This forum contains a lot about metric distance signs being illegal. Some assert that those erecting such signs are criminals and will be prosecuted come the revolution.

Judge Kelly called this into question in his judgement at Maidstone when he referred to this claim in quotation marks.

It's time that this point was thrashed out.

Can anyone tell me what law is being broken, and under which act of parliament etc, could a local council or other body responsible for the erection of a traffic sign that does not strictly comply with the TSRGD 1994 (and any ammendments) be prosecuted?

If so why haven't they?

Government and local authority officials are only allowed to operate within the parameters laid down for them by Acts of Parliament - a long and noble English/British tradition.

A set of regulations, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994 (TSRGD), gives precise rules - for obvious safety reasons - as to what road traffic and pedestrian signs should look like - their height, shape, colour, lettering and so on. Consistency is a prime aim of those regulations.

There is no doubt whatsoever that using metric distances on British road and pedestrian signs is prohibited, as fully conceded, for example, on the pro-metric U.K Metrication Association's website - see its 'home' page'.

Some of us prefer the term 'illegal' in relation to the erection of metric road and pedestrian signs.

Equally accurate would be the terms: 'unlawful', 'illicit', 'forbidden', 'prohibited', 'not permitted', 'not allowed', 'unauthorised', etc. An illustration of another feature of English - its wonderful array of shades of meaning which is unequalled in any other language - ask any philologist.

No-one has ever suggested that erecting a sign that does not conform with the requireemnts of TSRGD 1994 is a criminal act, so no-one can be prosecuted for it.

However, the District Auditor for an authority does have power to surcharge any Councillors or Officers who spend the people's money 'ultra vires' - that is, without lawful authority, as is the case with metric signs. An authority which persistently erects metric signs could be at risk of having its Officers surcharged, though the District Auditor tends only to act in extreme cases.

[NOTE: For the sake of completion for anyone new to this site reading this posting, I hasten to add that metric signage of bridge heights and road widths is permitted in strictly limited circumstances, but only as an optional extra to Imperial signage which is compulsory in all cases]

Tony Bennett

illegal, ungesetzlich, unerlaubt, verboten, nicht zugelassen, nicht autorisiert etc.
After all, English is a germanic language ;)

Not that that would have anything to do with anything.

Ralf

In an informative and very recent essay on the origin and development of the English language (from the arrival of Hengist of Lower Saxony at Pegswell Bay, Kent in AD 449 onwards), which includes an examination of the Germanic origin of English, Mr Geoffrey Sampson, Lecturer at The School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences at the University of Sussex, writes:

"In later centuries, English became a language which was unusually hospitable to vocabulary borrowed from langauges of other peole and races".

The URL for his essay is:

http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/geoffs/FAQ_BirthOfEng.html

The preference for the word illegal in this context is because it gives the impression that a criminal offence is being committed.

Illegal simply means "contrary to law".
A crime need not be a felony, but can be any "act punishable by law: an offence, sin".
(Chambers Etymological English Dictionary)

Ultra vires acts are however eminently prosecutable - and I do not believe that "come the revolution", as you put it, there would be much difficulty in framing suitable indictments against the persons in question.

Very interesting URL indeed, Tony.
I never knew that French was the official government language at some point in England.
The area where I was born in Germany is very close to Lower Saxony and the similarities to English can be striking sometimes, eg we tend to replace a trailing "s" with a "t", changing "was,das,es" to "wat,dat,et" (what,that,it).

Cheers,
Ralf

The English language derives from many different languages. French was the official language of the Government of England from 1066 when William the Conqueror from France defeated the last of the Anglo-saxon kings,Harold.However French never caught on with the ordinary population though the language did absorb a number of words. Since that date we have had a Scottish king whose family caused the only revolution in the UK,a Dutch king and then,of course,a German king whose heir still sits on the throne of the UK and is the head of the Commonwealth

Re:

"However, the District Auditor for an authority does have power to surcharge any Councillors or Officers who spend the people's money 'ultra vires' - that is, without lawful authority, as is the case with metric signs. An authority which persistently erects metric signs could be at risk of having its Officers surcharged, though the District Auditor tends only to act in extreme cases."

And:

"Ultra vires acts are however eminently prosecutable - and I do not believe that "come the revolution", as you put it, there would be much difficulty in framing suitable indictments against the persons in question."

Thankfully sane District Auditors do not consider such a minor technical breach of the Traffic Signs regulations worthy of attention, assuming that is that they even know it has ocurred at all!

Given that the metric system has been legal in the UK since the end of the nineteenth century and the regulations themselves specify the signs and all measurements in metric, and the regs are littered with metric options perhaps they can be forgiven for thinking that a sign quoting a distance in metres is acceptable.

Finally:

"Since that date we have had a Scottish king whose family caused the only revolution in the UK,a Dutch king and then,of course,a German king whose heir still sits on the throne of the UK and is the head of the Commonwealth"

I must point out that OUR commonwealth have all voluntarily chosen to be totally metric countries- not hybrid anarchic messes like ours!

{I must point out that OUR commonwealth have all voluntarily chosen to be totally metric countries- not hybrid anarchic messes like ours!}

Tell that to western Canada.

Correction - tell that to ALL commonwealth countries. The use of imperial at personal level is still prevalent - the metrifascists are always getting this point totally wrong!

Also "However French never caught on with the ordinary population though the language did absorb a number of words"

Sounds like metric dunnit?

Steve, Mike

Fair enough, I won't argue about what people in those countries do at a personal level, but officialy they changed over wholesale in a relatively short time unlike Britain.

I once tried previously to point out on one of these forums the distinction between what people do at a personal level and the official use of metric. I was severely criticised for suggesting this because such a changeover inevitably brought about the death of traditional measures.

You can't have it both ways folks.

{Fair enough, I won't argue about what people in those countries do at a personal level, but officialy they changed over wholesale in a relatively short time unlike Britain.}

Officially, both the U.S. and Britain ARE metric. The U.S. officially switched in 1988 with the passing of the Omnibus Trade and Competiveness Act, which amended the earlier Metric Conversion Act of 1976.

It's interesting to note that a number of congressmen didn't even know they were voting on metrication in 1988. Goes to show the danger of Omnibus bills.

>It's interesting to note that a number of congressmen
>didn't even know they were voting on metrication in
>1988

Well, sad for them and the states they were representing.

Or, in internet language :

RTFM!

"inevitably brought about the death of traditional measures"

I like that one! I suspect you believe in reincarnation then (think about it!)