language. They can conform to my way of thinking!

(p.s. you might get a hint there that I detest selfishness!!)

Re: Future and past January 23 2004, 9:18 AM

<<
However, once the conversion was complete, people agreed that the Governments concerned had done the right thing.
>>

Which people? People living during the changeover or after? People after were never accustomed to the old system and obviously cannot make a fair decision any more than those living during imperial days.

No, people living today! Australians, S.Africans, New Zealanders, Fijians, Tongans and Papua New Guineans. Nowhere is there any move to go back to "dear old units" again. They only people having trouble making a fair decision, is a handful of vociferous imperialists.

Re: Future and past January 23 2004, 8:13 AM
Brian Parry
btw, I find it offensive that for me my preference of Imperial is based on ignorance. I have used metric all of my life and know EXACTLY what is going on with the system. The fact is mate I just happen to prefer English units. Sorry to break it to you.

Why do all metricminds assume that we English supporters simply do not 'understand' or somehow 'follow' the metric drift? It is deeply infuriating.

To put it crudely, only fully metric educated,or younger people in recently converted countries, appreciate the simplicity and elegance of the metric system. Nobody says that you do not understand metric on a cursory level, but that knowledge cannot be equated with people's, who use it on a daily basis. Whover thinks otherwise lives in a dream world.

metre January 23 2004, 8:08 AM
Brian Parry:
I find it amusing to see how you bend the facts to suit your reality, how you assert that others have siad things which they have not. You might make a good politican.

Would love to see some of these bent facts, and quotes people haven't made.

As to being a good politician, thank you, no . This board is only a tiny reflection of what these guys have to put up with day in day out. They surely earn their keep the hard way.

<<
Nowhere is there any move to go back to "dear old units" again.
>>
And nowhere in America is there a mass move to go metric. See my point? All your arguments are reversible.

Metre, I am a young person. Trust me. I am a student. I use metric all the time and always have. I prefer Imperial. Accept it.

<<<No, people living today! Australians, S.Africans, New Zealanders, Fijians, Tongans and Papua New Guineans. Nowhere is there any move to go back to "dear old units" again>>>

That explains why they still commonly use it!

<<<Nobody says that you do not understand metric on a cursory level, but that knowledge cannot be equated with people's, who use it on a daily basis. Whover thinks otherwise lives in a dream world>>>

Here is the admittion that I was after where he ACTUALLY BELIEVES that no-one can be fluent in metric and imperial - thank you, oldman eric, THANK YOU!

Breaking news : Linguaphone have gone bust due to the fact that no-one can learn another language.

Except if they're really really young!!!

Eric ('metre')- go and take your pension - buy a metric only ruler (if you can find one )and dream about what could have been there's a good fellow!

Future and past January 23 2004, 8:19 AM

<<
Do you deliberately forget that all metric countries, including recently converted ones, HAVE BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
They know what misery they were settled with, you people obviously don't! Your assertion that imperial is equal to metric is based on pure ignorance.
>>

metre, I have had plenty of exposure to the metric system. We use it in science. I have stayed in India and visited other metric countries. The only reason people in metric countries prefer metric is because they are used to it.
Look at the following table:
situation Govt policy People's preference
1940 US imperial imperial imperial
1980 US imperial metric imperial
2000 US imperial imperial imperial
1960 India imperial metric imperial
2000 India metric metric metric
2000 UK mixed metric mixed
1850 France metric none metric

From the table, you see that government policy has no connection with what the people prefer to use. There is no one system that people prefer to use. However, note one thing. The present situation of measurements in any country at any given time and the people's preference is ALWAYS the same. This is even true if people are familiar with both systems (U.S. year 2000). The fact that people in formerly imperial countries that have switched over to metric now like metric better proves nothing about the systems. They like it better because of the above noted correlation. That's all there is to it.

metre:
Nothing has changed. You are confusing merit with habit. Metric has merit, USC are habit! Look up customary in a dictionary.

Re: Future and past January 27 2004, 7:52 AM


<<
Nowhere is there any move to go back to "dear old units" again.
>>
And nowhere in America is there a mass move to go metric. See my point? All your arguments are reversible.

metre:
To begin with you couldn't do worse than the system you have now.
Neither were there mass movements for metrication in Europe. But you obviously had more people there to recognize a good thing when they saw one. About 60% of Americans obviously don't.

Re: Future and past January 27 2004, 8:15 AM

Metre, I am a young person. Trust me. I am a student. I use metric all the time and always have. I prefer Imperial. Accept it.

metre:
Re-read what I said. To be really proficient you have to dream in metres, and believe me you are kilometres away from that.

<<
Nothing has changed. You are confusing merit with habit. Metric has merit, USC are habit! Look up customary in a dictionary.
>>
So what you're saying is that since the world has converted to metric it must have merit? I'm saying that the world converted because they were forced to. And the customary system is not necessarily what people prefer. I'll say this again: People prefer whatever they happen to be using, at any time in history at any place.
What I would like you to explain to me is this. How can you look at the fact that most of the world uses metric and, from that, draw the conclusion that metric has merit?

"Re-read what I said. To be really proficient you have to dream in metres, and believe me you are kilometres away from that."


Come on, are you having a laugh, or what? You are a troll (and there is nothing worthy or honourable in that, sorry)

<<<metre:
Re-read what I said. To be really proficient you have to dream in metres, and believe me you are kilometres away from that.
>>>

Is that the saddest justification to "prove" that metric is superior to imperial?

Did you have a few pints of "the good stuff" down at the retirement home before posting that eric?

Jeesh! I've heard it all now.

Re: Future and past January 28 2004, 6:35 AM

<<
Nothing has changed. You are confusing merit with habit. Metric has merit, USC are habit! Look up customary in a dictionary.
>>
Bud:
So what you're saying is that since the world has converted to metric it must have merit? I'm saying that the world converted because they were forced to.

metre:
To argue on your level. As the saying goes 2 brains are better than one, and by that reasoning 6.3 billion don't take much notice of about 180 million very ignorant people.

Bud:
And the customary system is not necessarily what people prefer. I'll say this again: People prefer whatever they happen to be using, at any time in history at any place.

metre:
If you follow that argument to its final conclusion it means that we should still live in caves. After all we knew no better then and could at best prefer our neighbours cave only!
What you basically say is simply this: Because I lhave something, that's why I prefer it! It is stating the obvious without giving rhyme, or reason. More like a short circuit in your brain than an argument. If they don't prefer it and there something better, they would change. So essentially we come back to ignorance and habit.

Let's try once more. Just ask yourself this question: Why are only Britain and America preoccupied with measurement change? NOBODY, BUT NOBODY else is! Is somebody forcing them? Not that I know. So, please tell me the reason why that is so? And if that answer is government, it is still please tell me why?

Bud:
What I would like you to explain to me is this. How can you look at the fact that most of the world uses metric and, from that, draw the conclusion that metric has merit?
only
Your contention is simply this; Europeans and all other nations decided willy nilly to force their poulations at great expense and inconvinience to adopt a system that was neither better nor worse than the existing ones.(No semantics on that statement please) If you consider this to be the case, I wish you a happy long life and leave it at that.

.

Re: Future and past January 28 2004, 8:21 AM

Bryan:
"Re-read what I said. To be really proficient you have to dream in metres, and believe me you are kilometres away from that."


Come on, are you having a laugh, or what? You are a troll (and there is nothing worthy or honourable in that, sorry)

metre:
Now, now, don't get your knickers in a twist b/c you are not proficient in metric. Given time you maybe will be.

I am proficient in metric. In fact, I am probably more able in metric than you are.

<<<I am probably more able in metric than you are>>>

That's the understatement of the year Bryan!
Do you see the way he squirms at the fact that the majority of people under 40 are totally proficient in both imperial and metric? And for this reason alone - a living proof if you like - that metric cannot be "better" than imperial (in the same way imperial cannot be better than metric). Now do you see why I age him at at least 45?

You have to at least feel sorry for him for thinking that way?

Right - off to my cave now because I say "inch"

<<
To argue on your level. As the saying goes 2 brains are better than one, and by that reasoning 6.3 billion don't take much notice of about 180 million very ignorant people.
>>
So you're saying that metric is better because more people think so. A while ago you were explaining why popular opinion is often wrong (you gave examples of slavery and burning witches). Please make up your mind.


<<
If you follow that argument to its final conclusion it means that we should still live in caves. After all we knew no better then and could at best prefer our neighbours cave only!
>>
You can obviously have a better life in a home than in a cave. Show me how the rest of the world has better life, economy or science than the US and UK.

<<
Let's try once more. Just ask yourself this question: Why are only Britain and America preoccupied with measurement change? NOBODY, BUT NOBODY else is! Is somebody forcing them? Not that I know. So, please tell me the reason why that is so? And if that answer is government, it is still please tell me why?
>>
Measurement change may be motivated by a variety of reasons. First off, emotional. (Similar emotion is motivating governments to erradicate the English language in India and China, and motivating other groups to keep it). Second, political pressure by a few special interest groups that would benefit by metrication at public expense.

Here is where I think we differ. You judge a measurement system by comparing it to others. I judge a measurement system on its own merit. Metric is a perfectly good system, and those who are familiar with it are happy with it, but that does not say anything about the English system. The French language has many fewer irregular verbs and structures than the English language, however this does not imply that English is an inferior language, because those who know it can use it just as well as Frenchmen can use French.

Re: Future and past January 29 2004, 8:15 AM
Bryan says:
I am proficient in metric. In fact, I am probably more able in metric than you are.

metre: Keep on living in your dream world, it must be so much nicer than your screwed up imperial world.

Re: Future and past January 30 2004, 2:03 AM

metre;
To argue on your level. As the saying goes 2 brains are better than one, and by that reasoning 6.3 billion don't take much notice of about 180 million very ignorant people.
>>
Bud:
So you're saying that metric is better because more people think so. A while ago you were explaining why popular opinion is often wrong (you gave examples of slavery and burning witches). Please make up your mind.

metre:
Of course a lot of people do make wrong decisions a lot of the time, as Amercans habitual adherence to outdated and cumbersome units shows. This was the reason I gave you the example of Negroes and women. Then again a lot of people can make the right decision a lot of times, as the 96%+ metric world shows.
Forced or not,I have not heard one of the 6.3 billion metric users complain, about his/her system! I have heard many Americans and Brits complaining about their lousy measurements though! I know of 7 countries that have switched to metric over the last 30 odd years. And you tell me 300 million people know better than the rest? Get real man.

Metre:
If you follow that argument to its final conclusion it means that we should still live in caves. After all we knew no better then and could at best prefer our neighbours cave only!
>>
Bud:
You can obviously have a better life in a home than in a cave. Show me how the rest of the world has better life, economy or science than the US and UK.

metre:
You really do make it easy for yourself. You had no option to switch to a nice home then. According to you we prefer what WE HAVE or USE, so why would you want anything else? That means, we still would be in caves. Don't twist and wriggle

metre:
Let's try once more. Just ask yourself this question: Why are only Britain and America preoccupied with measurement change? NOBODY, BUT NOBODY else is! Is somebody forcing them? Not that I know. So, please tell me the reason why that is so? And if that answer is government, it is still please tell me why?
>>
Bud:
Measurement change may be motivated by a variety of reasons. First off, emotional. (Similar emotion is motivating governments to erradicate the English language in India and China, and motivating other groups to keep it). Second, political pressure by a few special interest groups that would benefit by metrication at public expense.

metre:
"First off emonional". Absolutely right with a tiny minority. including you. In America it would be about 10,000 people generously estimated. Get your facts right, nobody in China dreams of it, to the contrary. You mix that up with the one child policy. For the rest you have to do a lot better than that. Rather pathetic, I would say. I would like to know, who benefitted in Australia, New Zealand, apart from everyone. Please tell me.

Bud:
Here is where I think we differ. You judge a measurement system by comparing it to others. I judge a measurement system on its own merit. Metric is a perfectly good system, and those who are familiar with it are happy with it, but that does not say anything about the English system. The French language has many fewer irregular verbs and structures than the English language, however this does not imply that English is an inferior language, because those who know it can use it just as well as Frenchmen can use French.

metre:
The only way on this earth to find out whether something is better, or not, is by COMPARISON.
Just b/c you are happy driving a horse drawn cart does not mean that no better alternatives exist. Apply that methaphor to your country.
As to the rest. What rubbish, forget about languages in that context, they won't help you, b/c THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INFERIOR LANGUAGE, BUT THERE ARE INFERIOR MEASUREMENT SYSTEMS. I asked you once already, and I ask again, contemplate the purpose of languages, then you know how wrong you are.

One more observation, I am very glad we differ.

metre (eric) - could you please stop recycling the same "non-responses" and answer the flipin' questions?

Continually referring to your own previously stated twisted opinions is *not* answering the questions.

Now be a good fellow and ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!!!

P.S. Please PLEASE tell us that we cannot be proficient in both metric and imperial again? I do love this little gem as it speaks VOLUMES about you!! Especially your age. It also might be a good idea to have a basic grasp of metric before you argue its benefits, know what I mean?

<<
Of course a lot of people do make wrong decisions a lot of the time, as Amercans habitual adherence to outdated and cumbersome units shows. This was the reason I gave you the example of Negroes and women. Then again a lot of people can make the right decision a lot of times, as the 96%+ metric world shows.
>>
Oh, so if you agree with the majority, then you say that the majority makes the right decision. If you disagree with the majority, you say that sometimes the majority makes the wrong decision. Anyone else can do the same.

<<
Forced or not,I have not heard one of the 6.3 billion metric users complain, about his/her system!
>>
I have. A kid in my class mixed up kilo and milli once. (Moved the decimal in the wrong direction.) In imperial this would never have happened. Btw, where do you live and how much contact have you had with people brought up in metric countries?

<<
You had no option to switch to a nice home then. According to you we prefer what WE HAVE or USE, so why would you want anything else? That means, we still would be in caves.
>>
If two things are equal, we prefer what we have. If something else is better, we want it. This gets us back to the merit of the systems.

<<
"First off emonional". Absolutely right with a tiny minority. including you.
>>
You could look at it the other way, and say that metrication in other countries has been driven by emotion, ie the government wanted to "fit in" with the world. All your arguments are reversible.

<<
Get your facts right, nobody in China dreams of it, to the contrary.
>>
I never said that.

<<
I would like to know, who benefitted in Australia, New Zealand, apart from everyone. Please tell me.
>>
The main benefactors were international corporations and engineers. The population may have benefitted, but remember that the entire metrication process was done at taxpayer expense. I don't have any figures on how much the whole thing cost per taxpayer, but everyone paid their share for it, and the main benefactors were the international corporations (who have a lot of lobbying power.)

<<
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INFERIOR LANGUAGE, BUT THERE ARE INFERIOR MEASUREMENT SYSTEMS. I asked you once already, and I ask again, contemplate the purpose of languages, then you know how wrong you are.
>>
I contemplated. I came up with nothing.

<<
One more observation, I am very glad we differ.
>>
Me too. It makes for interesting discussion.

Bud wrote

<<
<<
I would like to know, who benefitted in Australia, New Zealand, apart from everyone. Please tell me.
>>
The main benefactors were international corporations and engineers. The population may have benefitted, but remember that the entire metrication process was done at taxpayer expense.
>>

The fact that international corporations benefitted was not a problem. In the 1970's the Australian and New Zealand economines were based on the export of agricultural and mineral products and the import of oil and mechanical products. By using the metric system they had a much wider choice of what they could import.

<<
The fact that international corporations benefitted was not a problem. In the 1970's the Australian and New Zealand economines were based on the export of agricultural and mineral products and the import of oil and mechanical products. By using the metric system they had a much wider choice of what they could import.
>>
If it was only the industry that benefitted, then only they should have had to pay taxes to pay for metrication. Why was average people's tax money used?

Re: Future and past January 30 2004, 9:49 PM

<<
Of course a lot of people do make wrong decisions a lot of the time, as Amercans habitual adherence to outdated and cumbersome units shows. This was the reason I gave you the example of Negroes and women. Then again a lot of people can make the right decision a lot of times, as the 96%+ metric world shows.
>>
Oh, so if you agree with the majority, then you say that the majority makes the right decision. If you disagree with the majority, you say that sometimes the majority makes the wrong decision. Anyone else can do the same.

metre:
I simply stated that people make right and wrong decisions. Are you disputing that? Let's put into context. I maintained from the start that the US was wrong to attack Iraq b/c in my opinion, based on better informed people's observation, there were none. The majority of Yankees still think today that the invasion was justified. It bothers them little that no WMD have and will be found. Now they are quite happy to accept that the disposal of Saddam as the real motive. No matter what anyone says, my and many other peoples opinion was and is right. I have the same conviction with metric superiority and share that opinion with 6.3+ billion people. Anything wrong with that?
<<
Forced or not,I have not heard one of the 6.3 billion metric users complain, about his/her system!
>>
I have. A kid in my class mixed up kilo and milli once. (Moved the decimal in the wrong direction.) In imperial this would never have happened. Btw, where do you live and how much contact have you had with people brought up in metric countries?

metre:
Oh dear oh dear, now there is a real compelling reason to change to imperial. Reminds me actually of the Mars probe, another reason to revert back to imperial misery. To tell you the truth it is getting really tedious to argue with people clutching straws.

<<
You had no option to switch to a nice home then. According to you we prefer what WE HAVE or USE, so why would you want anything else? That means, we still would be in caves.
>>
If two things are equal, we prefer what we have. If something else is better, we want it. This gets us back to the merit of the systems.

metre:
Others have compared. Ignorant Americans and only ignorant AmericansAmericans you said don't need to b/c they know already that their system is so much better.

metre:
"First off emonional". Absolutely right with a tiny minority. including you.
>>
You could look at it the other way, and say that metrication in other countries has been driven by emotion, ie the government wanted to "fit in" with the world. All your arguments are reversible.

metre;
What's your hang up with reversible? Are we talking about a love affair here. Get real man.
<<
Get your facts right, nobody in China dreams of it, to the contrary.

Bud;
I never said that.

metre:
Re-read what you said.

metre:
I would like to know, who benefitted in Australia, New Zealand, apart from everyone. Please tell me.

Bud:
The main benefactors were international corporations and engineers. The population may have benefitted, but remember that the entire metrication process was done at taxpayer expense. I don't have any figures on how much the whole thing cost per taxpayer, but everyone paid their share for it, and the main benefactors were the international corporations (who have a lot of lobbying power.)

metre:
Read that carefully: EVERYBODY BENEFITTED, and especially school children and teachers!
Just to show you how far you are off the mark: Had it been for multi national corporations, predominantly British and American in Australia and NewZealand, they would have lobbied hard for retention of crap measurements.
Neither do you know the figure showing how much these nations save year in year out with a decent measuring system, while you and every other American keep on paying the cost of being stuck with a medieval measuring for years to come in more ways than one. Good luck, you get what you deserve.

metre:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INFERIOR LANGUAGE, BUT THERE ARE INFERIOR MEASUREMENT SYSTEMS. I asked you once already, and I ask again, contemplate the purpose of languages, then you know how wrong you are.
>>
Bud:
I contemplated. I came up with nothing.

metre:
No need to argue then, if you dont know what it is you are arguing about.

<<
One more observation, I am very glad we differ.
>>
Me too. It makes for interesting discussion.

metre;
Well everything hast to come to an end and we have reached that point some time ago. Thank you very much

Re: Future and past January 31 2004, 2:38 PM


metre wrote:
I would like to know, who benefitted in Australia, New Zealand, apart from everyone. Please tell me.
>>

Sorry Martin, I asked that question of Bud. My retort to his answer is somewhat different to yours.

<<
Well everything hast to come to an end and we have reached that point some time ago. Thank you very much
>>

You're very welcome.

<<<The majority of Yankees still think today that the invasion was justified. It bothers them little that no WMD have and will be found. Now they are quite happy to accept that the disposal of Saddam as the real motive>>>

Oh dear oh dear.
Not that subject again (his favourite one).

Next he'll be all anti-american!

..

..

..

..

..

D'OH!

Re: Future and past February 2 2004, 8:21 AM

<<
Well everything hast to come to an end and we have reached that point some time ago. Thank you very much
>>

You're very welcome.

Looked at a post on metric sucks, titled metric by John. A young man writes abou his experiencies in a dual measurement world. His piece conveys so much better than I ever can what it feels like to work and live and compare the two systems in real life. Maybe you are interested.

Why don't you post a link

Re: Future and past February 3 2004, 5:14 AM

Bud:
Why don't you post a link

metre:
Sorry, since then he posted his post on Question to BWMA. I am sure you have read it by now.

"His piece conveys so much better than I ever can what it feels like to work and live and ..."

Indeed, it's also comparable in it's "absolute-twaddle-factor".

See how its been shot down by another young person ;-)

(I'm not talking about me there either!)