The news just gets better and better. This, just reported on Sky News just now, suggests that the United Kingdom will never join the failing euro project. The last sentence, from a nameless and faceless 'official spokesman', can safely be disregarded

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plans to re-design British coins have been announced today, sparking rumours that the Government is not going to join the euro.

The Royal Mint announced plans to re-design six of the eight coins for the first time since decimalisation in 1971.

Chancellor Gordon Brown has approved the move and will have to give his approval to the new coins.

Anti-euro campaigners said the plans showed Britain would not be signing up to the single European currency.

They said there would be no point going to the expense of changing the coins if they were then to be ditched for the euro.

Neil O'Brien, of the Vote No campaign, said: "I don't think anybody believes there is any prospect of us joining the euro in the foreseeable future. Today's announcement shows institutions are planning on that basis".

The Treasury insisted the changes had nothing to do with the euro.

A spokesman said: "There has been no change in our position on the single currency".

Talk about clutching at straws!

New coins are being made all the time. Changing the design of new coins introduced is hardly ruling out joining the euro! Think about it. They're not talking about replacing the coins already in circulation.

(BTW, I don't think we're about to join the euro)

re (Andy): "Talk about clutching at straws"

REPLY: Was the respected Neil O'Brien of the 'Vote No' campaign also 'clutching at straws' when he said this? -

"Neil O'Brien, of the Vote No campaign, said: 'I don't think anybody believes there is any prospect of us joining the euro in the foreseeable future. Today's announcement shows institutions are planning on that basis'".

<<<REPLY: Was the respected Neil O'Brien of the 'Vote No' campaign also 'clutching at straws' when he said this? >>>

Yes I think he was..

Everyone knows that we won't be joining the euro for the next few years at least - but after that who knows?

I can't see the government saying in a few years "well the economic conditions are suitable and we really should join, but we've just designed some new coins so we'd better not"

I would not read too mcuh into new designs for our coins. AS long as they are stayig the same size (and nothing in the report suggests anything to the contrary), the Government is leaving room to join the Euro should they see fit and remain outside the Euro should they see fit.

I would also suggest that readers visit http://www.euro.gov.uk/home.asp.

Andy - I believe a wholesale change in coin design is a little different to "putting a different picture on a 50p coin"

Know what I mean?

Although I'm not sure what the euro has to do with feet, inches etc.

A new Forum area is needed me thinks

<<<Andy - I believe a wholesale change in coin design is a little different to "putting a different picture on a 50p coin" >>>

Thats all this is - different pictures

<<<Although I'm not sure what the euro has to do with feet, inches etc.>>>

There are only two people here who continuously post about the euro.

To them the issues are closely linked.

To any sensible person they are not.

<<Thats all this is - different pictures>>

Is it - I haven't had time to check. With all the stuff about "since decimalissation) it sounded more like a radical change on denominations, size, shape etc.
Forgive me if I'm wrong.

<<To any sensible person they are not.>>

Don't forget to recycle your toilet paper during this "recession" ;-)

The coins will be made in metric with metric dimensions and masses. No imperial used in the thought or manufacturing practice.

Did someone hear something?

So they'll be made by robots or something will they?

Or minted in controlled environments completely free of such contamination.

Don't tell the Royal Mint who sell in Sunday Papers their One Ounce Silver Coins.

And a special prize ot anyone who avails us of the irrelevant information that that's a DIFFERENT ounce to the one some naughty people buy their fruit and meat in. Let's hope the metal exchanges don't slip up and give someone too much.



Steven Cruple

"Don't tell the Royal Mint who sell in Sunday Papers their One Ounce Silver Coins"

Which variation of the ounces out of many are they using?

<<
Which variation of the ounces out of many are they using?
>>

If they are using anything other than the Troy ounce (approx 31g), they will be in trouble for using short-measure. The Troy ounce is legal only for the sale of precious metals.

My coins are precious metal to me! ;-)

"If they are using anything other than the Troy ounce (approx 31g), they will be in trouble for using short-measure. The Troy ounce is legal only for the sale of precious metals."


But how many of the people on the street would know there is a difference in the various ounce units? The people understand metric, but when it comes to imperial they assume all units of the same name are the same unit.

Someone tell me why anyone would want to compare the weight of vegetables with the weight of precious metals?

re (Bud): "Someone tell me why anyone would want to compare the weight of vegetables with the weight of precious metals?"

REPLY: A research project on specific gravity?

The point is that people who are force fed imperial only develop a sense of one type of unit and assume all others of the same name is the one they are accustom to. With miles, people will tend to assume all miles are the ones on the odometer and interpret nautical miles as the mile unit they have adjusted to. The difference in the two are ignored. The same is true with ounces, pints, pounds, gallons, etc. Americans would never envision a gallon as anything more then 3.8 L. Only an extreme minority is aware of the differences in the unit variations.

A person insisting on speaking in pre-metric units should add the metric equivalent so the other person knows what version of the pre-metric unit is intended.

re (Daniel Jackson): "...force fed imperial.."

REPLY: My word, we are getting some gold nuggets, now, from the metric zealots. Using the language of food being forced down feeding tubes to illustrate the natural use of Imperial units by millions of Brits. Let's just say, 'interesting'

<<
The point is that people who are force fed imperial only develop a sense of one type of unit and assume all others of the same name is the one they are accustom to. With miles, people will tend to assume all miles are the ones on the odometer and interpret nautical miles as the mile unit they have adjusted to. The difference in the two are ignored. The same is true with ounces, pints, pounds, gallons, etc.
>>

Daniel, that's a good point, but you have to realise that most people don't have enough of a sense of measurement to distinguish by "feel". Most Americans know how much a mile is, but I don't think that too many people could tell the difference between 5 miles and 5 nautical miles while riding in a car, for example.
Besides, there are only a few units for which multiple values are in use: ounces, miles and the volume units are the only ones I can think of. You mention pounds in your list above, so can you tell me which other pounds there are in use?

Bud,

Pounds have been the same since 1959 (and the prior difference was extremely small). Because the UK uses stones, their hundredweight differs from the US (112/100 pounds) as well as the ton (2240/2000 lbs)

Wet and dry measure of the same is also confusing in the US (quarts, pints), While Imperial volume measure is different from US, it is the same, wet or dry.

Daniel probably meant troy and av. pounds. (The troy pound is 12 of its different size ounces, but common between US and UK.)

<<Someone tell me why anyone would want to compare the weight of vegetables with the weight of precious metals?>>

I'm not sure you would. On the other hand, why should I need to buy different scales to weigh vegetables vs precious metals. And why just those two. Why don't we have different pounds for fruits and for vegetables, or an ounce for each type of fruit or vegetable. While is steel weighed on one scale, gold on another? How precious is precious? At what value (per unit weight) do I switch. Platinum or palladium are obviously precious, and used in jewelry. On other catalysts, like rhodium, is it precious or common? I frankly don't know. When is an ounce an ounce, and when is it that other damn ounce. (it's more serious at the pound level, dealing with larger quantities. Are there troy tons so car companies can buy catalysts for emission controls?) With grams, kilograms or tonnes, no problem.

I wouldn't trade in metals, but I see ads all the time trying to dupe people into "making big money trading in precious metals and metals futures." How many of the people who get into it (of course, they shouldn't) are, among other problems, duped by their lack of knowledge that different ounces and pounds are used?

Interesting August 20 2005, 5:02 PM

TB
re (Daniel Jackson): "...force fed imperial.."

REPLY: My word, we are getting some gold nuggets, now, from the metric zealots. Using the language of food being forced down feeding tubes to illustrate the natural use of Imperial units by millions of Brits. Let's just say, 'interesting'


metre
Nuggets indeed. Daniel is not off the mark when he says imperial was rammed down peoples throat. In pre decimal days that hodgepodge of disjointed units could only be taught by constant repetition. Hapless children were forced to waste countless hours on the 12-time table to achieve a basic understanding of an outdated monetary system and that miserable experience repeated itself learning equally cumbersome and disjointed measurement units. If youcall that process natural, you have no idea what that word means. Only years of constant drill instilled some basic understanding of a few daily used measurements in most children. Rest assured that most of them hated every minute of that boring and totally unnecessary waste of precious time. Come to think of it, maybe you were one of them.
That sheer misery must still loom large in older people's mind and explains why they are so frightened of adopting anything to do with that dreadful time. Add to this habit and you have the only valid answer why most people are so reluctant to change. Can anyone blame them?

"You mention pounds in your list above, so can you tell me which other pounds there are in use?"

There is a troy pound equal to about 373 g. It may be dead now, but if it is mentioned people would assume one is referring to the 454 g pound. I wonder if it did die out because people though they were being cheated when they bought a pound of gold and only got 373 g instead of 454 g.

There is the pound-force versus the pound-mass. This is the most confusing as one is never sure what is meant when pound is in use.

There still is the 500 g pound, that even though not official is there. When an American speaks pounds to a foreigner, most will envision an equivalent of 500 g and instead of the 454 g intended.

JS
I wouldn't trade in metals, but I see ads all the time trying to dupe people into "making big money trading in precious metals and metals futures." How many of the people who get into it (of course, they shouldn't) are, among other problems, duped by their lack of knowledge that different ounces and pounds are used?

metre
The question is and always has been that imperial uses 2 different pounds. The standard reaction of one USC defender is, "so can you tell me which other pounds there are in use"?
Obviously some people are slow learners.

Meter,

We had the same situation in the US. I remember every grade in school we were drilled in fractions. Fractions consumed a lot of time. Yet, despite all of that effort, I'd guess that less then 5 % can add two fractions together. The only fractions people can deal with well, are one half and one quarter. Beyond that you enter a very grey area.

Yet we persist in the force feeding just to see it vomited out once the feeding is stopped.

<<The standard reaction of one USC defender is, "so can you tell me which other pounds there are in use"?
>>

Or don't understand the system as well as a defender ought to.

DJ,

Fractions still have their place in mathematics. I'd love to be rid of USC, but fractions are still necessary to understand approximation by ratio of rational polynomials, partial fraction expansion, etc. Perhaps they could be deferred to a different grade level, taught a different way, but they shouldn't be abandoned.

I'm not saying they should be abandoned. They are over taught to no positive result. They could be taught as part of an algebra or pre-algebra course in either junior high or early high school. The time saved from not over teaching fractions could be used to teach metric on a practical level as opposed to teaching conversion factors. Teach how to work with metric, not how to convert from one system to another.

I largely agree.

They will encounter "old" data in Customary, and I would teach how to convert from Customary to metric, so that the data doesn't have to be discarded and the object remeasured.

I would NOT explicitly teach how to convert from metric to Customary; however, if they learned ANY of the mathematics being taught, they could probably figure it out.

I don't think US schools "overteach" fractions. When I was in elementary school (about 10-12 years ago) we were taught the basics, but never in the context of units of measurement.


<<
While is steel weighed on one scale, gold on another? How precious is precious? At what value (per unit weight) do I switch. Platinum or palladium are obviously precious, and used in jewelry. On other catalysts, like rhodium, is it precious or common?
>>

John, if you think that there is such confusion, then why haven't people who deal with precious metals tried to convert? Remember how scientists converted to metric. They were not forced to by the government, they did it voluntarily because they believed it to be in their best interest. Jewellers and others who deal with precious metals have not thought it necessary to go metric, so who are we to tell them that their system is too confusing?


<<
There is the pound-force versus the pound-mass. This is the most confusing as one is never sure what is meant when pound is in use.
>>
Daniel, are you a scientist? The whole reason it is often preferable to use pounds rather than kilos/newtons is because pounds are equivalent for mass and force under standard conditions, so you don't need to know which one is meant because they are the same.

Stan - carrying on from another thread - there are EVEN THOSE who believe that the 12-times table is not taught at school anymore (Clue: Welsh is "obsolete").

<<On other catalysts, like rhodium, is it precious or common?
>>

John, if you think that there is such confusion, then why haven't people who deal with precious metals tried to convert? Remember how scientists converted to metric. They were not forced to by the government, they did it voluntarily because they believed it to be in their best interest. Jewellers and others who deal with precious metals have not thought it necessary to go metric, so who are we to tell them that their system is too confusing?
>>

Jewelers learn troy and like confusing the customer? I don't know.

These metals are not just used in jewelry. Gold is used as a plating in electronics and for dental work. Platinum and palladium are widely used as catalysts and some specialty electrical contacts.

In automotive, it didn't confuse us, as we wrote contracts in kilograms, anyone who didn't understand them couldn't sell to us. But if you get trapped in Imperial contracts, it is confusing. You still didn't answer about rhodium. I really don't know the answer. If you deal in Imperial, is it precious or common? It's the only one I can think of with real utility that is "on the cusp."

On the hewelry front, I notice a lot of gold chains are now sold by the gram, not troy ounce, so maybe things are changing.

Re: Britain's 8 new coins mean that the U.K. will never join the euro August 22 2005, 10:20 AM


carrying on from another thread - there are EVEN THOSE who believe that the 12-times table is not taught at school anymore (Clue: Welsh is "obsolete").

You are a habitual liar.

Oh for God's sake.

It's "an" habitual liar - "you are **an** habitual liar"

Jeesh. Some people.