I've heard it said that kids of a young age don't grasp big numbers - which is an obvious statement.

You learn to count gradually as you grow.

I've read an item once that said that kids find it easier to help mum with the cooking by using imperial - this being because the numbers stay low (rather than hundreds of this ann hundreds of that) and comparing figures like 4 oz and the figure "4" on a weighing scale is simply for a child.

This is one of many occasions where imperial is simpler than metric (ie scaling)

Anyone got any comments on this?

(and I don't mean "kids can't read rulers" or "witches getting burned while sailing off the edge of the world" type of nonsense)

Indeed.
I rembering reading of a letter a mother had sent to the BBC complaining that their children's recipe books were in metric and the fact that her 5 year old daughter could understand 4oz of this and 1 spoon of that, but ask her to measure 150 French nonsenses of something and she just looked blank.

The BBC spewed forth some idealistic nonsense in repsonse, completely missing the point.

Perhaps we'll be treated (or metred) to some such in reponse to this.

I unashamedly advocate and support the use of the metric system for all measurement and for people of all ages.

I fully accept that young children (academic year 1 or 2) who's experience of number may limit them in certain ways at that particular stage of their development.

Professionaly trained primary school teachers will have their means of exercising children's knowledge in measurement in such a way as to build on what they have been taught.

But if they can't yet count you can't expect them to read ordinary kitchen scales in whatever system of units!!

How long ago were you a child?

or

Do you have children?

I have the experience of havign a wife who is a nursery school teacher and a few years ago I was a governor of an infants school.

When children enter infant school (just before their fifth birthday), they should be able to count up to 10. When they go up to junior shcool (aged 8) they should be able to count up to 1000. At that age (8) they are beginning to understand the concept of weighing things.

It's not difficult at all to use metric when cooking.
1 cup = 250 ml
4 cups = 1 litre
2 cups of flour = 1/4 kg
1 cup of brown sugar = 1/4 kg
1 cup of rice = 1/4 kg

So, tell me, what's so difficult about that ?

BTW: What's the easier number: 200°C or 400°F ? (hehe)

<<
1 cup = 250 ml
4 cups = 1 litre
2 cups of flour = 1/4 kg
1 cup of brown sugar = 1/4 kg
1 cup of rice = 1/4 kg
>>

On the left side, all you need is a measuring cup and you can measure everything in one shot. On the right, you would need a 1-liter bottle, on which you would have to find the 250-mL mark, and you would need to divide 1000 by 4 and find the 250-g mark on your scale. On the left side, you wouldn't even need a scale.

Which is easier 200 C or 400 F? I say that depends what country you live in and which system of measure you use more often.

I would say they are both equally simple no matter which country you live in. As far as cooking is concerned, all you have to do is read the cookbook and set the oven to the temperature it states. This is equally easy to do in either system.

<<<her 5 year old daughter could understand 4oz of this and 1 spoon of that, but ask her to measure 150 French nonsenses of something and she just looked blank. >>>

As an adult you can choose which system you wish to use, but forcing a child to use an obsolete system is extremely selfish. By the time that 5 yr old child goes shopping she will never buy any food in imperial measurements. She will not even see the imperial measurements in tiny writing in brackets.

Mind you, I don't hold out much hope of a good upbringing for a child born to parents who refuse to use something because they think its French..

<<
Mind you, I don't hold out much hope of a good upbringing for a child born to parents who refuse to use something because they think its French..
>>

Seventeen scientists or engineers are commemorated by having SI units named after them. Six were British, four were German and three were French.

<<<As an adult you can choose which system you wish to use, but forcing a child to use an obsolete system is extremely selfish. By the time that 5 yr old child goes shopping she will never buy any food in imperial measurements. She will not even see the imperial measurements in tiny writing in brackets.>>>

The first sentence is just daft eric-style nonsense.
The rest is just wishful thinking on your part! :-)

BTW - notice that eric won't post here on this thread? Maybe it has something to do with the person who started the thread?

"Nice predictable experiment!"

Conrad - your fractioning of metric might be something that you do but the "old-style" scales (you know, brass dish on the left platform to put weights on on the right) has imperial in wholes and fractions there-of.

The metric weights that you can send off for does not do this fractionizing.

BTW - we have not sent off for them! (wink wink)

Andy wrote:
As an adult you can choose which system you wish to use, but forcing a child to use an obsolete system is extremely selfish

S.Cruple replies:
The whole point is the child CANNOT use metric because how many recipes have number less than 20 (fingers and toes) so it's imperial or nothing.

<<<The first sentence is just daft eric-style nonsense.
The rest is just wishful thinking on your part! :-)>>>

I'm not saying the imperial system is obsolete - that would be eric-style nonsense - but like it or not parts of it are becoming obsolete so why deliberately pass on the confusion we have had to deal with to another generation?

<<<The whole point is the child CANNOT use metric because how many recipes have number less than 20 (fingers and toes) so it's imperial or nothing.>>>

Yes, using ounces does give smaller numbers, so a child not yet able to count beyond 20 might find it easier. That is a very weak argument though. I think generally kids get to grips with higher numbers before they start to properly 'use' a measurement system eg divideing between kg/g or lbs/oz etc

Whatever the other arguments, I think most people on the imperial side concede that metric is easier to learn (somehting to do with those fingers and toes, maybe..?)

<<<Seventeen scientists or engineers are commemorated by having SI units named after them. Six were British, four were German and three were French.>>>

Yeah lets ditch this french avoirdupois nonsense and start using the proper British system.

"On the left side, all you need is a measuring cup and you can measure everything in one shot. On the right, you would need a 1-liter bottle, on which you would have to find the 250-mL mark, and you would need to divide 1000 by 4 and find the 250-g mark on your scale. On the left side, you wouldn't even need a scale."

Funny no one on the metric side responded to this, but Bud is right.

Metric cooking requires the following:

Measuring cup
Scale
Measuring spoons

USC cooking requires the following:

Measuring cup
Measuring spoons

Everything in USC cooking is done by volume, it's quite convenient. I can make a whole cake with a one cup measure and a one teaspoon measure. I would say that metric cooking could be that easy if the weights of items were changed to volumes.

andy, it is suprfluity, though: if you are just goign to use binary fractios of the kilogram or binary multiples of 25 grams (very cmmon pracitces), why not just go Imperial and shorten the numbers? If it is 100 grams, why not make it one (or 4, the approximate Imp. equiv.)

I agree, its more convenient to have small numbers - so for simple cooking I can see the advantage of imperial espescially if used like in the US with cups - I don't think people use cups in Britain

<<<Whatever the other arguments, I think most people on the imperial side concede that metric is easier to learn (somehting to do with those fingers and toes, maybe..?)>>>

"Easier to learn" is too broad a comment.

Easier to take on the divisional qualities (ie the 10 bas step up, mm, cm, dm, m, etc etc)

But as my original eric-less post suggests, for base numbering imperial sort of "wins" due to it's attempt at keeping the numbers low. This is how it evolved. This is what makes the metric revolutionary system different to the imperial evolutionary units (rather than "system").

MattS: In the UK we *tend* to use weights instead of volumes - hence my scales that I mentioned.

See our best selling chef here for examples:

http://www.delia-online.com/

I think it should be pointed out here that Delia is one of very few TV chefs in Britain that persist in using imperial measures

She is generally seen as old-fashioned and I am surprised if she is still that popular

certainly all the cool new chefs (most of them very annoying, admittedly!) are using metric measures only these days

Andy - that's not true.

The books show both.

Delia - i admit - uses only imperial *ON TV* but even she has metric in her books (and online).

Food stuff is generally taken up by the UKTv network now and there is a young brother team that only uses imperial.

I can't remember their names, chiefly because cooking really doesn't interest me.

Other chefs use both (except that bl**dy idiot "Jamie Oliver I work for Sainsburys" - who is the metric equiv of Delia's stubborness)

The missus does all that.

The last line, btw, was meant to be one sentence back. That's my re-editing to blame for that.

<<She is generally seen as old-fashioned and I am surprised if she is still that popular>>

Continues to be the best selling cookery book of all time ("How to cook").

Not as big as the Bible though!

I don't know- I use a jug for cooking that has weight estimates for flour and sugar on it, as well as volumetric units. Its units are ounces and grams (of flour and sugar), and fluidounces, pints, cups, millilitres and litres. I actually use cups, as I know my cups are 10 floz- the smaller ones are about 1/3 pint, though.

Maybe I am the exception rather than the rule, though.

In any case, I prefer US cooking measures.

Andy:
As an adult you can choose which system you wish to use, but forcing a child to use an obsolete system is extremely selfish. By the time that 5 yr old child goes shopping she will never buy any food in imperial measurements. She will not even see the imperial measurements in tiny writing in brackets.

metre:
My, my, you are easily intimitated by Mr. dim-wit.

Children waste precious time blah June 7 2004, 1:50 PM


Scruple?
Andy wrote:
As an adult you can choose which system you wish to use, but forcing a child to use an obsolete system is extremely selfish

S.Cruple replies:
The whole point is the child CANNOT use metric because how many recipes have number less than 20 (fingers and toes) so it's imperial or nothing.

metre:
Blow me down, I never knew the metric world was handicapped like this. Then again, seen realistically if children would still have to struggle with antiquated, obsolete units they wouldn't have time to do nice things like baking cakes, would they?

Bryan: "I don't know- I use a jug for cooking that has weight estimates "

Check out what I said to Matt: "In the UK we *tend* to use weights instead of volumes"

ie I was emphasising that its not absolute.

eric (metre): Thank you for coming into and contributing to my debate. It's great to have your ideas and opinions here.

However calling Andy a "dimwit" is hardly a nice thing to do to a pro-metric is it?

Stick to just calling me names like that.

That way you can continue to prove, via name-calling, that your opinion is the only correct opinion.

After all, you've convinced all of us of this, especially me.