A novel way of solving the imperial -v- metric dispute has been thought up by Southwark Council. If you walk along the South Bank, east from Waterloo Bridge towards Tower Bridge, you'll eventually come to a pedestrian sign - in white on blue exactly as prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations - bearing the legend: "Tourist Information Centre - 7 mins'.

A bit further on is one saying: "Tourist Information Centre - 5 mins". Just east of the tourist information office is one saying "Tourist Information Centre - 2 mins".

The Traffic Signs Regulations do not provide for 'mins', so to comply with the law, Southwark Council would have had to get special written permission from the Secretary for State.

I don't think that the U.K. has got permission from Brussels to sign distances in minutes (always assuming that's what 'mins' means). I don't know if Brussels has got approved notation yet for 'mins' but no doubt Martin will be able to assist us on that. Mind you, minutes are not a metric unit.

The answer is, of course, for Southwark Council to comply with the law forthwith and convert to yards. A preliminary ARM assessment suggests that the tourist office have based their calculations on a walking rate of about 85-90 yards a minute.

Mind you, if 'minutes' and even 'hours' were to be approved for road, cycleway and footpath signs, it could open up some new possibilties. I have come across it before, on footpath signs in the Swiss Alps

I actually think listing time instead of distance makes a lot of sense.
BTW, minute is a metric unit, but not an SI unit.

In metric terms a "minute" is a bodged workaround - they failed to metricate time.


Could this new signage call for multi - labelling?

I mean, it should read:

Tourist information:
Sprint 3 mins
Fast walk 4 mins
Walk 5 mins
Saunter 6 mins
Drunk 7 mins
Grudgingly shuffling behind mum and dad 8 mins
Under the influence of class-A drugs 2 mins 32.8 seconds

re (SteveH): "Could this new signage call for multi-labelling?

REPLY: But of course. As in:


'Liverpool via old, congested M6: 4 hours'

'Liverpool via nice new cheap M6 Toll Road: Just 2 hours 20 minutes'


Or as in:

'Cliff Top to Promenade: 20 minutes'

'Promenade to Cliff Top: 1 hour 45 minutes'


Or as in:

Hackney (Rush Hour) - 3 hours and 15 minutes'

Hackney (Daytiem) - 1 hour'

Hackney (Other Times) - 25 minutes'



Or as in:

'Footpath to Chipping Sodbury (Dry Condition) - 1 hour'

'Footpath to Chippinog Sodbury (Path Muddy) - 2 hours'

'Footpath to Chipping Sodbury (Flooded) - Use alternative route via Upper Tweedale - 3 hours'

Yes, we all often measure distance by way of the time it takes to travel that distance, however... it is like selling things by the individual item at markets and the like. Can't use pounds, no one wishes to use Kilograms, therefore "30 pence per item" occurs. Complete rubbish.

30 p per item is much better. No weighing, easy math. For many things, that is the way it is done here.

It is an inferior way of measuring, bud, as the different items vary greatly in weight, despite all being oranges or whatever.

I beleive that according to UK consumer law, fruit and vegetables may be sold by the piece without stating the weight provided that a package does not have more than eight pieces. Thus, it would be legal to sell a packet of apples provided that there were no mor than eight apples.

There is considerable diversity across the EU on this matter. In Italy, for example, everything is weighed (including bread rolls and whole pizzas) whereas in Germany it is certainly legal for Pizza Hut to sells slices of pizza by the piece.

re (martin): "There is considerable diversity across the E.U. on this matter [whether certain goods are sold by weight or not]..."

REPLY: What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! What on earth are the Eurocrats playing at?!?! They haven't sorted out the British pint and mile yet - and now we learn they haven't even standardised* whether bread should be sold by weight or not!!!!

How on earth can we achieve consistency and understanding across the E.U.? How will a Lithuanian know whether 1 euro 25 for a baguette or 79p for a large sliced brown loaf or 2 euros for a loaf of Roggenbrot represents good value or not?

It's about time they acted. I want to know how many euros per 100 grams my bread is costing


* The word you shoud use is 'harmonised' - R. Prodi, President of the European Commission. I'll let it pass this time, but I've made a note

<<<whereas in Germany it is certainly legal for Pizza Hut to sells slices of pizza by the piece>>>

God that depresses me.
Not the whole "pizza" thing.
But the statist interference evident in that sentence of desiring a piece of pizza for God's sake.

re (martin): "...whereas in Germany it is certainly legal for Pizza Hut to sells slices of pizza by the piece..."


REPLY: But surely the Germans must have a detailed set of regulations governing the size, weight, content, sale-by-date, etc. of a 'piece of pizza'?

Or is it just a case of 'how long is a piece of string'?

English law has stipulated the weight of bread available for sale to the general public since around the 13th century. As far as I am aware, few other countries have done this.

Does Tony advocate that the UK should remove weight controls on bread to bring us in line with the rest of Europe or that the rest of the EC should be brought into line with us?

I don't think Tony advocates either approach.

These kind of regulations have always been there. We just don't notice them, because they do not affect our lives.

People are only noticing them now in the UK because we are changing from one measurement system to another.

<<People are only noticing them now in the UK because we are changing from one measurement system to another.>>

So for 40 yrs people have been "noticing" this.....?

SteveH
Congrats if you get this right, but what weight was a loaf (or a half loaf) defined as (in imperial weight) before they were metricated? I would lay odds that you never ever noticed......

Indeed - I bought them by the "pack" - which is an even older unit of measure.

I'll hazard a guess though - 8 ounces?
I guess that might make the metric equiv about 300 grammes? (0.3 Kg / 30cg)

Anyway - what is bread if it doesn't have a quarter pounder betwixt it?

Yeah, but unless you are 750 years old, the pack was standardised at 14oz (half loaf) & 28oz (loaf)
It's now 400g/800g
Oops, thats an example of metric upsizing..... (runs away and hides!)
Nice jest re quarterpounder 'tho!

Well, it is about a quarter once bigger in metric. I would still prefer it was 28oz.

"It's now 400g/800g"

I really didn't know that.

See, I really only tend to use one unit when I buy bread.

"the loaf" (don't think it has an abbreviation).

A "loaf" can be divided into "the slice"

Right now I cannot remember how many 'slices' to the 'loaf' but I do know that this unit, when doubled, constitutes 'the sandwich'.

I've heard that three "sandwiches" equals "the greedy b**tard" whereas zero "slices" equals "the atkins-friendly".

And so the mirth goes on.

<<<Well, it is about a quarter once bigger in metric. I would still prefer it was 28oz.>>>

Do you REALLY care?

...yes. This IS a board featuring people who care abut this issue. I don't lay awake at night crying over the issue, for sure, but it would do my heart glad if the loaf was marked 28oz (704g) or 800g (28.25oz).

re (SteveH):

"...'the loaf' (don't think it has an abbreviation).

A 'loaf' can be divided into 'the slice'.

Right now I cannot remember how many 'slices' to the 'loaf' but I do know that this unit, when doubled, constitutes 'the sandwich'.

I've heard that three 'sandwiches' equals 'the greedy b**tard' whereas zero 'slices' equals 'the atkins-friendly'".


REPLY:

You will find that under EC Directive 1760/60, the approved abbreviation for 'loaf' is 'B' (the German for bread is 'Brot').

The approved abbreviation for 'slice' is 's' and under EC Directive 5280/12 there must be no more than 25 slices to a 'B' and no fewer than 20.

The abbreviation for 'sandwich' is, of course, ss (2 slices, or s's).

A slice of toast is, of course, 't', and two slices of toast is 'cm', which you might think refers to 'centimetres' but which is actually short for 'croque-monsieur'.

According to Regulation 63360/16, toast served in a cafe within the European Union must not exceed Colour No. Brown 6080 in brownness nor be less brown than Colour No. Brown 1200.

For the offence of serving 't' or 'cm' that is less than or more than the approved brownness... (more later)

Martin

Was that you or is someone being naughty?

Whatever, it brightened my day!

<<
Martin

Was that you or is someone being naughty?
>>

It sounds more in keeping with the weak attempts at mockery we've come to expect from the UKIP camp.

Re the humble loaf:

After all these years I'm surprised that anyone who has ever bought bread doesn't know by now that the normal sizes are 400 g for a small loaf, and 800 g for a full sized loaf.

There are about 20 slices in a medium sliced 800 g loaf, so each has about 40 g of bread.

Can be useful to know if you are dieting and are budgeting what you eat.

UKIP? What have UKIP got to do with anything?

Here's an absolutely classic set of Regulations which kept a few pen-pushers busy in the early 1980s:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAXIMUM PRICES (BREAD) ORDER, 1982.

The Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism, in exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 17 of the Prices Act, 1958 (No. 4 of 1958) and the Industry, Commerce and Tourism (Alteration of Name of Department and Title of Minister) Order, 1981 (S.I. No. 290 of 1981), hereby orders as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Maximum Prices (Bread) Order, 1982.

2. This Order shall come into operation on the 17th day of January, 1982.

3. In this Order—

"batch bread" means bread which is not baked in containers and which is sold or offered for sale in loaves of which the outside is not all crust;

"pan bread" means bread baked in containers.

4. (1) The maximum price at which batch bread and pan bread may be sold by retail shall be—

( a ) in the case of batch bread which is not packed in the manner specified in paragraph (b) of this Article—
(i) 22½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 0.88 lb. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 400 grams),
(ii) 40p per loaf when sold in loaves of 1.76 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 800 grams), or loaves of batch bread joined together the total weight of which is 1.76 lbs.
(iii) 59p per loaf when sold in loaves of 2.75 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 1250 grams),
(iv) 77p per loaf when sold in loaves of 3.52 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 1600 grams), or loaves of batch bread joined together the total weight of which is 3.52 lbs.

( b ) in the case of batch bread which is packed (whether sliced or not sliced) by the baker thereof, in a covering or wrapping made of waxed paper or plastics—
(i) 24p per loaf when sold in loaves of 0.88 lb.,
(ii) 41½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 1.76 lbs.,
(iii) 61p per loaf when sold in loaves of 2.75 lbs.,
(iv) 79½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 3.52 lbs.;

( c ) in the case of pan bread which is not packed in the manner specified in paragraph (b) of this Article—
(i) 22p per loaf when sold in loaves of 0.88 lb. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 400 grams),
(ii) 39p per loaf when sold in loaves of 1.76 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 800 grams) or loaves of pan bread joined together the total wright of which is 1.76 lbs.,
(iii) 57½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 2.75 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 1250 grams),
(iv) 75p per loaf when sold in loaves of 3.52 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 1600 grams) or loaves of pan bread joined together the total weight of which is 3.52 lbs.;

and

( d ) in the case of pan bread which is packed (whether sliced or not sliced) by the baker thereof in the manner specified in paragraph (b) of this Article—
(i) 23½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 0.88 lb.,
(ii) 33½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 1.32 lbs. (to which weight the equivalent in the metric system is 600 grams),
(iii) 40½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 1.76 lbs. (800 grams),
(iv) 59½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 2.75 lbs.,
(v) 77½p per loaf when sold in loaves of 3.52 lbs. (1,600 grams).

(2) For the purposes of this Article, a loaf shall be deemed to be of a particular weight specified in this Article if its appearance is such that it is reasonable to infer from it that the loaf was of approximately that weight at the time it was baked.

5. (1) Batch bread and pan bread shall, when sold by retail, be sold only in loaves of 0.88 lb. or 1.76 lbs. or 2.75 lbs. or 3.52 lbs. and in addition to the above wrapped pan bread may also be sold in loaves of 1.32lbs.

(2) A person shall not sell by wholesale batch bread or pan bread of such a wright that when it is sold by retail it is not of a weight specified in paragraph (1) of this Article.

(3) In any proceedings in respect of a contravention of this Article it shall, subject to paragraph (4) of this Article, be a defence for the person charged to prove—

( a ) that the offence was due to the act or default of another person, and

( b ) that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of such an offence by himself or any other person under his control.

(4) If in any case the defence provided by paragraph (3) of this Article involves the allegation that the commission of the offence was due to the act or default of another person, the person charged shall not, without leave of the court, be entitled to rely on that defence unless, not less than 7 days before the hearing, he has served on the prosecutor a notice in writing giving such information identifying or assisting in the identification of that other person as was then in his possession.

6. This Order does not apply in relation to—

( a ) any loaf of bread (other than batch bread or pan bread) of 0.66 lb. (to which the equivalent in the metric system is 300 grams) or less, or

( b ) pan bread of any of the following brands:

(i) Hovis,
(ii) Procea,
(iii) Bermaline,
(iv) Hi-Vi,
(v) Maltana,
(iv) Dr. Vogel's Swiss Health Bread,
(vii) Thoma,
(viii) Abermalt,
(ix) Slimcea,
(x) Veda,
(xi) Tritamyl,
(xii) Nimble.

7. The Maximum Prices (Bread) (No. 3) Order, 1981 (S.I. No. 284 of 1981) is hereby revoked.

GIVEN under the Official Seal of the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism

this 13th day of January, 1982.

S. MAC LUGHADHA.

A person authorised by the Minister for Trade, Commerce and

Tourism to authenticate the Official Seal of the Minister.

EXPLANATORY NOTE.

This Order fixes the maximum prices and the weights at which batch bread and pan bread, as defined in the Order, may be sold by retail. The Order also provides that it shall be an offence to sell by wholesale batch bread or pan bread which when sold by retail

Everyone please note
1) This is legislation passed by the UK Government under the Prices Act
2) There is no mention of this piece of legislation implementing any European directive, therefore it must have been purely at Westminster's instigation.
3) Doesn't this contradict Tony's usual "EC = Bad / Westminster = Good" position?

Sorry Tony.

I apologise.

It was bugging me that I didn't recognise either of the Acts that the regulations were made under and that I don't recall the UK having had price controls on bread in the last 50 years - so I checked it out.

Aren't Eire's regulations very similar in style to UK ones though?

But why bring in examples of laws in a foreign country?

<<
Martin

Was that you or is someone being naughty?
>>

Whoever masqueraded as me made a few faux pas - all EU directives have a number of the type YY/NNNN where "YY" is the last two digits of the year in which the directive was made and "NNNN" is the sequence number of the directive. (The UK follows a similar procedure for Statutory Instruments - for example the TSRGD 2002 is recorded as SI 2002/3113 (is the 3113rd statutory instrument made in 2002).

Martin - inadvertantly (to you, I believe) your post is actually funnier than the original masquarade!

You make me crack up sometimes, and to that I humbly thank you.

re (Martin): "Whoever masqueraded as me made a few faux pas..."

REPLY: The words 'faux pas' are now forbidden under the British Websites (Use of English) Language Regulations.

The only accepted language on British websites is the English system, known internationally as the 'ES' system. There are several approved words in the ES system for 'faux pas'; they include: mistake, error, blunder...

Tony Bennet schreiben

<<
REPLY: The words 'faux pas' are now forbidden under the British Websites (Use of English) Language Regulations.
>>

Geben mir bitte der Hinwies

re (martin): "Tony Bennett schreiben: REPLY: The words 'faux pas' are now forbidden under the British Websites (Use of English) Language Regulations.

Geben mir bitte der Hinwies"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANTWORT: Martin, leider haben Sie 'Hinwies' misgeschrieben. Das Wort ist: 'Hinweis', oder noch besser, 'Zeichen'. Sie haben auch 'schreiben' misgeschrieben, eigentlich ist es: 'Tony Bennett *schreibt* (oder 'hat gescrieben').

Das Zeichen fuer 'mistake' (oder Hinweis)?

Selbstverstaendlich, 'm' ist fuer 'mistake' (reminds everyone of 'm' for metre)

OK Tony, my German is not perfect, but I am probably better at German than most people in Britain are in their second langauge (BTW German is my fourth langauge).

<<
UKIP? What have UKIP got to do with anything?
>>

Can't be that naive surely.

Explain it to me Stan, I will be waiting.......