Just came back from Belfast - any ARM activists there?

There's was one illegal metric sign near the Hiltom in Belfast City Centre.

ARM has no known activists or supporters in Northern Ireland. But we'll add the sign to our 'action list' and will write to the City Council Highways Department

I meant "Hilton", of course.

The sign was a car park direction sign and part of it showed the symbol of a man walking, with "85m from roundabout" under it.

Of course if the car park was 85 miles from the roundabout then maybe I've underestimated the health attitudes of the men and women of Ulster and in fact this would be seen as "a good walk"

IMHO it would be irresponsible for ARM to get involved in NI. The Irish Republic is currently meticating her road signs so the issue of whether to metricate or not to metricate road signs in NI is highly political and is best left to the authorities in that province.

Moreover, the road signs in Northern Ireland
are regulated under different rules to those in England, Scotland and Wales.

With respect that is the daftest thing I've read from you (at least a lot of what you post is intelligent, unlike some others on your side).

This one sign stood out like a sore thumb amongst all the signs I saw was this one. All signs are instantly recognisably "British" (unlike the Eire signs that look more like U.S. / Australian signs)

I detect a hint that you haven't actually been to N.I. before?

It is more "British" than most of Britain is!

Also you presuppose that the half metrication of road signs in Eire was welcomed with much support - nothing can be further from the truth (as the Dail moves ever closer to Brussels by the day).

As far as I can see, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994 (of which I have a copy) apply equally in Nortern Ireland.

I've been to both northern and southern Ireland in recent years and certainly the signing of the roads is an utter mess in the south with kilometre signs along most of the main roads and signs in miles along mnst minor roads. Almost all height signs are in feet and inches south of the border as well as north.

The loyalist community of Northern Ireland (thugs belonging to paramilitary gangs excepted) are a fascinating people, very well educated, intelligent and articulate, with a deep knowledge of their country's history and a commitment to the key principles of British life e.g. monarchical government, jury trial, habeas corpus etc.

Many folk in N.I. resisted the oppressive 2000 Metrication Regulations and I think many are still selling in pounds and ounces (as indeed are many, probably more, south of the border).

We are, after all, talking about illegal signs. Having said that, I'd be slightly more comfortable about amending an illegal metric sign in Antrim than one in Fermanagh or south Tyrone

Steve, I think that Tony understood what I was saying when he wrote

<<
We are, after all, talking about illegal signs. Having said that, I'd be slightly more comfortable about amending an illegal metric sign in Antrim than one in Fermanagh or south Tyrone
>>

Tony - I searched the current version of the Traffic signs regulations. The regs do not specify an area to which they apply (that is probably in the 1984 Act of which I have no copy), but if one searches the regs, there are numerous references to "England", "Scotland" and "Wales", but none to "Ireland". Perhaps you could point me in the direction of the actual clause that references Northern Ireland.

As far as I am aware English law covers England, Wales and N.I.

BTW - Tony - Butchers/Veg shops did use lb/oz in Belfast (the capital of N.I.).

In Dublin (the capital of Eire) the use of lb/oz was even more popular.

I don't think that republicans in the North have an aversion to ft/in, miles/yards unless you think they might have a hang-up about the word "imperial" however I credit them with more intelligence than that. Unless you think that Americans see themselves as part of the Empire too!

This is a typical extract from the current Traffic Regs:

<<
(a) a road on which there is provided a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland and which is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph;
>>

Note - no mention of N. Ireland

Why did they represent the speed limit in mph? Surely if they say 183 metres i.s.o. 200yds then they should have put 49 "point whatever" km/h. That way the sentence would look even more pathetic and servile.

I know that was o.t. but I wanted to make that point.

I'm going to "furnish" my desk now!

Steve,

I agree with you. The speed limit should be in km/h, but Her Majesty's Government are not noted for action in this sort of area. Take the decimalisation of our coinage. In 1849 the 2/- piece was introduced and for many years no half crowns were struck. Them towars the end of Victoria's reign, half crowns wer again struck. The 2/- and 2/6 coins lived side by side until 1971 when Britain was the last coutnry in the Commonwealth to decimalise. The whole process took 122 years.

I fear that metrication might take even longer.

I hope that "longer" and "infinite" can be interchanged here!

Soon the government will be doing what we want them to do at this rate!!

What they should do is save like crazy for "K" day, keeping the money back over a few years making a budget for total metrication then at the last moment scrapping the idea because only 3% of HM Gov electors want that to happen and then give us a huge tax cut by using the money that was saved that would be a total waste if it had been spent to "making numbers different on signs" and all that money saved from moving millions of signposts a few feet for no discernable advantage to anyone whatsoever apart from people like you who like the word "metre" but detest the word "yard".

Thats what they should do.

On the contrary, a rolling metrication program could be introduced and some 60% to 70% of the signs metricated as they are due for replacement.

At the same time, an education program should be in place to help people think in meters and kilometers. For example, road junctions on trunk roads could be numbered by using the distnace from the road's reference point. (This is done in SOuth Africa and in Spain). Thus, if the reference point on the A1 is the M25 interchange, Stevenage would be at Junction 20 (if it is 20km from the M25) and Newcastle would be at Junction 430 (assuming it to be 430km from the M25). This would also remove the ridiculous number of bodges that we have on the M4 which has Junctions 4a and 4b (afterthoughts) while it has a Junction 8/9 (where two junctions were merged into one).

I hate to mention it, but the system Martin describes is actually in use already on several Spanish motorways. On holiday on the north Cantabrian coast last year, we travelled along a motorway and though I hate to admit it, turned off at 'Exit 393', which I think was exactly 393 kilometres from Bilbao. Don't tell the Department for Transport...

Thanks Tony.

I spent most of last year working in Italy (therebu boosting Britain's foreign reserves). Although the Italians could learn a lot from Britain about motorway construction and sign-posting, the Italians are much better than us at telling people where they are.

The distance markers on British motorways are the white posts that are 100m apart and have miniscule letters on them (just large enough to be read by a passenger of a vehicle in the slow lane).

The equivalent markers on Italian roads (motorways and "SS" roads - equivalent of Britain's "A" roads) are on the central reservation (in the case of dual carriageways). They too are spaced at 100m intervals but the lettering is twice the size (at least) of the UK lettering. Moreover, every kilometer is a large sign (about the size of a sped restriction sign), square with a white field, a black border and black letters. Thus, when I was returning from Rome on the [Italian] A1, I could see at an instant that I was 550km from the start of the A1. A quick look at the map told me that the A1 started at Milan. It certainly helped me to plan my journey.

Personally I would hate the idea of each motorway junction being the number of miles from the start of the motorway.

Imagine the "look and feel" of directions. Any trip to scotland will have awful long numbers!

Also I like the fact that "at junction 13" I would feel close to my exit junction if I was heading for junction 14.

Nah, even though it would be interesting to know the number of miles involved I'd rather stick to normal jnc numbers.

Back to the budget to replace our signs with foreign ones - all junctions (with some exceptional circumstances) are marked at convenient mile, and half mile locations (which is actually quite neat if you are travelling at a mile a minute -60mph- as you can "time" your exit) imaging the horror of keeping those signs but putting thousands of metres on them? OR the cost of moving them?

Also the 3-2-1 markers boards? - pity the poor sod who'll have to dig 'em up and move then a few feet!

Luckily there are no plans to do this (Sorry, Tony, I don't buy your conspiracy theory on this one).

"Luckily there are no plans to do this (Sorry, Tony, I don't buy your conspiracy theory on this one)."

Wait for it, it will happen.

I assume you like "getting old"

Jeesh, apparently we started "going metric" back in the 60's (before I was born) and now there's a generation growing up beneath me that "speaks imperial" - if I were the sort that was waiting for the "process" to complete then I'd die a very sad old man.

And that, folks, is why I am very comfortable indeed!

<<
(which is actually quite neat if you are travelling at a mile a minute -60mph- as you can "time" your exit)
>>


I am usually more interested in door-to-door distances. Like Steve, I use the fact that there are 60 minutes in an hour, but I reckon on driving an average of 60 km/h (more if there is a lot of motorway driving, less if it is mainly urban or country lane driving).

A few years ago I put this to some friends who were travelling from North Hampshire to Wolverhampton (pre M40 days). The distance was 135 miles which I converted to 225km. I suggested that the journey would take 3h45. ALthough my suggestion was pooh-poohed, my friends nevertheless timed their journey (door-to-door) and it took them 3h40!

I suggest that you try this estimate on journeys of mixed road types.

Steve wrote
<<
Also the 3-2-1 markers boards? - pity the poor sod who'll have to dig 'em up and move then a few feet!
>>

Two points:
1. The "poor sod" wil be paid for doing a piece of work - he would rather do that than be unemployed.

2. Some of the 3-2-1 markers are at 100m intervals and some are at 100yd intervals. You can tell which are which by checking whetheror not the spaces begtween the marker boards and the distance markers are the same or not. (The distance markers are at 100m intervals).

Well this is how I don't do it:

If I am visiting Wales (the folks) who are 120 miles away I calculate that it will take 2 hours - including the bridge and possible "slow-downs". I'll average about 70mph.

If I get there a shade under 2 hours then I feel good, but its usually 2 hours.

I don't drive during "rush hours"

If I tried that in km or km/h or hundreds of minutes then - just like 97% of the UK - it would be alien to me!

That system works and so I don't need to change it, because the alternative is not better

Steve wrote
<<
Personally I would hate the idea of each motorway junction being the number of miles from the start of the motorway.
>>

Steve, you already have such markers if you wish to use them. You just need:

1. Good eyesight
2. Be prepared to drive in the slow lane
3. Be prepared to work in kilometres.

I use them quite frequently - for example the Eastern turn-off to Swindon is 123km from Hyde Park Corner (the reference point for the M4).

The markers concerend are every 100m apart and are to be found on motorways and also on some "A" roads. (They are on the central reservation on "A" roads).

>>1. The "poor sod" wil be paid for doing a piece of work - he would rather do that than be unemployed.<<

That is a bad use of employee time, and the tax payer is paying

>>2. Some of the 3-2-1 markers are at 100m intervals and some are at 100yd intervals. You can tell which are which by checking whetheror not the spaces begtween the marker boards and the distance markers are the same or not. (The distance markers are at 100m intervals).<<

3-2-1 are "meant" to be at 100yd intervals, but the fact that some are not will make you exited at where a hole for a sign was dug! This makes for interesting living!

I get the feeling that you use the 100mtr sticks just because they are metric!

Ignore for now that they are not intended for use by the driving public (they're for recovery/emergency vehicles) am I right in thinking that you get yourself to use these tiny signs simply because they are metric?

And if so can you not understand the term "yards" - can you not work with them? Will you stubbornly not work with them?

If this is true then this is a very sad thing for a human.

Also - if it is true then all you need to do is take whatever the number is in yrds and shave about 10% off.

Do you really need to know that accurately though? Why not just think of a yard as a "pace" - simple eh?

Finally if someone in the UK asked for directions, would you force km upon them? And would it be because you genuinely cannot imagine how long a mile is?

This is truly interesting stuff!

....and as far as drinving in the slow lane concentrating on the small numbering on the little sticks by the road - may I suggest you drive more safely and look at the road and the large signs put there for everyone to read?

Risking all just to use metric signs not designed for road users sounds like dangerous driving to me, punishible with upto 12 - non-decimel - points (ie a ban)

Hate imperial if you wish, but lets not take risks shall we?

<<
I get the feeling that you use the 100mtr sticks just because they are metric!
>>

AS a child, I lived in a small South African town called Colenso. Colenso was on the main road between Johannesbirg and Durban. The milestones in South Africa at the time (pre-metrication) were substantial yellow concrete posts. The nearest towns to Colenso were Ladysmith (16 miles to the North) and Estcourt (23 miles to the South). Whenever it was necessary to locate a point between these towns, people did so with reference to the yellow milestones. In addition, the local garage displayed a strip-map showing all the towns between Durban and Johannesburg. It showed that COlenso was 148 miles from Durban and 260 from Johannesburg.

With this upbringing, it was quite natural for me to use whatever distance markers were available.

When I was working in Italy last year, I stayed in a hotel a little out of Rome. On the hotel's literature, its position is given as via Salaria, 24,7km (ie 24,7km from the start of the via Salaria - also known as the SS4)


<<
And if so can you not understand the term "yards" - can you not work with them? Will you stubbornly not work with them?
>>
When South Africa went metric, I made an effort to get used to the metric system.


<<
Do you really need to know that accurately though? Why not just think of a yard as a "pace" - simple eh?
>>
I think that we had this conversation when I was in Italy. Anyway, that evening, when I wnet for my evening walk, I counted my paces between each 100m marker. I averaged 127 paces per 100m making each of my paces a little less than 0.8m (or 2ft 8in).


<<
Finally if someone in the UK asked for directions, would you force km upon them? And would it be because you genuinely cannot imagine how long a mile is?
>>
For longer distances, I use miles, but for shorter distances I use metres.