Those visitng two delightful spots in Hampshire and Dorset - Christchurch Priory and Fritham in the New Forest - will now have better guidance on the distance to local sights. An iron fingerpost sign outside Christchurch Priory has had four distances converted from metric to Imperial, whilst the Forestry Commission car parks at Fritham, which last week said '50m' to Fritham Car Park and '500m' to Eyworth Car Park, now read '80 yds' and '1/4 mile' respectively'.

Easier to understand, and now legal.

Of course the Forestry commission, in their quest to encourage visitors, delight in trying to confuse them with those naughty metric signs.

re (Stan): "Of course the Forestry commission, in their quest to encourage visitors, delight in trying to confuse them with those naughty metric signs".

REPLY: The Forestry Commission has written to the Council of Active Resistance to Metrication fully conceding that their road signs to car parks etc. in metres are illegal.

Furthermore, they promised to change them all.

They seem to be extraordinarily slow in doing so and we are therefore hastening the process of legalisation of their signs. The only sensible response of the Forestry Commission is to applaud our actions, as they save them a lot of money

The Christchurch ammended signs are quite noticeable and a good advertisement for the cause. Someone had taken off the original ammendments on the lower signs, a higher one remained as too high to reach without a ladder. Now the ammendments are back as it should be..... pointing out to people that the metric measurements are not supposed to be there! Many will wonder what it is all about and after asking around or reading in the newspaper finally figure out just what the significance of it all is.
I know that in the Uk the imposition of the metric system is done by stealth and without popular approval or vote. In the USA the government tried to get metric going here many years ago. The result was that it fell flat becuse people really did not want it. As of now there are only some car parts and nuts and bolts in metric which come from elsewhere. In building and home construction there are no metric measurements. Nuts and bolts, lumber, bricks, roof shingles, blueprints are in inches and feet! Some veicles have both metric and inch sizes. Robber baron Mulitnational Corporations like WAllMART have metric imported goods in their stores here.
It seems that in the Uk the issue is one of governmental insistence of this change and in reality sleased in to being without public approval. Here it was just suggested as a way to modernize and be in step with some other parts of the world and a few media efforts were tried to gather some momentum. Government insistence was not in the effort to make us change, as if we had better do it. Just flat out deliberate change of standards by government officials was not in the mix as in your country. Same objective different motivation. Without a major effort by the government in the USA total metrification will not happen here. Why, because we are not being force fed undemocratic regulations by the European Union! Long live freedom, long live Democracy, long live Individual and group resistance to Undemocratic Government! The authority to govern is from the people not from a few politicians who want to impose their will on the people. ..... A Sypathetic Observer from the USA

re (R Coones): "The authority to govern is from the people not from a few politicians who want to impose their will on the people".

REPLY: Not any more it ain't! Buon giorno! I havva been looking at youra website and I see this statementa from R Coones and I laugh! Si, the authority to govern *is* now from a few politicians who want to impose their will on the people. Ha Ha!

From Signor Romano Prodi, Presidente of the European Union, from the land of the Mafiosi [see LEGAL NOTE below]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Legal note: Romano Prodi is currently under investigation for corruption and fraud by the Italian judicial authorities for the fourth time in a decade

Q. What's the difference between an English and a Sicilian actuary?

A. An English actuary can tell you how many people are likely to die in the next half-hour. A Sicilian actuary can give you their names and addresses

>>>"Just flat out deliberate change of standards by government officials was not in the mix as in your country...Without a major effort by the government in the USA total metrification will not happen here".

Sorry RCoones, but you are wrong. The metric officials in Washington are just as determined as their counterparts in London and Brussells.

<<
The metric officials in Washington are just as determined as their counterparts in London and Brussells.
>>

I haven't heard of a single attempt from Washington to metricate anything since 1994, with the exception of the forum on updating labeling laws that happened last year.

Listen up, you two. Compulsory metric conversion for most retail goods has ALREADY HAPPENED at state level in about forty-five states. NIST officials are responsible.

Metric legislation in these states is the same as that currently in the EU: the only system required is metric. US inch/pound units are neither required nor permissable as an alternative. Only metric matters.

The recent forums in Washington are an attempt to bring in this EU-style arrangement for all foods and goods under the FPLA, thereby completing the compulsory metric conversion process for all goods except items sold loose and one or two specialised areas.

Please print this out and read it:
http://www.bwmaonline.com/International%20-%20NIST%20dispute%20-%20printer%20friendly.htm

Understand the implications. Ask questions in this forum if you don't get it. When the penny's dropped, ALERT YOUR CONGRESSMEN.

<<
When the penny's dropped, ALERT YOUR CONGRESSMEN.
>>

Yes, but until the penny is dropped, keep quiet about it. Making a scene right now, when Congress seems to have forgotten the issue, will do more harm than good.

The reason why Congress is not concerned with it is because US policy is established and they are not changing it. The matter is closed.

That is the reason why NIST are doing it in the undeclared way that they are. Unless people in Congress are alerted, compulsory metric conversion will be slipped in.

Compulsory metric legislation has been enacted in 45 states over the past five years and not one single state legislature has even had a debate on the subject. If you were to ask the general public in each of these states which system they use for shopping, they will say US.

No-one has yet realised what has happened. That is why action is needed now.

It's history repeating itself again.

And does anyone think US politicians care any more than UK ones do?

<<
That is the reason why NIST are doing it in the undeclared way that they are. Unless people in Congress are alerted, compulsory metric conversion will be slipped in.
>>
Currently, imperial labeling is required on almost everything. This is not a NIST requirement. This is required by a law passed by Congress. It takes an act of Congress to repeal or amend a law. No agency (such as NIST) can do so.
The mandatory imperial labeling requirement cannot be changed by NIST. The only danger is if NIST convinces a congressman to slip it into an act and Congress passes it.


<<
Compulsory metric legislation has been enacted in 45 states over the past five years and not one single state legislature has even had a debate on the subject. If you were to ask the general public in each of these states which system they use for shopping, they will say US.
>>
I am not sure what you mean by "compulsory metric legislation." Compulsory for what? You mention shopping in the next sentence. If you are talking about the labels on goods sold in stores, federal law explicitly trumps all state law.

The above does not refer to shopping covered by federal legislation; it refers to goods covered by state legislation which is applicable where federal law is absent (eg DIY).

State legislation is less important (generally) and therefore the "soft under-belly". This is why NIST has started there and has made the most ground. Having achieved what it has, it is now saying in Washington that the FPLA needs to be brought "into line" with practices at state level.

>>> "I am not sure what you mean by "compulsory metric legislation." Compulsory for what?"

Compulsory to use metric. There is no corresponding legislative element to use inch-pound any more. It has been deleted. Email me your home address and I will post you the relevant legislative extracts. Or they might be available on the web.

I'm almost persuaded not to post my belated response to Tony Bennett after all the irrelevent nonsense posted above.

Instead of high-jacking every thread on this forum could people please create one of their own whenever they have something to say that bears no relation to the original thread?

Anyway to return to my point!

I refer to this from Tony:
<<
REPLY: The Forestry Commission has written to the Council of Active Resistance to Metrication fully conceding that their road signs to car parks etc. in metres are illegal.

Furthermore, they promised to change them all.

They seem to be extraordinarily slow in doing so and we are therefore hastening the process of legalisation of their signs. The only sensible response of the Forestry Commission is to applaud our actions, as they save them a lot of money
>>

I think you miss my point slightly. Conceding the (alledged) legal position is not the same as saying that your version is easier to understand.

Furthermore given that the signs in question are not really traffic signs likely to have road safety implications is it really surprisig that they are not in a hurry to change them?

Why is the above nonsense?

The Council of ARM is pleased to announce that we have today received a very conciliatory letter from the Forestry Commission.

They say that the reason why all their road signs have not yet been converted back to Imperial is because they have delegated authority down to the four 'nations' of the U.K. and the message hadn't been filtered through to England yet (sic!). The Forestry Commission's headquarters are in Scotland.

They have promised to permanently erect their signs at Fritham and Shefford (see another thread) into Imperial.

Thay have also asked that ARM notify them in future of any 'rogue' illegal signs still in metric, as they would prefer to change them to Imperial themselves than have ARM do the job for them.

Before our direct action campaign, the Forestry Commission ignored our letters and didn't even bother replying to them. It now looks like the imminent and permanent end of illegal Forestry Commission signs

Mr Bennett,

I don't believe your last post where you claim that the FC have totally collapsed on the issue of metric signs and are even looking to you as a spy.

Perhaps you'd care to reproduce an unedited version of the letter where all that is being said.

Dear forum owner, you claim that some 45 states have made metric compulsory, and that USC is no longer required. Where did you see such a thing!?? I live in the US and I believe that many of the states in the union would be to conservative to pass such a law.

I read in the inrtoduction of this post that ARM changed a 500metre sign to a1/4 mile sign. That isn't even accurate! A quarter mile is 440yards(400metres). That sign is off by a considerable distance 500metres=550 yards, not 440 as the 1/4 mile sign now says. An Error of 110 yards is far to large. If the signs are to be changed, please change them to the proper imperial distances.

Roth, the legislation that BWMA is referring to applies to a few consumer products that federal legislation does not apply to, i.e., things which are made by companies not engaged in interstate commerce. For the time being, I believe all states that require metric also require imperial to be shown. The other few either require only imperial or have no laws on the matter. If many states drop the requirement for imperial, it will probably not have much effect, but there is a concern that it may trigger Congress to do so, which would have a much bigger impact.

re (Stan): "I don't believe your last post where you claim that the FC have totally collapsed on the issue of metric signs and are even looking to you as a spy. Perhaps you'd care to reproduce an unedited version of the letter where all that is being said".

REPLY to Stan: The letter was received by another member of the Council of Active Resistance to Metrication. In view of your challenge, I am arranging for a copy of it to be sent to me. I shall then reproduce it in full, and I shall publish an address from which a copy of it may be obtained, if you remain in any doubt that the contents are complete and unedited.

Please be patient for a few days whilst the copy is sent on to me and I get round to typing it up for this bulletin board

>>> "For the time being, I believe all states that require metric also require imperial to be shown".

No, this is not correct. The 45 states that require metric no longer require imperial. Only about five states accord both systems equal status.

But no company is going to produce special packaging or labelling for those five states. It would be much more practical to have one line of products with dual units that can be sold everywhere. So in effect, imperial is mandated.
This is similar to the current situation between the US and EU, that the EU is trying to upset in 2010.

The letter has arrived sooner than I thought and here is the full text:
___________________________________________________
From: K.A. Ashbee
for M. R. Thornycroft,
Land Agent - England,
Forestry Commissoin - England
340 Bristol Business Park
Coldharbour Lane
BRISTOL
BS16 1EJ

Tel: 0117 906 6000
e-mail: fe.england@forestry.gsi.gov.uk
Ref: L28/1/9

To: Miss Polly Peck,
Active Resistance to Metrication

Date: 27 April 2004

Dear Miss Peck

re: FORESTRY COMMISSION SIGNS

Thank you for your letter of 24 March to the Director General of the Forestry Commission regarding imperial road signs. I am replying because one of the outcome's [sic] of the Forestry Devolution Review that was [sic again] day to day responsibility for the Commission's activities in each country was passed to the Country Directors.

The Forestry Commission has issued instructions to its staff regarding road signs indicating distances in imperial measures. Clearly this was overlooked at Shefford [see 'Better in Bedfordshire' thread on this board] and I have now asked for the sign to be replaced. I am also writing to tell all District Managers to draw their attention again to the instructions on the design of signs. The New Forest District cannot find the FC sign you refer to at Fritham. If you can give me a grid reference or a plan, I will be happy for our staff to search again.

We are pleased to co-operate as above and would be grateful in the future if other incorrect signs are located you can either inform me or the local district offices. We have thousands of signs across our 260,000 hectare estate in England, and although this mistake should not be happening, if it does this would help to rectifying [sic once again] the error more quickly than your members tampering with the signs.

Yours sincerely etc.
___________________________________________________

"260,000 hectare estate in England"

How childish - and another indication of the incorrect use of metric.

SteveH wrote

<<
"260,000 hectare estate in England"

How childish - and another indication of the incorrect use of metric.
>>

The Forestry COmmission Estate is actually made up of many parcels of land. It is probable that each has been measured in hectares and the figure that you see is merely the total. If you wish to use square kilometres instead of hectares, it is a trivial task to convert ha to km˛. Conversion from acres to square miles is notr so trivial.

BTW 260,000 ha is equal to 2600km˛. It is easy to visualise this as a square of land, each side a little over 50km. (50˛ = 2500). (All this was done without recourse to a calculator. I am sure that even Steve could also do this without using a calculator).

Bud,
Imperial is not mandated. It's just a system that once used to be necessary for state-regulated trade in the USA.
Whether US producers want to put imperial information on a packet is not the issue here. If they want, they can put on the Head Office telephone number, the colour of the product, or the baseball score.
Additional information provided privately is a matter for individuals. What we are talking about is what system of weights and measures is authorised for trade in US law.
As far as the 45 states are concerned, it is metric and only metric.

The likely reason why mandatory conversion to metric has still not been noticed by Americans is that most Americans look at the label, see two measurements and assume that the US still operates dual labelling. It doesn't: dual labelling for most states ended after 1992.

It's no different from California having a policy that states both English and Spanish must be displayed on all packaging - and then passing an amendment saying "Spanish need not be shown where English is displayed" - but then insisting that, because people are still "allowed" to use Spanish, the policy of parity still exists. It doesn't, and neither does dual labelling.

BWMA, what I meant was that as long as even a few states require imperial, it is in effect required for the entire country. Companies will of course want to produce one line of packaging for all the states, and it will have to have imperial on it. Also, federal law still requires imperial for most labelling that falls under federal jurisdiction.

BMWA where did you see this? When did it happen? And what five states havent passed this law? I dont think any big changes will happen in the US till 2008 or 2009.

"It is easy to visualise this as a square of land, each side a little over 50km."

Hmmm, no. Not even in an aircraft. I could not visualise 50km.

Now acres? Well that's a different story, since most of the UK's green areas are marked out in acres and mulitples thereof.

SteveH wrote

<<
Now acres? Well that's a different story, since most of the UK's green areas are marked out in acres and mulitples thereof.
>>

Please explain?

...as you fly over the countryside you can see plots of land - these use acres as their base measure.

Do you know what? This website has got me scared! I was just in a meeting and the chairman was a young (late 20s) Sout African.

When he mentioned somnething as 400yds I thought of you, martin!

Now *thats* scarey!

Thank you Tony for taking the trouble to reproduce the letter as I requested. Much appreciated.

I do however have some observations.

* K.A. Ashbee apparently wasn't feeling very well at the time of writing, being sic all over the place. Maybe couldn't stomach it.

* Miss Polly Peck didn't even have the decency to correspond in her own real name. I am also wondering how they managed to get a letter to "Active Resistance to Metrication" with no postal address.

* A reference to hectares in land area and the request for a grid reference (km squares on OS maps) shows they normally work in metric.

* There is a reference to "road signs" in the letter. Does K.A. Ashbee acually know what you were talking about?

* With all due respects to K.A. Ashbee I would advise him/her to consult with his/her senior colleages before responding to threatening letters from the likes of ARM who pretend to know the law and to be acting on its behalf.

re: (Stan): "Miss Polly Peck didn't even have the decency to correspond in her own real name. I am also wondering how they managed to get a letter to "Active Resistance to Metrication" with no postal address"

Dear Stan,

My postal address was omitted by Tony Bennett from his posting about the Forestry Commission letter, but you can contact me at: 'Meadowbank', 9 Station Cottages, Brampton Road, HUNTINGDON, PE29 3BW. That was the address to which the Forestry Commission wrote.

Yours sincerely


Polly Peck (Miss)