You're all invited...

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The Customary Measures Society, together with Britain’s first-ever ‘metric martyr’, Dave Stephens, invite you to:

“1,827 not out”

at The Cricketers, High Street, Hornchurch, on

Thursday, 6 January 2005 from 12.00

Speeches at 1pm

Underground: Take District Line to Hornchurch
British Rail: Liverpool Street to Romford, change at Romford and alight at Emerson Park

· Free buffet provided by Customary Measures Society.
· Hear ‘Meat at Mandy’s’ butcher Dave Stephens speak on 5 years’ resistance to compulsory metrication.
· Get a copy of the Customary Measures Society’s report: “Weights and Measures: Britain’s Way Ahead”.
· Join the fight to keep Britain’s weights and measures.

The event is called ‘1,827 not out’ because it will be 1,827 days - exactly five years - since Dave Stephens became the first trader to receive an Infringement Notice (from Southend Council), accusing him of committing a crime by selling meat in his butcher’s shop by the pound. That day, January 6th 2000, Dave was interviewed by news media around the world. One was the BBC’s John Humphrys, who ridiculed his stand and said it would be ‘over in weeks’. Dave will explain how he’s kept the Trading Standards Officers of Essex and Havering at bay for 1,827 days.

Before then, Tony Bennett M.A. and Derek Norman of the Customary Measures Society will launch their report: “Weights and Measures: Britain’s Way Ahead”. In 60 pages, with 10 pages of full colour photos, it (a) analyses why government attempts to ‘metricate’ Britain have only succeeded by force (b) explains why the government should stop all further metric enforcement, and (c) makes 12 clear recommendations for action. It answers in full the report: “A Very British Mess”, published by the U.K. Metric Association in July, which called for draconian measures, plus severe criminal penalties, to force through compulsory metrication.

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This event is organised jointly by Graham Williamson, Campaign Manager of Dave Stephens, and the Customary Measures Society

CONTACTS:
Graham Williamson 01708 453794 or 07970 455 445
Dave Stephens: Shop 01708 441146 Home 01268 460468

Customary Measures Society: Tony Bennett 01279 635789 or 07835 716537 or Derek Norman 01480 435837
British Weights and Measures Association:
Press Officer David Delaney 01544 267197
Chairman Mike Plumbe 01424 713737

Tony,

I'll try to make it as I would appreciate an opportunity to meet in person and exchange views of the way forward.

I would come, but as I don't know anyone here in the flesh I would feel a little odd.

Someone please invite Xcole.

Press release re: '1,827 NOT OUT:

Released 8pm, 29 December 2004

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To: Press, TV, other media and colleagues

The 'Metric Martyrs' story has been one of the great 'human interest' stories of the past 5 years - and for many, it symbolises the increasing impotence of the British Parliament and the British people against the transfer of power to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. And it's a great 'little man' v. 'big power' story, of course - except of course that Dave is a typical stocky British butcher and most Trading Standards Officers wouldn't dare try to nick his Imperial scales from his shop.

The very first 'metric martyr', butcher Dave Stephens, is celebrating five years of resistance to compulsory metrication at The Cricketers, Hornchurch, Essex, on Thursday 6th January 2005, start 12 noon, speeches at 1pm. [5 minutes walk from Hornchurch station on the District line). Before 12 noon, Dave will be having a series of events at his shop at 117 High Street, Hornchurch.

The event is to celebrate 1,827 successful days of resistance since he was sent an Infringement Notice by Southend Borough Council on 6 Janaury 2000. So we're calling the event - to be held at 'the Cricketers' - '1,827 not out'.

And the event will also highlight that there are just 5 more years to go until this Labour government bans the words 'pound' and 'ounce' from being seen or used in shops, under a Regulation due to take effect on 1 January 2010. It will be a crime to display the word 'pound', even if you are weighing and selling by the kilo.

To mark this historic occasion, and also to counteract the recent report of the U.K. Metric Association, the Customary Measures Society is using this occasion to launch its 60-page report: "Weights and Measures: Britain's Way Ahead".

The UKMA report, 'A Very British Mess", was published on 7 July and there was massive media covergae over the following 2 days of UKMA's Patron and Chief Spokesman, Lord Howe, on every channel, urging the extermination of British weights and measures without delay in order to 'complete the process of metrication'. He advocated the creation of further crimes to force the British to accept metric.

Given the press and media's duty to ensure fair and impartial coverage, we look for an equally fair and full coverage of the case for keeping British weights and measures, which is set out in our report.

Copies of the summary (2 pages), recommendations (1 page) or a draft of the entire report are available from:

Tony Bennett
Secretary,
Customary Measures Society
66 Chippingfield
HARLOW
Essex
CM17 0DJ
Tel: 01279 635789 or 07835 716537
[or 'phone CMS Chairman Derek Norman 01480 435837].

Other contacts are given in the flyer for the event, reproduced above on this thread

How much is the 60pg report (to buy a copy)?

Bryan,

Visit http://bookmarkphysics.iop.org/bookpge.htm?book=1541p for an order form. (£10).

Martin - why would Bryan spend 10 quid on that publication when he could easily spend about 20p getting equivalent accurate journalism from "The Mirror" ?

I was talking about Tony's report.

I knew that, Bryan. But I wanted the opportunity of belittling the UKMA's 'effort' and Martin handed the opportunity straight to me.

With the added bonus that he probably knew which publication you meant all along.

The Report: "Weights and Measures: Britain's Way Ahead", is available, price £4 *including postage* from me at: 66 Chippingfield, HARLOW, Essex, CM17 0DJ; cheques payable to "Tony Bennett" please. Enquiries 01279 635789.

Copies will be charged at £2 only on Thursday at the launch. The famous Active Resistance to Metrication postcards will also be on sale

I know this is completely off topic but i wanted to ask

Is Tony B. in the Metric Martyrs picture on the BWMA homepage? I was looking online for anti metrication stuff and I thought i saw a picture of him, and the person on the Metric Martyrs picture looks similar.

No, that is not Tony.

SteveH wrote

<<
I knew that, Bryan. But I wanted the opportunity of belittling the UKMA's 'effort' and Martin handed the opportunity straight to me.
>>

I notice that the distribution of the UKMA report is being handled by the Institute of Physics - a respected learned society that has a royal charter. In contrast Tony Bennett is handling the sale of "Weights and Measures: Britain's Way Ahead" and has not even set up a separate bank account to process it.

Metric is supported by the establishment (where's the mystery?)

If metrication is supported by the establishment, then those who are advocating a return to or a retention of the Imperial system for everyday purposes are doing a dis-service to those who are not memebers of the establishment as they are trying to drive a wedge between the two classes.

You should note the word "everyday use" - I have no problem with historical monuments and the like displaying Imperial units, also I have no problem with "Victorian Sweet Shops" using lbs/oz and £sd provided that the use of these obsolete units are for novelty or educational puroses.

<<<I notice that the distribution of the UKMA report is being handled by the Institute of Physics - a respected learned society that has a royal charter. In contrast Tony Bennett is handling the sale of "Weights and Measures: Britain's Way Ahead" and has not even set up a separate bank account to process it.>>>>

Good point - people tend to respect establishments and institutes and think very lowly about ordinary people.

Hence the reason why the likes of easyJet are hated, Virgin PLC is despised and papers like the Sun have no readership.

And similarly BT, "New Labour", The Guardian etc are looked upto and admired by everyone.



<<<<<You should note the word "everyday use" - I have no problem with historical monuments and the like displaying Imperial units, also I have no problem with "Victorian Sweet Shops" using lbs/oz and £sd provided that the use of these obsolete units are for novelty or educational puroses.>>>>

Hmm - thats a good point too - hence the reason why most people in Tesco's buy "novelty ham" and "joke cheese" or go to learn about loose apples.

Your posts are getting increasingly poncy, martin. Soon we'll have to address you as "Sir" for being so much higher than us.

SteveH wrote

<<
Good point - people tend to respect establishments and institutes and think very lowly about ordinary people
>>

The reason is very simple - if somebody proposes a theory and his peers review the theory before it is published, then a lot of stupid theories will be filtered out. However, if ordinary people publish theories without having them reviewed, there is no end of trash that can be generated - one only needs to see the trash available on the Internet.

re (martin): "...also I have no problem with "Victorian Sweet Shops" using lbs/oz and £sd provided that the use of these obsolete units are [sic] for novelty or educational purposes".


Martin to Beefeater waitress, after noticing 8oz., 10oz. and 12oz. steaks on the menu: "Get me the manager, I wish to make a complaint about the inappropriate use of these obsolete units"

re (martin): "...if somebody proposes a theory and his peers review the theory before it is published, then a lot of stupid theories will be filtered out. However, if ordinary people publish theories without having them reviewed, there is no end of trash that can be generated - one only needs to see the trash available on the Internet".


REPLY: Fortunate, then, that the Customary Measures Society's report: "Weights and Measures: Britain's Way Ahead" is absolutely crammed full of facts on every page - inconvenient things like repeated surveys showing 80%-plus of British people using - and preferring - Imperial weights and measures. Unlike the UKMA report, which is notable mainly for the number of times it uses words like 'compulsion', 'enforcement' and 'criminal penalties'

Martin, may I suggest to someone who I believe has intelligence (ie, you) that you actually purchase the book in question and read it before passing judgement on it.

Call me simple, but before I made comments about the UKMA's piece of (to be honest) "trash" I actually (get this...) "READ" the document.

Just a small but massive point - if you get my juxtapose.

Tony: "REPLY: Fortunate, then, that the Customary Measures Society's report: "Weights and Measures: Britain's Way Ahead" is absolutely crammed full of facts on every page - inconvenient things like repeated surveys showing 80%-plus of British people using - and preferring - Imperial weights and measures. Unlike the UKMA report, which is notable mainly for the number of times it uses words like 'compulsion', 'enforcement' and 'criminal penalties'"

Stan: Can you give at least one example where the UKMA report uses the phrase "criminal penalties"?

In answer to Stan's point, here is an extract from Appendix 5 of the Customary Measures Society's Report...the actual words 'criminal penalties' are not to be found - but the word "illegal" is both used and implied in many instances

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Appendix 5 - ‘The Language of Force’

“The language of force” - examples of the authoritarian and repressive content of the UKMA report.

For those who have not read the U.K. Metric Association Report, we reprint below just a few examples of its ‘enforcement mentality’:


ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


“The only solution is to complete the changeover to metric - and as swiftly and cleanly as possible” - Lord Howe, Foreword

“We need to carry through a necessary reform in a decisive and co-ordinated manner” - page 8

“We must standardise on one single system as soon as possible” - page 8

“The metric changeover can be swiftly and painlessly completed…”- page 9

“We must declare unequivocally that all Imperial measures will be phased out for official use, require public agencies to be fully metric, phase out Imperial units in property transactions, weather reports, the National Health Service and clothing sizes, set targets and timetables, and enact and enforce any necessary legislation…given full and rapid commitment by the Government, this programme could be achieved within three to five years” - page 9

“We must implement the full adoption of the international metric system from all official, trade, legal, contractual and other purposes as soon as practicable by taking the necessary action to resolve the current unacceptable situation - page 11

“The voluntary approach has failed” - page 23

“We must resolve the situation, standardise on one single system and cease using the other system, complete the changeover to the metric system and discontinue the use of Imperial units" - page 29

“Weights and Measures law - like all laws - should be enforced, even if, regrettably, this entails prosecuting unfortunate market traders who have naively allow themselves to be used for a political stunt” - page 34

“It is not in the national interest that irresponsible opposition should continue to obstruct a necessary reform” - page 37

“We must declare unequivocally that all Imperial measures will be phased out for official use, empower a cross-departmental authority to help manage the change, require all publicly-funded agencies, including charities, to work towards becoming exclusively metric, set timetables and target dates for completion, introduce any necessary legislation and ensure that it is enforced” - page 38

“…if the government is seriously committed to completing the metric changeover, then it must itself set a good example and require (not simply advise) all its Civil Service Departments, Agencies and contractors and all bodies to whom it makes grants or loans to work exclusively in metric units…” - page 44

“The existing law on price marking and weighing/measuring loose goods at the point of sale should be enforced. Following the final rejection by the European Court of Human Rights of the appeal by the so-called “metric martyrs”, there is no longer any excuse for local authorities and traders to defer enforcement or compliance action” - page 44

“We must bring advertising explicitly within the scope of the Price Marking Order. It should be illegal to advertise goods for sale giving prices, weights, quantities or other measures exclusively in Imperial units…‘supplementary indications’ should be phased out and then metric units should be the only units permitted in advertisements…” - page 46

“UKMA therefore calls upon the UK Government without further delay to announce the date when the UK’s road signage will be converted to metric…Early 2007 would be a reasonable and achievable target…” - page 47

“The changeover programme will also need to include legislation to revise speed limits, revise various Regulations, including the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions [447 pages of Regulations which stipulate that Imperial units should be used on roads] and the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations to require legible km/h on speedometers…” - page 48

"UKMA believes that the Government should take the lead and make it mandatory for public bodies to use exclusively metric units in weather reports and forecasts, including in their press releases. Wind speed should be shown in kilometres per hour…” - page 49



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Tony Bennett: "In answer to Stan's point, here is an extract from Appendix 5 of the Customary Measures Society's Report...the actual words 'criminal penalties' are not to be found - but the word "illegal" is both used and implied in many instances"

Stan: I am stunned at such a blatant attempt to misrepresent the document to which you refer.

If you don't know any better than to substitute your own inferences with a supposed direct quote then you have no place in honest public debate.

Stan, I see you are nit-picking about the word 'illegal', which *is* used by the UK Metric Association, and the words 'criminal penalties' which I used. You seem to believe in 'honest public debate'.

Perhaps the government's repeated past commitment, and its promises to the electorate, that metrication would only proceed on a voluntary basis - and never compulsorily - as set out below in the 1980 Annual Report of the Metrication Board, is the kind of 'honest public debate' you would approve of:


VERBATIM QUOTE - METRICATION BOARD ANNUAL REPORT 1980:

"From the beginning, a principal feature of Goverment policy was that metrication should be voluntary, that no compulsory powers would be sought, and that the Metrication Board would be advisory only. The vast majority of the metric advances of the past fifteen years have in fact resulted from voluntary decisions and actions. The Metrication Board has helped with co-ordination, publicity and consumer information..."

If you ask the last directory of the Metrication Board, James Humble, whether he sought compulsory measures he will tell you that he did precisely that, in fact an Order was prepared in the late 70s but a nervous Labour government put it off until after the general election.

http://www.ukma.org.uk/press/humble.htm

Folks - I just thought you'd like to know that euric (aka [a list]) is copying and pasting huge swathes of this to the USMA listserv site.

Anyone give him permission?

re (Stan): "If you ask the last Director of the Metrication Board, James Humble, whether he sought compulsory measures he will tell you that he did precisely that.."

REPLY: Making my point. The government has repeatedly stated that metrication will only proceed voluntarily. Political parties said that in their election manifestos. Yet when it comes to the crunch, only compulsion will force through metrication.

Look at the schools, as a classic example. Did schools 'vountarily' decide that all children must be taught, and examined, only in metric? No, the government, who loudly proclaimed 'only voluntary metrication', forced them to do it. Hence paragraph after paragraph in the UKMA Report, 'A Very British Mess', about resorting to compulsion

<<Look at the schools, as a classic example. Did schools 'vountarily' decide that all children must be taught, and examined, only in metric? >>

To be fair, Tony, Imperial was reintroduced into the curriculum in the 90's.

Agreed not as the defacto unit, but its still there

When the Wilson government announced its intention to metricate Britain, it may have proclaimed that it would be achieved (or endevour to do so) by voluntary means.

In that context voluntary only referred to the means of doing it not the objective.

That's not the same as saying that Britain would go metric only as far as it wanted to and can halt the process whenever they feel like it, leaving it in the half baked mess we see today. That would be crazy!

And yet that's just what happened.

By the mid - late seventies it had become clear that the last hurdle in the industrial and commercial sector, namely the retail sector, would not achieve full metrication without a definite cut-off date for imperial pricing. All players in the field had to be sure everyone would comply at the same time. Hence the element of compulsion.

You see the trouble with our little debate here on this forum is that we spend half our time arguing at cross purposes.

If you don't believe in metrication at all then whether it's by purely voluntary means or involves compulsory is academic. You don't do it and thats that. It's then up to those on that side of the debate to justify not doing it as a matter of principle.

For those who do agree with metrication the issue of compulsion is a question of strategy to minimise inconvenience during the transition. Once the retail trade has (for the most part) adopted metric it has to be backed up by changes to legislation governing units for trade. This type of law exists in all modern societies to ensure fairness, it's nothing new in principle.

Is that any clearer?

You have a perverse definition of voluntary.

Excellent post, Stan.

The argument by the imperial supporters that the reason we shouldn't go metric is because we shouldn't be "forced" to change is just an attempt to justify continuing using the units they prefer. The hypocracy becomes crystal clear when they have no objection at all to compulsory use of imperial units.

A degree of compulsion is inevitable in a modern society and the regulations associated with metrication are no more stringent than previous regulations - they just enforce metric, not imperial.

So the debate is metric or imperial, not should the government have the right to... blah blah blah

Here here, Stan and Andy.

All too often on this forum, the argument that some kind of bogeyman is coming to deprive us of our individual freedoms and/or cultural heritage is used to defend the use of what are, essentially, antiquated and inconsistent measurements, which could hardly be described as a 'system'.

And I don't follow the garbage that X% of the British population prefer to use imperial measures. Have you asked everyone in the country - all 60 million of them?

Rather, I would argue that X% of the population are CONFUSED about measurement systems due to the uniquely-British way in which we dip our feet in one system while hanging on to the other.

As an Englishman, I find this lack of courage towards full adoption of the metric system an embarrassment. It is difficult for me to believe that the same country that once presumably had the getup-and-go to colonise a third of the earth's surface doesn't (in this day and age) have the guts to get rid of a set of measurements that no-one else apart from the Americans uses any more to any significant degree.

Let's get something straight - if we complete metrication in the UK, you won't suddenly wake up one morning smelling of garlic and wearing lederhosen and I do honestly think that some of the views expressed by the membership of the BWMA and UKIP are the tips of icebergs - under which can be found huge quantities of out-and-out xenophobia and personal paranoia.

<<<As an Englishman, I find this lack of courage towards full adoption of the metric system an embarrassment.>>>

As a patriotic Englishman I also see it as an embarassment. It really concerns me that our sense of national identity has become so weak that we have to cling on to a hopelessly outdated system of measurements just to be different from other Europeans. Ironically the likes of you and me are seen as un-patriotic by the imperial supporters.

And I have to agree xenophobia is at the root of most imperial supporters views.

<<<That's not the same as saying that Britain would go metric only as far as it wanted to and can halt the process whenever they feel like it, leaving it in the half baked mess we see today. >>>

DO you still honestly believe that the avg man on the street see's Britain as a "mess" because people like to choose whether to use millimetres or inches?


<<<As an Englishman, I find this lack of courage towards full adoption of the metric system an embarrassment>>>

(As a Welshman) - are you one of those people who think that the UK's retention of imperial measures makes us the laughing stock of the world? Like some fella is in a bar in Chile slamming his drink down so he can hysterically laugh because he heard a Brit on the TV say "miles per hour"? Heh - and *you* call imeperial supporters "paranoid" Lol! What shall I say to the countless (ex-)colleagues from europe who I've heard say that they think it is ridiculous to try to end imperial measures just so that we all sound the same?


<<<And I have to agree xenophobia is at the root of most imperial supporters views.>>>

Looks like I need your advice, mate.
Although broadly I support freedom to choose, I myself tend to prefer to use imperial. Not all the time, mind - but mostly.
So to this extent - considering I prefer imperial in most cases, I guess that broadly means I am definitely an "imperial supporter" - since I don't want that right of availability to choose to be taken away from me. One reason why I paid up and joined BWMA.
Now I've looked up "xenophobia" and this is where I need your advice.
I love europe. I find myself drawn to it for travelling and learning new cultures. I've been to (...scans memory...) Ireland, England, Wales, Channel Islands, Andorra, Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Italy, Netherlands, Swizerland, Germany, Greece and others I can't remember right now.
So now I need to become fearful of these countries.
I need to try to scrap any memories of those countries because they might influence my patriotism to the UK.
I need to stop going "over there" too.
Also I need to find some "generalisations" in order to paint an anti-view of those places. I've heard from some xenophobes about garlic and lederhosen. I need more of this bizzare notions. Are greeks "greasy", are dammers all pot smoking sexaholics? Is Italy run by the mafia?

In order to be able to paint your ignorant and blinkered view of what it means to want to retain imperial I need to learn about all these things so I can be a proper Xenophobe - so any ideas would be welcome chaps!

Hmmm, Barcelona - is that part of Spain proper, or is it an autonomous principality?
Ooh, and Monaco - the numebr of yachts and Rolls Royces there was obscene.
I need to find a way to dislike those two places too......

<<<ridiculous to try to end imperial measures just so that we all sound the same>>>

Depends how you look at it - the way I see it we keep imperial measures just so we can be different.

Let me put it a different way. What I meant was that xenophobia is at the root of anti-metric feelings. And I firmly beieve that.

Please READ what I am saying and don't confuse me with the extremists on here. You must "know" me well enough by now to realise that I wasn't saying all imperial supporters are xenophobic.

Its just that I get fed-up with people equating pro-choice(pro-imperial) with somehow being anti-europe. It feed trolls like eric (metre) who is now back from his holiday in north korea.

Its just as absurd to claim that anti-EU means anti-europe.

I actually think that those with the most strongest pro-EU feelings actually have "europe" as the least important subject on the agenda.

Bryan Parry: "You have a perverse definition of voluntary."

Stan: In the context of my argument above, Voluntary means not compelled directly by law. It's a bit like the use of the word in "Voluntary code of practice". Such codes are normally used to keep the law at bay.

So no, it isn't a perversion of mine it's form well know in legal and political circles.


SteveH: "DO you still honestly believe that the avg man on the street see's Britain as a "mess" because people like to choose whether to use millimetres or inches?"

The truthfull answer is I don't really know, it's a subjec that hasn't been very well researched.

But if you ask him whether he sees anything wrong in mixing units like that then I dare say the general response would be no, haven't really thought about it.

I can tell you though people do occassionally ponder why they are having to learn two sets of measures for the same job.

Let me give you an example. Only last weekend I heard a tv presenter on one of those 24 hr shopping channels (wife's a bit of a fan I'm afraid) say the following whilst measuring a peice of jewelry and feeling obliged to quote cm and ins (not exact words but as close as I recall)

"hmm ... I'm still trying to get used inches and centimetres. I suppose some people will never learn centimetres. I guess I'm about half way. All very confusing."

hear! hear!

<<<Its just that I get fed-up with people equating pro-choice(pro-imperial) with somehow being anti-europe.>>>>

Just as I get fed up with people equating pro-metric with being pro-EU. I think neither of us conform to the stereotypes, but that is not to say that the stereotypes are not valid.

The stereotypical Sun-reader with a dislike of anything "foreign" (or in this case perceived to be foreign) dislikes metric for that reason.

We on this board are the tiny minority who are interested in, and know the facts about this issue. Wider public feeling on this issue is much more general/vague and whatever the relevance of Europe/the EU to the metric/imperial debate, for the average Brit they are strongly linked

I would actually like to know the opinions of all the posters here about this (including the American ones).

Who here is anti- or pro-europe - and what does that mean to you?
Who here is anti- or pro-EU - and (again) what does that mean to you?
Who is hostile to european culture?
Who believes european cultures are threatened by the EU?
And - gulp - Is anyone here pro-EU and as such must be pro-metric?
..balance with..
Is anyone here anti-EU and as a result must be anti-metric?

==================

Stan said:
<<Let me give you an example. Only last weekend I heard a tv presenter on one of those 24 hr shopping channels (wife's a bit of a fan I'm afraid)>>

Now now! Don't be afraid to admit to liking "sellavision" yourself! I quite like it actually (the wife doesn't but she does like the button chef thingy that I bought!)

From looking at those channels I have noticed one big thing:

All the channels quote mainly imperial measures.

APART FROM (and oddly), QVC, who have obviously recently changed their policy as the descriptive column now usually expresses metric while it used to mainly express imperial.
This is an oddity since the state has not compelled QVC to do this so it looks like once again an elite member of management has chosen that we, the public, would prefer to see metric.

The funny thing is the presenters almost always say imperial (despite [or to spite?] this).
Its one of those maddening things again where an individual makes a decision thats not supported by even the presenters.

It would be interesting to know if viewers have switched to other sella-vision channels *because* of this or do they just wait for the UK born presenter to say it in recognisable every-day english and ignore the info column (apart from for the item number).

<<<APART FROM (and oddly), QVC, who have obviously recently changed their policy as the descriptive column now usually expresses metric while it used to mainly express imperial.
This is an oddity since the state has not compelled QVC to do this so it looks like once again an elite member of management has chosen that we, the public, would prefer to see metric.>>>

Funny how when an "elite member of management" makes a decision to use imperial it is to satisfy the customers demands, but when someone makes an equally un-compelled decision to use metric it is unacceptable to you.

Once again you show that you are only pro-choice as long as that choice is imperial.

Oh for goodness sake Andy!

All I was highlighting is that (and you know this) most customers would know stuff like wrist size etc in imperial.

So why should some individual somewhere decide unilaterally to display a size that people don't tend to use?

Yes, I would prefer to see something like Bracelet - 8in/ 20cm* and for the presenter to offer both too.

It should be noted that before the change was made to show the unknown measures on the description with no reference to known meeasures they used to have a "QVC ruler" which they often brought out to show viewers the scale of things. Oddly this had inches on one side *and inches on the other* ! What's the point in that? It starts sounding like that fat bloke of coronation street (adopts a northern accent)- "It's about 5 inches, I say 5 inches long"

(* no - i didn't do the sums, I can imagine what 8" looks like as quickly as I can imagine 20cm to look like - which lead me open to ridicule if someone does actually use a calculator to try to "prove" how inaccurate I am!)

All of a sudden this BWMA/network54 forum thingy has started "auto-sizing" for my screen.

Anyone else experiencing this?

SteveH: "APART FROM (and oddly), QVC, who have obviously recently changed their policy as the descriptive column now usually expresses metric while it used to mainly express imperial.
This is an oddity since the state has not compelled QVC to do this so it looks like once again an elite member of management has chosen that we, the public, would prefer to see metric.

The funny thing is the presenters almost always say imperial (despite [or to spite?] this).
Its one of those maddening things again where an individual makes a decision thats not supported by even the presenters."

Stan: My observations are that there is no obvious policy decision of any kind. I have noticed recently though that some presenters have sported metric only rulers for the purpose of measuring product sizes.

If there really is a metric elite handing down instructions to presenters then how come they are not being consistently obeyed? And since presenters are not consitent how can anyone draw conclusions about what dictats may or may not exist?

<<Stan: My observations are that there is no obvious policy decision of any kind. I have noticed recently though that some presenters have sported metric only rulers for the purpose of measuring product sizes.>>

Well I've not seen metric only rulers being used (unless they have one set of each)
With regard to your "no obvious policy decision" - how do you explain the exclusive use of inches and then suddenly - on one day- exclusive use of metric on QVC (ie the description column). Maybe BWMA (as part of your duties) should investigate to find out if a real poilicy shift (away from the public's requirements) was made. Maybe UKMA have been pressuring them or something (do UKMA have a "political front"?)

<<If there really is a metric elite handing down instructions to presenters then how come they are not being consistently obeyed?>>

How do you police presenters that are working "live"? They'll naturally and accidentally speak in a way that most of us speak, irregardless of diktats.

Another good example of this is Sara Cox. I used to listen to her Radio1 show (until she got pregnant and had to leave to have/bring up her baby). She used many imperial words in her live stuff. In particular she was a "yarder" rather than a "metrerer". What I mean by that is: where some (a minority) automatically say stuff like "It's about 200 metres on the left" she, like the vast majority of us, would say something like "I was 200 yds from the Radio 1 bus". She did it all the time when she was doing her live stuff. Anyway, I remember listeneing to a recording of her doing an announcement broadcast advertising a live gig to be played on R1. In it she exclaimed "I was just metres away from Robbie Williams!". Knowing her style of broadcast and recognising normal British speak that sounded rather 'false'. I suspect the first rendition was ended by the producer shouting "CUT!" - if you get my jist.

<<<Knowing her style of broadcast and recognising normal British speak that sounded rather 'false'. I suspect the first rendition was ended by the producer shouting "CUT!" - if you get my jist.>>>

I very much doubt it. 'Yards' does generally fit in better with normal British speak for most people, but "normal British speak" is evolving all the time and that evolution includes the substitution of "metres" for "yards"

Since debating this on here a couple of months ago, I have started to notice when people say yards or metres (obviously I have spent too much time on this message board), and the use of metres is clearly becoming much more common. 5 or 10 years ago it might have sounded "false" as you say, but now you hear it every day.

Unfortunately I pick these things up in the same way as you do (ie noticing people saying yards and metres just because of a trainspotter type interest in the subject!).

However I have heard metres being used for years - and I haven't heard any real increase in its usage.

I'd say it was about 50/1 yds/metres in my family, peer group and the public I meet, and around 4/1 yds/metres on the BBC and the other "main" channels.

(that includes advertising)

I would say its 5/1 at most. By the time I am 60 I reckon that will be 5/1 in favour of metres ;-)

You predict a complete turn-around in just 5 years??????

[ an even bigger ;-) ]