Since Tony presents us continuously with data depicting metric countries as economical basket cases, let me quote some relevant figures for Germany, the haven of unemployed.

Still 3rd largest economy int he world, best performing exporter and largest economy in Europe. Not a bad performance for a basket case.

Is the the complete picture (ie. the whole story) or is there more to it that just that?
I'm not sure what direction you are going in here?

Re: Gloating? October 17 2005, 2:54 PM

KB
Is the the complete picture (ie. the whole story) or is there more to it that just that?
I'm not sure what direction you are going in here?

metre
Should not be difficult to understand.

I hope that Angela Merkel can turn that country around.
Considering it's the biggest country in Europe by a long shot it needs to perform well for the whole area to benefit in one way or another.

"Still 3rd largest economy int he world, best performing exporter and largest economy in Europe. Not a bad performance for a basket case."

I think we can all thank the euro for this remarkable performance. I notice though in the articles Tony posts, these three factors are always omitted. I wonder why. Maybe Tony can provide an answer.

What Tony also doesn't want you to know is that the unemployed in Germany live better then the employed in the UK. It is very easy to create low unemployment:

1.) Don't count everyone out of work as unemployed.

2.) Create low paying jobs and threaten the unemployed to take them or get cut off from compensation.


Angela Merkel can't "reform" Germany if the people don't want her style of reform. If reform means creating third world "working poor" jobs like those that exist in the US and UK then there will be no reform. The Americans and British may be happy to give up their middle class living standard, but the Germans never will willingly.

Daniel, I fear this is off-topic for a measurement debate.

However I must point out a glaring fact that even micky mouse might know - Germany's economy has got worse because of the euro whereas the UK economy has done better because of the euro. Everyone knows that, including pro-euro politicians. It's just fact. The UK is a smaller country - despite this it is gaining on Germany as being the 3rd economic power. If Germany did not adopt the Euro then Germany would be comparitively and consistantly larger in economic power than the UK to suit it's size of working population and therefore combined wealth. It's basic maths.

Then you mention something very strange.

Please be honest - do you honestly think that an employed individual in the UK has a harder/poorer life than an unemployed individual in Germany?

I happen to know of some unemployed Germans and they will say that your particular take on this is rather sick.

Or have I read you wrong?

Incidentally - have you been to Germany recently? Or at all?


I really hope that Angela Merkel succeeds - Germany needs her in the same way as the UK needed Thatcher in 1979. Even opponents to Thatcher will grudgingly accept that at least some of her measures were necesary. Hopefully people will say the same about Merkel when Germany is once more a very healthy "power house" country within the next decade and no longer the "sick man of europe" (as German politicians see it).

<<
Even opponents to Thatcher will grudgingly accept that at least some of her measures were necesary.
>>

I agree - most of Mrs Thatchers innovations were for the good - she did however have a blind spot where teh EU was concerend and at times seemed more interested in scoring cheap points that doing what was best for Britain - one of the prime examples being the abandonment of metrication

KB
I really hope that Angela Merkel succeeds - Germany needs her in the same way as the UK needed Thatcher in 1979. Even opponents to Thatcher will grudgingly accept that at least some of her measures were necesary. Hopefully people will say the same about Merkel when Germany is once more a very healthy "power house" country within the next decade and no longer the "sick man of europe" (as German politicians see it).

metre
England used to be the sick man of Europe.
Angela won't succeed, she hasn't got the numbers. Why, because nearly half of Germany prefers decent living to over working. Can't see anything wrong in that. What is life for, to work for things you don't need to keep an irrational economy going? Or do you really believe everything advertisers and politicians tell you? Thatcher, well everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.

There are a lot of people who would never say that those trapped in the economic decline are happy because they are having a decent living.
Did no-one tell you that they unified?

But you are correct about England, or more accurately the UK (you made a bit of an American slip there!) - we used to be the sick man of europe. The state was bloated and the unions held control. The state was then reduced and we got on our bikes and looked for work. Today's economy can be attributed to this revolution in thinking. Germany needs that and will get it - and will be powerful (economically!) again.

My only concern is that recent reports say that the UK state has become bloated again - and that the chancellor will have to find more money to pay for it.

Woah! This is getting totally off-topic!!

Daniel, I fear this is off-topic for a measurement debate.

However I must point out a glaring fact that even micky mouse might know - Germany's economy has got worse because of the euro whereas the UK economy has done better because of the euro. Everyone knows that, including pro-euro politicians. It's just fact. The UK is a smaller country - despite this it is gaining on Germany as being the 3rd economic power. If Germany did not adopt the Euro then Germany would be comparitively and consistantly larger in economic power than the UK to suit it's size of working population and therefore combined wealth. It's basic maths.

Nonsense! It is the euro that has kept Germany from total collapse. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why. Germany's biggest mistake was taking on the cost of reunification and figuring that the reconstruction of the former DDR would spur growth due to investment and deficit spending. If they still had their own currency they would have suffered a major economic collapse. They would have had to raise interest rates sky high to keep the currency strong enough to draw in foreign investment. The high interest rates would have lead to high costs and a huge decline in business activity and eventually hyperinflation, which would have created a repeat of the economic situation of 1923.

No currency today is based on anything of value, like gold. They are all based on faith that foreign investors have in the local economy. Without gold to back the mark, Germany would have no other means to keep the currency and economy from collapsing. The switch to the euro allowed Germany to continue to finance the reconstruction of the former DDR through a Europe wide system of banks and investment strategies. The euro saved Germany from having to endure the curse of high interest rates. and thus the German economy is mildly ill instead of in a coma.

Germany would be healthy today if they did not have to compete with their generous benefit and salary packages against third world countries not being burdened by providing their workers with the same living standard wages as in Germany. If China was still a backward, isolated communist nation as it was in the '60s, Germany would still be experiencing "der wirtschaftwunder".

The British, not being a part of the euro had to raise interest rates to 5 % in order to attract investment funds to secure the credit system needed to maintain a desired spending level by the population although mostly employed, but not earning enough to do it on their own. Unfortunately that method of producing growth through deficit spending only produces positive results for a short time. The high interest rates actually strangled the middle class, produced record numbers of bankruptcies and forced the economy into a recession. The interest rates were recently lowered to 4.5 %, which is not enough to reverse the effects on the average citizens debt burden. Adopting the euro would have allowed the UK to tap into EU-wide investment resources without having to suffer the long term debilitating effects of high interest rates.



"Then you mention something very strange.

Please be honest - do you honestly think that an employed individual in the UK has a harder/poorer life than an unemployed individual in Germany?"


That depends. A German receiving a generous long-term unemployment benefit is much better of then the "working poor" who earn to little to make ends meet and are trapped into a never ending debt cycle to which they can never escape. Keep in mind though, the majority of the unemployed in Germany are in the former DDR. If the German government kept the two regions separate as far as unemployment statistics are concerned, western Germany would be no different then the UK and eastern Germany would resemble the other former ex-Soviet states.


"I happen to know of some unemployed Germans and they will say that your particular take on this is rather sick.

Or have I read you wrong?

Incidentally - have you been to Germany recently? Or at all?"

I was last there in the mid '90s.


"I really hope that Angela Merkel succeeds - Germany needs her in the same way as the UK needed Thatcher in 1979. Even opponents to Thatcher will grudgingly accept that at least some of her measures were necessary. Hopefully people will say the same about Merkel when Germany is once more a very healthy "power house" country within the next decade and no longer the "sick man of Europe" (as German politicians see it)."

If the people really wanted the type of reforms Thatcher brought to the UK and Regan brought to the US, they would have adopted them long ago. The McDonaldisation of the job market is what Germans have been resisting for 25 years. You may think it is wonderful to be a nation of working poor, but they don't. Merkel may make some token changes so everyone will think she is serious about reform. But will never be able to reform Germany to the point where the people work long hours for reduced benefits, and have to rely on credit they will never be able to pay back, which in the mid term may produce healthy growing businesses, but a poor and debt burdened population. In the long term, the businesses will start to feel the effects of the stressed population and begin to fade too. something similar to what you are seeing in the UK now.

I think you are a part of the working poor and the old adage that misery loves company applies here. You want them to be as poor as you are and are somewhat upset that it isn't happening.

I agree that with the second paragraph of the post! ;-)

I can't really comment on the rest as it is truly and totally contrary to reality.

Perhaps you should investigate the home-ownership ratio in the UK compared to the rest or Europe and, indeed, to the USA to understand why interest rates mean something totally different in the UK to the eurozone (and the USA). Also you might be able to learn and recognise why 5% is historically a very low figure in the UK (where it would be deemed as very high in the Eurozone).

Also you should look up "recession" - its defined something like "3 or more quarters of negative growth". The UK's growth has slowed but it's not been negative for years.

Also - didn't you notice the number of fast food outlets in Germany when you visited in the 90's? Or was it your implication that those jobs are taken by foreigners so that German's can live a prosperous unemployed existance? Were you aware of the new jobs in Germany paying €1 per hour to get a "feel for working life" in prepararion for long-term unemployed people? Were you aware that many Germans are humiliated by this and would continue to see your explanations as sick?

Actually - this is probably pointless because you'll probably just post some more awkwardly embarrasing nonsense and total drivel accompainied with details about this image you have of British people trudging about in the wilderness searching for food for their impoverished families.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have a very nasty view on - quite literally - everything and everyone.

You mentioned (by inference) on another post that you were in you 50's (possibly 60's). Isn't it about time you dropped the nastiness, stopped looking for all the bad things in life to accuse people of and actually start enjoying life? It's not too late but you have to be radical. Which includes not getting stressed everyday with seeing almost everything in your stores and around you being shown or said in customary. There is more to life than the dark miserable picture that you appear to have put yourself in for what feels like decades.

Again - sorry if that sounds harsh, but cheer up for heaven's sake!

>>You mentioned (by inference) on another post that you were in you 50's (possibly 60's). Isn't it about time you dropped the nastiness, stopped looking for all the bad things in life to accuse people of and actually start enjoying life? It's not too late but you have to be radical. Which includes not getting stressed everyday with seeing almost everything in your stores and around you being shown or said in customary. There is more to life than the dark miserable picture that you appear to have put yourself in for what feels like decades.<<

Don't waste your time. Methinks it is too late for him.
Best leave him alone. Grumping is one of the few pleasures left for old blokes.

Btw: He is closer to 70 than to 60.

Anon said "Btw: He is closer to 70 than to 60"

Woah! You're joking right?
Then I feel truly truly sorry for the chap.
What an existence.

There's a lesson in their for us all.

Anon
Don't waste your time. Methinks it is too late for him.
Best leave him alone. Grumping is one of the few pleasures left for old blokes.

Btw: He is closer to 70 than to 60.

metre
Sounds very much like someone is one to know one.

Dan's passion makes him a lot younger than that.

If he was skateboarding in the 60's then I suggest not.
It's simple maths.

We're you a skateboarder, a rollerskater or a hoop-spinner?

Actually a better way of distinguishing ages, I find, is to ask what "Doctor Who" they prefer.

Actually - Dr Who started in the 60's (a bit late for some) so maybe the question should be "What Doctor Who/plague/bible character do you prefer?"

Just a thought (on re-reading)... passion for what?

"We're you a skateboarder, a rollerskater or a hoop-spinner?"

Neither. I was a monkey spanker.

lol!

Smashing sense of humour!

Gloating?

"I agree that with the second paragraph of the post! ;-)

I can't really comment on the rest as it is truly and totally contrary to reality.'

Truth being it doesn't agree with the "reality" you wish to portray.


"Perhaps you should investigate the home-ownership ratio in the UK compared to the rest or Europe and, indeed, to the USA to understand why interest rates mean something totally different in the UK to the eurozone (and the USA). Also you might be able to learn and recognize why 5% is historically a very low figure in the UK (where it would be deemed as very high in the Eurozone)."

Home ownership on the continent is low. Most people rent. Those who have homes are usually those that inherit them. Countries like Germany have a high population density making land ownership expensive. Building codes in some regions are very strict making the cost to build them more expensive. The hardest part is getting the loan to buy a home. Credit is more restrictive in the eurozone and unsecured credit is almost unheard of.

If 5 % is an historically low figure that is not good. High interest rates are the price you have to pay for risky loans. In the US, our loan structure is subsidized by the petrodollar. Our banks and lending institutions sell their loans to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, in then sell the loans to petrodollar investors in the form of bonds outside the US. Without this subsidy we too would have high interest rates. Since the pound is not an oil currency you can't secure your with offering potential international investors something more. That something more is a higher return in the form of higher interest on investments.

I can see why you want the euro to fail. You hope that if it does, the pound will move into the euro's place. If instead of the having a petroeuro sharing the subsidy with the petrodollar, it would be the petropound. When the petroeuro becomes a reality next March, there will some big changes in both the eurozone and American economies.

"Also you should look up "recession" - its defined something like "3 or more quarters of negative growth". The UK's growth has slowed but it's not been negative for years."

From Wikipedia:

A recession is usually defined in macroeconomics as a fall of a country's real Gross Domestic Product in two or more successive quarters of a year. A recession may also involve falling prices, which can lead to a depression; alternatively it may involve sharply rising prices (inflation), in which case this process is known as stagflation. Most recessions lead to falling inflation rates or what is called disinflation.

The definition says nothing about negative growth, just a fall in growth. Your high interest rates and personal debts are stifeling growth. Thus you are in a recession. Maybe not severe, but still a slow economy.


"Also - didn't you notice the number of fast food outlets in Germany when you visited in the 90's? Or was it your implication that those jobs are taken by foreigners so that German's can live a prosperous unemployed existence? Were you aware of the new jobs in Germany paying €1 per hour to get a "feel for working life" in preparation for long-term unemployed people? Were you aware that many Germans are humiliated by this and would continue to see your explanations as sick?

This is exactly what the Germans want to avoid. If it is happening then the reform that you want to see there so badly will result in more of this. If anyone is sick it is you. Because you want this to happen. You said so yourself.


"Actually - this is probably pointless because you'll probably just post some more awkwardly embarrassing nonsense and total drivel accompanied with details about this image you have of British people trudging about in the wilderness searching for food for their impoverished families.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have a very nasty view on - quite literally - everything and everyone.

You mentioned (by inference) on another post that you were in you 50's (possibly 60's). Isn't it about time you dropped the nastiness, stopped looking for all the bad things in life to accuse people of and actually start enjoying life? It's not too late but you have to be radical. Which includes not getting stressed everyday with seeing almost everything in your stores and around you being shown or said in customary. There is more to life than the dark miserable picture that you appear to have put yourself in for what feels like decades.

Again - sorry if that sounds harsh, but cheer up for heaven's sake!'

In other words the last four paragraphs signify I am right and you are wrong. But you can't provide proof to back your views up, so you have taken to distract attention from your lack of knowledge on the subject by attacking me.

"Truth being it doesn't agree with the "reality" you wish to portray"

Does "your truth" come from practical knowledge?

"If 5 % is an historically low figure that is not good."

No -actually- on the UK's economic cycle that's not a bad figure. 5% inflation would be bad though - maybe that's what you mean?


"Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac"

Who?

"I can see why you want the euro to fail."

Can you reproduce, for the benefit of all posters, where I said I wanted the euro to fail? Did you skip over my statements outlining the fact that I wanted Germany (a big influencer on the euro) to recover and be strong? Why did you make this up?

"You hope that if it does, the pound will move into the euro's place."

Does this have something to do with someone called "Jack Daniels"? Where have I hinted that? (In case you didn't know: The pound is a UK currency not one that is in the eurozone competing with the euro. Actually you might not know what a eurozone is - try Wikipedia)


"The definition says nothing about negative growth, just a fall in growth."

So - any form of growth could be a recession then. Thanks for clearing that one up!
My salary has gone up a little bit, by the way. I think I'll call it a "pay cut".


"Your high interest rates and personal debts are stifeling growth. Thus you are in a recession. Maybe not severe, but still a slow economy."

Jack Daniels.

"This is exactly what the Germans want to avoid. If it is happening then the reform that you want to see there so badly will result in more of this. If anyone is sick it is you. Because you want this to happen. You said so yourself."

Did I? Reproduce it please? You've reproduced all my quotes here so you can reproduce - quite easily - the bit where I say I want Germans to earn one euro per hour.


"In other words the last four paragraphs signify I am right and you are wrong."

To be honest, as a good person myself, if this makes you feel happier with your life then let's go with it. I am wrong and you are right. In fact, no doubt about it, you are always right. This simplifies things greatly because should any of us feel like having an opinion we can come to you to find out what it should be!

Fiends for ever, right?

"But you can't provide proof to back your views up, so you have taken to distract attention from your lack of knowledge on the subject by attacking me. "

I guess all I have to back my "proof" up is a living and practical existance - but thanks to you I now know that Oil will be in euros, a recession is defined as "growth" and that Jack Daniels should be respected at all times.

May I make one little questionette? Just a feeling I have. Having reached your 50's or 60's and seen your peers come and go and prosper within the US economy you have become increasingly bitter and realised that you should have listened to those who knew about pensions, wealth creation, valid economic ideas and sound investment in things that really will happen instead of a twisted view of reality you now pick european econimics and treat that with the same degree of "intelligence" in the hope that failure can become something we all aspire to, thanks to you. Am I close to the target?

And PLEASE note - this is not an "attack" - just a realisation of something I have picked up. An "attack" would be to treat others as if they were below you, to call them names, to make out that they are dumb, or stupid, or British, or whatever. To make wild claims then back off when you have no more wikipedia entries to reposnd with.

Mine is an observation of what I perceive to characterise you, whereas you are better at calling people names than me.

So I guess that's a draw then.

Care to give me some more opinions to adopt?

Its a full moon, the wolves are out

>>May I make one little questionette? Just a feeling I have. Having reached your 50's or 60's and seen your peers come and go and prosper within the US economy you have become increasingly bitter and realised that you should have listened to those who knew about pensions, wealth creation, valid economic ideas and sound investment in things that really will happen instead of a twisted view of reality you now pick european econimics and treat that with the same degree of "intelligence" in the hope that failure can become something we all aspire to, thanks to you. Am I close to the target?<<

Nope, you have got that wrong. He has got plenty!
He just enjoys pretending to be a mean old sod.

>>one little questionette?<<
???? Please lift your game.

Re: Gloating? October 20 2005, 3:12 PM


Just a thought (on re-reading)... passion for what?

metre
If you don't get it's no goo me telling you.

Re: Gloating? October 20 2005, 4:12 PM
(((metre)))
Neither. I was a monkey spanker.


metre
Some useless git used my ID.

Now I'm confused! Are you saying that you don't have a sense of humour? I thought the best form of humour was to laugh at oneself -thus a real human being, and that was your retort to my little ribbing.

Oh I understand he has a passion for something - although I think you'll find that that passion is not for what you'd prefer him to have that passion for.

And to "anon" - I think his issues run far deeper than just being a "grumpy old man"

Re: Gloating? October 21 2005, 1:23 PM

KB
Now I'm confused! Are you saying that you don't have a sense of humour? I thought the best form of humour was to laugh at oneself -thus a real human being, and that was your retort to my little ribbing.

metre
So am I, where do I say I have no sense of humour? Rest assured if I start laughing about myself, I never stop.

KB
Oh I understand he has a passion for something - although I think you'll find that that passion is not for what you'd prefer him to have that passion for.

metre
You do a lot of thinking here.

"Rest assured if I start laughing about myself, I never stop. "

And is this related to the "monkey" comment?

Hold on, hold on! I'm getting confused here. Is that a tongue in cheek reference to your monkey comment which is then "negated" by the "git" thing and thus just a good old fashioned laugh? ie. rather healthily

By the way you don't have to put "KB:", "Metre:" etc in your posts. Unless you are using an odd browser you can clearly see the posts before yours above you once you are viewing the thread. Cuts down on useless clutter.

OOOOOHHH OOOOHHH AAAAHHH AAAAAAHHHH!!!

If you don't shut the hell up, I'm going to have to spank you again

Nice one, metre!

Re: Gloating? October 24 2005, 12:11 PM

KB
Nice one, metre!


metre
You give credit where none is due.

Don't put yourself down - you're showing good humour with your "monkey stuff" (and now I get your "chimpy" reference/joke in the other thread).