I have always assumed that the £SD system was based on troy measure, partly because troy is used for measuring precious stones or metals, but mostly because the pennyweight is exactly 1/240 of 1 troy pound (for oblivious Britons born in the 1970s and Americans, £1 = 240d [abbreviation for penny is ‘d’]). Someone please let me know if I am wrong.

Now, I have a question. 240 is an excellent number to divide your currency by since it lends itself, in turn, to division by an unusually large quantity of numbers. Is there any particular reason (aside from the fact that it’s always been done) that the pound is divided into 20 shillings of 12 pennies each? I was toying with the idea (don’t ask why) of dividing a pound into 12 shillings of 20 pennies each. That way, each shilling would weigh one troy ounce of silver and be of equivalent value to the silver dollar.

By the way, can anyone recommend any good £SD webpages?

The development of the English coinage took a long time. If we ignore the Roman coins - coins were hardly used during the dark ages, the first [silver] pennies made their appearance in Anglo-Saxon times [780AD]. For many centuries pennies were the only coin in circulation. Edward I introduced the groat (4d), the half-penny and farthign in about 1270. The first shillings appeared in the reign of Edward VI after a devaluation.

Rather than to give a full detail of the development of the English coinage, I think htat one can see how haphazrd the development was.

AS regards a website, use a search engine with the word "numismatics" and yo might get something. Otherwise take a walk to your local library and see if they have a copy of Seaby's catalogue.

If the pound was divided into 12 shillings, each would be one fine ounce of silver, and equal to the silver dollar, but remember that the value of money is constantly changing against both precious metals and other currencies, therefore such "advantages" are really of no practical use, although they are appealing mathematically.

re: "Is there any particular reason (aside from the fact that it’s always been done) that the pound is divided into 20 shillings of 12 pennies each?"

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REPLY: I can't answer that but reply as follows. The pound - which was a pound weight of silver - was first divided into 240 by King Offa, King of Mercia - he who built Offa's Dyke.

At that time the silver used for the pound weight/value and generally for weights and currency was mined in the Ochil Hills, just east of Stirling, Scotland.

So when he divided the pound - which was then manufactured into a cylindrical bar - into 240 thin slivers, they became known as 'sterlings', from which we get 'the pound sterling'. And that was the origin of 240 pence in the pound - though I'm not sure when they were first called pennies.

Whilst some on this board might scoff at people who lived 1,300 years ago, they knew what they were doing and I have little doubt that the number 240 was chosen precisely because of its divisibilty.

There was a wonderful link between currency, weights and measurements. For example, the penny was precisely 1.2" long and the halfpenny precisley 1" long, enabling one to perform measurements - and weigh things - using coins. I remember we raised charity funds at school, for example, by creating a mile of pennies. The weights of various coins in the British currency system were also calculated so that a round number of coins weighed an exact number of pounds, quarter pounds, ounces etc. It was all a beautiful fit.

Decimal currency destroyed most of these links and the euro would be another final break with this fascinating history of our coinage.

The pound is, I think, the oldest currency in the world continuously in use.

It has also been, over time, the most stable.


P.S. The Queen Mother Centenary £5 silver coin weighs precisely one ounce - an elegant legacy of our once beautiful, integrated, system of weights and measures

In Saxon times they used the Tower Pound of 450 grains per ounce, 5400 grains per pound.

Actually, I won't go into it- as Martin says, it was extremely haphazard affair. Basically, though, if you ask me, it might make more sense to base a currency on avoird. weights these days. so... 16 pennies/drams to a shlling/ounce, 16 ounces/shillings to a pound.

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
So when he divided the pound - which was then manufactured into a cylindrical bar - into 240 thin slivers, they became known as 'sterlings', from which we get 'the pound sterling'. And that was the origin of 240 pence in the pound - though I'm not sure when they were first called pennies.

Whilst some on this board might scoff at people who lived 1,300 years ago, they knew what they were doing and I have little doubt that the number 240 was chosen precisely because of its divisibilty.

There was a wonderful link between currency, weights and measurements. For example, the penny was precisely 1.2" long and the halfpenny precisley 1" long, enabling one to perform measurements - and weigh things - using coins.
>>

What Tony forgot to mention was that the 1.2in pennies were not the silver pennies that were introduced by Offa, but were copper pennies that were in circulation between 1860 and 1971.

Although, it should be boted that a one ounce shilling (troy or avoird.), would be far too large. Making the shilling more like 4 drams would be better.

tony, penny is a Germanic word of unknown origin. IT is related to pfennig (German currency before the Euro, with the mark), but the actual origins of the word are unkown.

The "d" symbol for penny comes from denarius (Latin coin) or Denier (French). It should be noted that the French also once had a currency of:

12 denier to 1 sou
20 sou to 1 livre

Niles,

Regarding your question of March 31st @ 12.19 a.m.

''I have always assumed that the L.s.d.f. system was based on troy weight, partly because troy weight is used for measuring precious stones & precious metals, but mostly because 1 troy dwt. is exactly 1/240 of 1 troy lb. (For those Britanic Isl. born in the 70s & Nth. Americans, 1L. = 240d.) Now, I have some questions. Why is 1 troy lb. divided into 12 troy oz. & 240 troy dwt. & 960 units of 6 gr.? And why is 1L. divided into 20s. & 240d. & 960f.? Because if 1L. was divided into 12 parts instead of 20 parts, then the 1s. would be 1 troy oz. sterling, which would be equal to 1$.''

Niles, the no. is not 240, it's 960.

1L. = 960f.
1 cu.' = 960 fl.oz.

Niles, all currencies have four units, not three.

pound, shilling, penny, farthing
1L. = 960f.
dollar, dime, cent, mill
1$ = 1000m.

Why the 1 troy lb. uses 12 parts, and 1L. uses 20 parts, is not known. It is assumed that 12 parts are used for the 1 troy lb. because it is easier to handle in the market place. It is assumed that 20 parts are used for the 1L. because it is easier to count in the ledger. Remember that 20 is simply two tens.

Niles, you must be dreaming if you think a dollar was ever 1 troy oz. of anything. Yes, in 1804 the Bank of England did put out restrikes of the mexican dollar, stamped:

''1804 Bank of England Five Shillings Dollar''

I don't know how they got away with it, maybe because it was war time, but it only had 90% of the silver of the five shillings crown. So the 1804 dollar was worth 4s. 6d., NOT 5s. Whatever the silver content, the 1804 dollar coin never weighed more than 420 gr. That's a long ways short of 1 troy oz.

1st U.S. dollar
410 5/32 gr. coin (15/16 av.oz. coin) @ .915 fine
375 gr. silver content

2nd U.S. dollar
416 gr. coin @ .900 fine
374.40 gr. silver content

3rd U.S. dollar
416 gr. coin @ .893 fine
371.25 gr. silver content

4 U.S. dollar
412 1/2 gr. coin @ .900 fine
371.25 gr. silver content

U.S. trade dollar (China trade only)
420 gr. coin @ .900 fine
378 gr. silver content

Peruvian dollar
420 gr. coin @ .917 fine
385 gr. silver content

Mexican dollar
420 gr. coin @ .925 fine (sterling silver)
388.50 gr. silver content

Maria Theresa dollar
429.60 gr. coin @ .838 fine
360 gr. silver content

old England crown (5s. coin)
480 gr. coin (1 troy oz. coin) @ .938 fine
450 gr. silver content (1 tower oz. silver content)

new United Kingdom crown (5s. coin)
437 1/2 gr. coin (1 av.oz. coin) @ .925 fine (sterling silver)
404.6875 gr. silver content

More info @

http://www.weights-and-measures.com

And topics:

Troy Weight
Tower Weight
old Avoirdupois Weight
New Avoirdupois Weight
Dollar Weight
High Karat
Common Currency
United States Bank of North America Currency

Response to xcole

What an odd person… Your hypothesis regarding the 20s division was potentially helpful, but I don’t know how to judge it in light of some of the other statements you made. Everyone else, you have been very informative. Thanks.

xcole said:
“…all currencies have four units, not three.”

response:
Riiight… that’s why the Yen is divided into… what? Oh, 100 sen -- but those aren’t used anymore. Now what were those larger Yen-based denominations? Hmmm… 50 Yen, 500 Yen, 10,000 Yen… Nope, I don’t see any additional units there.

xcole said:
“you must be dreaming if you think a dollar was ever 1 troy oz. of anything.”

response:
Well, I must be dreaming right now since I am looking at a 2002 American eagle silver dollar. It has a face value of One Dollar and contains one ounce of fine silver (currently worth almost ten of the $1 Reserve Notes that pass for currency here).

I forgot to fill in the name-slot. For those of you who are unfamiliar with latin, Nigellus is Niles... although I seem to remember the two names having different meanings in Gaelic and Latin.

Niles,

Regarding your two statements of April 1st @ 2.13 a.m.

FIRST:
''Xcole said that all currencies have four units, not three. Wryyyyght, that's why the yen is divided into, what? Oh yeah, 100 sen, but those aren't used any more. Now what were those larger yen based denominations? Hoooo Huuuu Hmmmm, 5 yen, 50 yen, 500 yen, 5000 yen, 50000 yen, 500000 yen, 5000000 yen. Nopey, dopey, I don't see any additional units there.''

Niles: but those aren't used any more? Now ain't that just too bad, 'cause you're gitting 'em all right now:

yen, juu, sen, rin

SECOND:
''Xcole also said I must be dreaming if I thought a dollar was ever 1 troy oz. of anything. Well, I must be dreaming right now since I am looking at a 2002 United States eagle/dollar/gold/silver/medal/coin. Yeah, I'm getting pretty confused right now, but then I must be dreaming right now. Whatever, it has a face value of 1$, the coin weighs 1 troy oz., and it's .999 fine. (It's currently worth almost 10 of the 1$ bank notes that pass for currency here in Dreamland.)''

Niles:
eagle?
dollar?
eagle?
dollar?
eagle?
dollar?
eagle?
dollar?
gold?
silver?
gold?
silver?
gold?
silver
gold?
silver?
medal?
coin?
medal?
coin?
medal?
coin?
medal?
coin?

Info @

http://www.weights-and-measures.com

And topic:

Common Currency
United States Bank of North America Currency

P.S.
Niles,
Still dreaming?

Those mushrooms are sold legally in Amsterdam

Sumptus censum ne superet.

The last post, in Latin, reminds me of a famous line in Michael Shrimpton's lengthy legal advice on the Steve Thoburn case. He is well known for using Latin phrases in almost every paragraph of his advices.

One line towards the end of his written Opinion on Weights and Measures, which comes just after he had used two Latin phrases in quick succession, runs as follows:

"Some people say I use to many Latin expressions in my advices. To which I reply: 'Mea Culpa'".

THE First English coins were struck late in the 7th Century ( 600s) and were called “styc[c]as” ( STUHK-as, singular “stycce”) a word that means, so far as anyone can tell, “bits, small pieces”. The first English pennies appear in AD 774, the work of Kentish mints. Throughout most of the pre-Conquest period the shilling was simply a unit of account, not a coin. For instance there was a Kentish shilling of twenty pence and a fourpenny shilling in Mercia and early Wessex, a fivepenny one in later Wessex.

The etymology of “penny” is indeed uncertain. Since it has equivalents in other germanic languages, it may be assumed to go back to the ‘Zero Period’, ie. was part of the vocabulary Old English took with it when it broke away from Old Saxon in the Fifth Century. Yet its root ‘pand-‘ has no satisfactory etymology in any earlier germanic language, hence is suspected of being a borrowing from Latin.

The etymology of “shilling” is more uncertain still. The suffix “-ing” is the same as that in “farthing”, suggesting it originated as a division of something. We have only Norse equivalents to suggest that the “shill-“ could mean something like “change, money”, as if that was giving away a lot to the Russians.


King Offa’s much under-rated currency reform set the standard weight and purity of sterling until the fourteenth century, leaving Continental mints to play catchup. Ironically it was the high reputation enjoyed by English currency ( Old English silver pennies have been found as far afield as Moscow), spreading our reputation for being a wealthy land, that helped draw the Vikings down on us. So many hoards of them have been found in Scandinavia, there are now more Old English silver pennies there than in England!

I have no info’ on whether he divided the pound up into 240 pennies, though. If memory serves, that predates his reign.


IF A chance to restore shillings and pence popped up, my vote would be simply to print a New Pound worth twenty old pounds. After all, the decimalisers have proven you can issue two and a half new pence worth an old sixpence. The pound coin would then give way to the new shilling, the ten pound note to the new ten shilling note. Likewise the fifty pence piece would roughly correspond to a new sixpence, the restored new penny would roughly correspond to the ten pence piece, the new ha’penny to the five pence piece, the new farthing to the two pence piece.

Extrmely interesting post, Chambverlain. also, Iagree on the last section re: reintroduction of LSD.

..and magic mushrooms