The "anti-metric" poem on this board reminded me of my days in chemistry. And although we hear the oft-repeated mantra in the US that science is entirely metric, that's not quite true. PSI seems to be the unit that simply refuses to die at least when it comes to chemistry and microbiology. Equipment such as HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatography--used for precise separating of chemical mixtures) have PSI units in their specifics and in their operational softaware. Sometimes, prestigious journals will still publish papers with pressures of reactions given in PSI. Similarly, the magic 3 numbers for autoclaves in microbiology are 121-15-15 (121C for 15 min at 15 PSI). The 121C is a conversion from 250C. Since the pressure units existed in isolation, ie. no calculations needed to be made with them, there really never was a strong enough a push to get rid of the PSI in some scientific applicaitons. In the US that is. Any other country that publishes in the US journals will have everything in metric.

That's interesting. In any thermodynamic calculation, PV is energy or work, and psi absolutely could not be mixed with a metric volume. That would be an abomination. So perhaps it depends on the field.

Yeah, probably it's field dependent. Equipment manufacturers are the ones to be held responsible. Check out the following nutty mixture of units, for example: http://www.rinncorp.com/techinfo_cleaning.shtml or this: http://www.laballiance.com/la_info/support/hplc4.htm

My froggy Michelen cycle tyre (proudly marked 27x1-1/4) used to say 80psi and then parentheically and pathetically 450KN or something, i.e. nearly half a million of the buggers.

The new Michelen one doesn't bother with such fatuity, and just give the common sense unit.

Ban the filth of Metric\\\\\\\\\\\\

Kilopascals, actually. A pascal is a newton per square meter. They won't you, honest.

I have noticed that in theoretical work, where it is necessary for the units to "fit" together mathematically (in thermodynamics, for example), only pure SI or cgs units will be used. In applied fields, such as engineering or manufacturing, where it is necessary to have a "feel" of the units, psi will be used because most Americans, including scientists, have no conception of what a pascal or a dyne/cm^2 is.

That's their problem.

That is one of the reasons their work is being outsourced to India and China where people do have a feel for all of the SI units. As long as American engineers continue to insist they don't have a feel for SI units, the eventuality will be that the only American engineers left will be the runs running trains.

Careful, your anti-American side is showing. You sound much too happy about it.

Lets be honest, the real reason for outsourcing is that wages are 1/3 or less the US. That makes it worth putting up with the communications issues of "not quite English", timezones, lengthy flights when in-person meetings are required, etc.

And plenty of engineers are familiar with SI units. All learn them in school, some work for metric employers, particularly in automotive, electronic, pharmaceutical. Having hired a lot of engineers in automotive, it is very uncommon to encounter an engineer unwilling to work in metric if that is what the employer requires. Even Bud could learn to love metric if he worked for a metric employer. :)

In spite of our vehicles being metric, a 3 tonne SUV consuming 15 L/100 km isn't what the rest of the world wants to drive. Being metric DOESN'T make the world beat a path to our door. You also have to have the product they actually want, and be price competitive. We and other US industries fall a little short there.

JS
In spite of our vehicles being metric, a 3 tonne SUV consuming 15 L/100 km isn't what the rest of the world wants to drive. Being metric DOESN'T make the world beat a path to our door. You also have to have the product they actually want, and be price competitive. We and other US industries fall a little short there.

metre
Agreed, but producing in USC makes it nigh impossible to sell to a metric world. Offshore manufacturers do not solve your trade deficit problem. Besides, China's cheap and immense production capability will in time put a damper on offshore earnings and viability. The future does not look rosy for the West, says the pessimist.

<<where it is necessary to have a "feel" of the units, psi will be used because most Americans, >>

I really don't have a good feel of 14.7 lb/sq in pushing on every sq in of my body. In fact, it seems quite "crushing" if I think about it too much.

Probably, "atmospheres" is easier to get a feel for. For rough work, 100 kPa per atm, or 10 atm ~ 1 Mpa is a lot rounder than ~15 psi per atm.

In the most obvious application, I have never seen a barometer marked in psi. It is either inches Hg, or millibars (which might be marked hectopascals). To inflate balls or tires, obviously we are still primarily a Customary country, and psi is wide spread.

Money is always the motivating factor. But an advantageous side effect of exporting jobs from the US to metric countries is that the design and production of products that would be in English units in the US will be in SI in the metric country.

If an engineer or a group of engineers are anti-metric and the company wants to produce metric for whatever reason, they can decide to just export the work rather then butt heads with stubborn engineers. They can always justify the outsourcing on economic grounds. But who is to say that resistance to metric didn't factor in the decision to outsource? It may be the straw that broke the camel's back.

It may sound anti-American but that seems to be the attack word of the times when you go up against the policies of the US, whether it be supporting metric at any cost against those who oppose it or even opposing the war in Iraq. There is something very "unconstitutional" about calling someone anti-American or unpatriotic because they don't agree with certain factions who thing their way is the only way. I have a right to make my beliefs known but I don't challenge someone's national loyalty if they don't support my views. Those that do have a very weak foundation for their beliefs.

You have a right to your opinion. HOWEVER, a view that it is more important for the US to have metric products than to have an economy seems both un-American and profoundly stupid, as no one will have the money to buy the metric products. Ultimately, what will you do for a job when the economy collapses? WE can't all flip burgers and buy Chinese junk.

Can you offer some evidence of a company that wants to go metric but the engineers are preventing it? There is enough unemployment among engineers affected by outsourcing that they will be glad to work in whatever units the employer wants. Further, virtually all professional engineering societies have metric policies and encourgae metric. The real reluctance is the employers who have too much invested in tooling and machinery that either can't be used for metric product or they believe it can't.

I grant you there are some engineers who can't make the change to metric. It's not many -- you just don't hire them. If you made the mistake of hiring them, you fire them. Almost all engineering employment is "at will." Problem solved - if the problem is engineering (which it isn't.)

A problem you misunderstand is unlikely to get solved.

"You have a right to your opinion. HOWEVER, a view that it is more important for the US to have metric products than to have an economy seems both un-American and profoundly stupid, as no one will have the money to buy the metric products. Ultimately, what will you do for a job when the economy collapses? WE can't all flip burgers and buy Chinese junk."


Nonsense! It is more important for the US to become an exporting nation to earn the money needed to buy the imports. That is the basic principle of trade. To be an exporting nation the US has to be metric, plain and simple. Without it the country will collapse as debts rise and rise. Debt comes from one side taking (importing) and not giving (exporting) something of equal value back. Eventually excessive unsustainable debt brings down the country.

What is un-American and profoundly stupid is not opening your mouth and screaming out to as many as can hear that we need metric to create exports. Not to say anything and to allow the system to crash because we don't want to stir the waters is anti-American and extremely stupid. If you care, you speask out, if you don't care you keep silent. If the people don't listen and tell you off, then when the big crash comes, then it will be their fault and the suffering they will have to endure would be justified. No amount of flag-waving is going to end the suffering.

I would agree the US needs to be metric, needs to manufacture, and needs to export. Where I disagree is your apparent gloating as workers lose their jobs because they refuse to metricate.

I don't believe they refuse to metricate, I believe management does. To some degree, organized labor has contributed to the competitiveness of American industry. Stupid work rules that lower productivity are particularly upsetting, although, lets be honest, high wages and fringe benefits are a big problem. Union workers would have to achieve unimaginable productivity at those total wages to be competitive, and automation can be installed in the third world too.

I don't know what you do, but I worked for two companies in two industries that were among the earliest in the country to be metric. I have worked with people from the shop floor to VPs. If the company decides to go metric, the people (at all levels) go along, either willingly or quietly. If the company hasn't gone metric, anybody at a working level has an impossible road to get the company to go metric; it takes someone in senior management as a driver. For a company, it either takes international operations so it sees the need internally, or demand from customers. (although it may be that the imperial company has already written off the metric customers and doesn't know it, just like the bar owner who says "I can't go 'non smoking' all my customers smoke.")

So the employees you are gloating about are the innocent victims. I am not arguing with your zeal. I AM arguing it is misdirected, and needs to redirected to be effective.

"So the employees you are gloating about are the innocent victims. I am not arguing with your zeal. I AM arguing it is misdirected, and needs to redirected to be effective."

My gloating is directed not at the innocent victims but at those who are victims but are not innocent.

This all started because someone said:

"In applied fields, such as engineering or manufacturing, where it is necessary to have a "feel" of the units, psi will be used because most Americans, including scientists, have no conception of what a pascal or a dyne/cm^2 is."

If an American Engineer, whether it is one or a million, don't have a feel for a pascal or don't want to have a feel for a pascal, should I or anyone feel sorry for them if their attitude causes their job to be exported? I'm not a fan of exporting jobs, but if a vocal opponent to metric is partly responsible for seeing his job exported because of resistance to metric, I'm not going to offer my sympathy.

Some industries were able to metricate successfully, others find it much easier to export the job then to endure the whining and resistance. Maybe if the silent majority spoke up, they wouldn't be the innocent victims either. A burger flipper or a greeter at Wal-Mart doesn't need metric but someone wanting to work in an export industry that pays a living salary does.

<<This all started because someone said: >>

And as another engineer, I disagree with Bud.

However, he has chosen a field of engineering which is very resistant to metrication. I know he has to learn both. I hope he retains the metric, as I suspect sometime before he retires, his industry will be metric.

Bud appears to work in the petroleum industry.

The United Kingdom has an organisation called "The Engineering Council" (EC). It was set up by Parliament some years ago and membership of the EC consists of industry-specific engineering institutes such as the Electrical Engineers, Chemical Engineers, British Computer Society (software engineers) and so on. The most notable absentee is the Institute of Petroleum Engineers.

Any engineer who is a member of his or her engineering body can apply through their body for the title "Chartered Engineer".

Maybe this attitude cuold explain Bud's views.

Just to clear things up, I am not a practicing engineer. I am still in college. =)

Also, I don't believe for one second that units of measurement have anything to do with the trade deficit. When the cost of labour in the US is so many times higher than in other countries, nothing else is going to make a significant difference. If labour costs were about equal, then other things might matter. If fixing a multi-billion dollar trade deficit were as simple as manufacturing products to metric specifications, companies would quickly catch on.

Bud wrote

<<
Just to clear things up, I am not a practicing engineer. I am still in college.
>>

Bud - do yourself a favour - make sure that you fully understand the metric system otherwise when you are 40 you will be unemployable as an engineer.

Re: PSI--the most persistent unit? August 16 2005, 5:56 AM

Bud

Also, I don't believe for one second that units of measurement have anything to do with the trade deficit. When the cost of labour in the US is so many times higher than in other countries, nothing else is going to make a significant difference.

metre
You have a trade deficit since the 1960s, long before companies went offshore to take advantage of cheap labour. How do you explain that?

Oh that's easy! Someone in America bought a pound of bacon.

The rest - as they say - is history.

a metric America would increase its exports by $40 billion annually

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.metric-system/browse_frm/thread/06e1366f9084f44a/e72e672827f675f3#e72e672827f675f3

Newsgroups: misc.metric-system

From: "Paul Trusten, R.Ph." <trus...@grandecom.net> - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:39:45 -0500
Local: Mon, Aug 15 2005 11:39 pm
Subject: a metric America would increase its exports by $40 billion annually
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This is an opinion offered this month by an author in a new publication, the
Atlantic Times (www.atlantic-times.com), a monthly English-language
newspaper launched only last year, in Germany, but published only in North
America.


--
Paul Trusten, R.Ph.
U.S. Metric Association, Inc.
www.metric.org
Editor, "Metric Today"
3609 Caldera Blvd., Apt. 122
Midland TX 79707-2872 USA
trus...@grandecom.net


"There are two cardinal sins, from which all
the others spring: impatience and laziness."
---Franz Kafka

That would help a bit, but a quick Google shows our trade deficit is over $600 billion per yeat; it was $58.8 billion for the month of June.

So not being metric may be a problem, but it can't be the single biggest problem, because it is only about 7% of total.

Martin, I am quite sure that I understand the metric system just as well as the average American engineer, or probably better since I post here so much. But, like I pointed out earlier, there are several industries in the US that are predominantly imperial: aerospace, petroleum, and building construction, to name a few. So may I ask what makes you so sure that all of these will be metric within 20 years?

"Martin, I am quite sure that I understand the metric system just as well as the average American engineer, or probably better since I post here so much. But, like I pointed out earlier, there are several industries in the US that are predominantly imperial: aerospace, petroleum, and building construction, to name a few. So may I ask what makes you so sure that all of these will be metric within 20 years?"

As JohnS of Michigan already pointed out, there are some countries already using metric for flight ceilings. With the EU pro-metric attitude, there is a good possibility they will harmonize their air space with that of their biggest neighbor.

Petroleum is being used faster then it can be extracted from the earth. Petroleum may lose its significance in the next 20 years and be replaced by other products. Thus when this industry goes, so does the imperial attachment.

Building construction is metric everywhere but the US. If the US starts to import pre-fab building products from metric countries, this will boost the metric usage in this industry.

Imperial usage is being squeezed out of most industries. Even you have to accept that imperial is on the way out.

He doesn't actually read the facts.

"There are two cardinal sins, from which all
the others spring: impatience and laziness."
---Franz Kafka

"The whole art of Kafka consists in forcing the reader to reread."
–Albert Camus

Back in the 1970s, when the US government was still trying to actively promote metrication, we were told that everything would be metric within a short amount of time. Some things have changed, but the majority have not. So with all that government intervention, if most things are still imperial after 30 years, what makes you so sure they will change now?

But the world has changed to 98 % usage since that time. The US is changing by exporting jobs. Send a business to China and it changes. The difference is the American worker pays the price. So where is the win for the imperial side?

I'm not talking about the merits here, I'm pointing out that you can't always trust the government when they say that so-and-so will happen in 20 years.

The new figure is now "98%" folks.

When will it be 110% I wonder?

LOL!