Great news!

This report, in today's 'Daily Telegraph', which will see millions of pounds spent on maintaining a fantastic array of historic distance signs across the ength and breadth of Britain in Imperial, sounds the death-knell for UKMA-inspired plans to waste £1 billion of the country's precious money on the wholly unnecessary conversion of a million-plus road signs to metric.

Revival of all these road signs in Imperial, some of them going back to 1669, hardly advances the cause of metric road signs, does it?

[Psssst! Don't tell the European Union about this...]

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Campaign in rural areas points the way to traditional signposting
By Charles Clover, Environment Editor (Filed: 02/08/2005)

Traditional signposts, or fingerposts, should be maintained and reintroduced because they are a key part of the identity of rural areas, the Government and English Heritage say in a report today.

A campaign to stiffen local authorities' resolve to maintain wood and cast-iron fingerposts is contained in a Department of Transport leaflet, Traditional Direction Signs, to be sent to councils and highway agencies.

Philip Davies of English Heritage said: "Traditional direction signs are an integral part of the character of the English countryside and suburbs. They enrich the countryside wherever they are found. Many still survive, but are in urgent need of repair and restoration".

No one knows exactly how many traditional signposts exist, though the oldest fingerpost, from the Cotswolds, dates from 1669. They were widely used by the 1740s when turnpike trusts were encouraged to mark every mile of road and in 1766 this became compulsory to help stagecoach and mail services to keep to timetables.

Early 20th century signs were erected initially by the AA and RAC but, after 1903, the responsibility passed to local authorities.

Although based on a common model, local authorities have considerable discretion over design, which led to a rich variety of styles. Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall had red posts with white lettering, others had finials in the form of discs marked with county names and grid references.

Many were removed after a new standard national style was launched in the 1960s, but pre-1964 signs remain legal. The main threat came from councils' failure to maintain them. It was not until 1964, however, that it was made legal to install new fingerposts.

English Heritage, the Government's conservation advisers, is calling for fingerposts to be regularly maintained as part of councils' maintenance budgets in local transport plans. Funding for repairing or reintroducing them - as part of village design statements, parish plans and quiet lanes - exists under the Local Heritage Initiative, a scheme funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund and the Nationwide Building Society.

English Heritage today publishes eight regional manuals on removing superfluous traffic signs, bollards, poles and other visual clutter. The manuals even advise on the least obtrusive way to place CCTV and recycling bins.

The campaign favours the Dutch "woonerf" tradition of street design that assumes traffic and social activities share the same space. This combines design and behavioural psychology to raise driver awareness, reduce traffic speeds and improve safety.

I wouldn't get too exited. The concern is about the sign themselves not what's on them.

In any case they will consititute a tiny proportion of road signs around the country in villages and old roads that longer carry much traffic.

The question about modern metric indications will remain A separate issue.

Tony
Would it not be an idea to contact English Heritage, reminding them of the legal requirement to use yds/miles, as well as the heritage arguments?

re (BWMA): "Tony - Would it not be an idea to contact English Heritage, reminding them of the legal requirement to use yds/miles, as well as the heritage arguments?"

REPLY: Yes, I think we should first of all congratulate them and then add a reminder about the Traffic Signs Regulations. An illegal metric English Heritage sign at Rievaulx Abbey, North Yorkshire, is already on the ARM 'hit list'.

I also think it would be now be opportune to remind the Department of Transport of all the powerful arguments for leaving Imperial road signs as they are.

Finally, these boards could not really function so well without Stimpy's light touches of humour and his debating skills, don't delete him so often. Pleeeeeeze!

You had me worried for a minute there Tony!

But as Stan says, its about the style of signs, not the measurements on them..

BTW, I am strongly in favour of restoring these traditional style signs as they have much more character than the new-style ones.

Blimey - I have a fan ;-)
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I heard this "sign story" on Radio 1 on Monday.
As I understand it, the current signs are to be maintained or restored. This process would mean that it would be restored to being as they were originally.

To believe otherwise would to believe that the best way of restoring a 16th century castle would be to install double glazing and 80's style stone clading.

Hopefully some common sense is used when restoring the signs, and they think "long-term" when considering the measurements to use on them.

How is the 80's style stone clading on your Celtic 15th century gothic manor coming along, Andy?

Did you choose bright orange in the end?

I don't really go along with that analogy Steve.

We are not talking about something that affects the look or style of the signs. We are talking about the letters "km" instead of "miles"

The fact that the article doesn't even mention units of measurement shows how little the issue registers with people.

That's because it's assumed! A mile post is a mile post - like black is black.

<<< That's because it's assumed >>>

By Telegraph readers maybe.. but if the government is serious about restoring old signs, logically they will look further ahead than the next decade or two. Logically, any large scale changes to signs will inevitably involve considering whether the units are appropriate, not just for now, but for several decades down the line.

so they'll take historic signs and milestones and they'll carve or chip km onto them?

Pull the other one - it dispenses milk!

Steve, if you read the article properly it talks about not only restoring old signs, but also about REINTRODUCING the old-style signs in areas with the bland new ones.

Many local councils have already been deciding that new signs should be in metric, so what makes you think they wouldn't come to the same conclusion?

Hopefully they will make sure the legislation is adjusted first, though!

<<Many local councils have already been deciding that new signs should be in metric>>

I don't think it was council's fault - it will have been due to a mix up at the contractor level.

There is an interesting contrast between the US and the UK.

In the UK, it is obvious that many local councils would prefer to put up metric signage and the national government forbids it by an act of Parliament that requires Imperial signage. (and of course Tony's efforts to defeat those who put it up anyway.)

In the US, the national government would like the roads to go metric and has created totally parallel metric signage (as well as dual, except for speed which has to be either/or) in the MUTCD so the rules for metric signage are established. Due to balking by the states, a few influential Congressman have managed to pass a law by which Federal agencies can't force the States to use metric signage (or even construct highways in metric), so little is used.

The only common element is local and national government being firmly opposed to each other's preference, but the roles are reversed. Anubody have any insight as to why the difference?

<<<I don't think it was council's fault - it will have been due to a mix up at the contractor level.>>>

I know our councils can be inefficient, but they are not THAT bad! I can hardly imagine the contractor putting the units on the signs without checking first!

<<<In the UK, it is obvious that many local councils would prefer to put up metric signage and the national government forbids it by an act of Parliament that requires Imperial signage>>>

I think its more that they are simply anticipating the future change to metric signposting. They don't want to put up signs and then have to change them again in a few years time.

The national government wants metric signs as well - they just haven't had the courage to make the change yet.

Sorry to bring this up again, but can someone remind me please what the regulations are regarding units on footpath signs and the like? (i.e. non-road signs)

<<In the UK, it is obvious that many local councils would prefer to put up metric signage >>

No that's not the case.
The private contractors request signs in metric (accidentally) because the plans have to be in metric to comply with EU rules (erm directives, erm etc).

This happened a lot in the early days but tends not to happen now. I guess they caught on with the rules.

It's just a simple mistake in the (stupid) translation.

<<<No that's not the case.
The private contractors request signs in metric (accidentally) because the plans have to be in metric to comply with EU rules (erm directives, erm etc).

This happened a lot in the early days but tends not to happen now. I guess they caught on with the rules.

It's just a simple mistake in the (stupid) translation.>>>

Do you really believe that if it wasn't for the EU rules contractors would work in imperial?!

I've worked on building sites with surveyors etc. All the equipment works in metric, its easier to make plans in metric. Believe me its nothing to do with rules!

The entire process is metric. The conversion to imperial at the end is to comply with the rules.

Regarding the differences between the US and UK, I think there is one very important distinction that has to be made. In the US, local authorities erect very few signs with distances on them. Most roads do not have distances listed. The only place you will see distances is on freeways, which are maintained by the states rather than the cities. In contrast, local authorities in the UK are responsible for a large number of signs showing distances, for pedestrians as well as vehicles.

US States know that if they are forced to convert signs on the interstates to metric, it will be a big cost burden, which is why they oppose it. In the UK, the mix of metres for local footpath signs and miles on the highways would not cause any problems. From what I know, no local authority has attempted to erect an illegal kilometre sign instead of one showing miles, because this would be a safety problem.

Bud fyi - I've never seen a metric footpath sign (or bike sign).

Andy - I'm talking about the stage in the creation of roads where the "human side" comes in, ie the planning of erecting signs and the design thereof. What is the point in doing that bit in metric if the signs are to be in imperial?

Answer: 'Rules'! Martin can tell you more.

All: FYI Danny boy has lifted this thread and posted it on the USMA forums.

However it only got one "bite".

Mind you, that's a lot more than he seems to be getting over here!

:-D

<<<From what I know, no local authority has attempted to erect an illegal kilometre sign>>>

Local authorities are only responsible for footpath signs and the like, but some have erected distance signs in kilometres on footpaths/cycle paths etc

These are the ones targeted by Tony and his boys. I am still unsure as to the legaliy of metric on such signs. Could someone please tell me again?

<<<Bud fyi - I've never seen a metric footpath sign (or bike sign).>>>

I've seen quite a lot actually - but I won't be revealing their whereabouts for obvious reasons ;-)

<<<Andy - I'm talking about the stage in the creation of roads where the "human side" comes in, ie the planning of erecting signs and the design thereof. What is the point in doing that bit in metric if the signs are to be in imperial?>>>

It is not easy to plan and design things using imperial these days. Maybe the state should adjust the road-sign rules to match the units used when the "human side" comes in. ;-)

<<I've seen quite a lot actually >>

You must live in an area of Britain that I've never been too.

I've seen loads of bike/walk signs none of which are metric.

And I'm a real walker.

No editing that last word, y'hear?

<<<You must live in an area of Britain that I've never been too.>>>

I sometimes wonder...

No, seriously I can't think of any where I live, but in a couple of south coast towns all the tourist footpath signs along the seafront etc were in metric.

I think Tony's been at 'em since though.

I haven't been to the south cost in a while.
I've been to the south coast of Wales though and they have yds/llath

Did anyone mention 6-nations grand slam?

<<<Did anyone mention 6-nations grand slam?>>>

No. Even with all the talk of "metres" I've never been a fan of rugby

I expect a lot of English people to 'start saying' that!

:-D

<<<I expect a lot of English people to 'start saying' that!>>>

we are still world champions ;-)

I'll always remember watching that game. I was in bloody Wales!!

I was in England!

You might be world champs but your not #1 in the world ranking.

(Mind you, neither is Wales)

<<re (BWMA): "Tony - Would it not be an idea to contact English Heritage, reminding them of the legal requirement to use yds/miles, as well as the heritage arguments?"

REPLY: Yes, I think we should first of all congratulate them and then add a reminder about the Traffic Signs Regulations. An illegal metric English Heritage sign at Rievaulx Abbey, North Yorkshire, is already on the ARM 'hit list'.>>

If you're going to insist on compliance with the TSRGD then you should take account of the fact that old historic signs are not legal as they wont meet modern requirements in terms of design. You can't hide behind the grandfather rule (if it exists) either because they are proposing to restore/resurrect them.

Not that I expect you to do this.

I'm sure you'll just carry on in your usual hypocritical style and pretend everything is legal so long as it has "yds/miles" on it.

re (Stan): "If you're going to insist on compliance with the TSRGD then you should take account of the fact that old historic signs are not legal as they won't meet modern requirements in terms of design"

REPLY: You wouldn't want anyone destroying our heritage now, would you? Especially now that our democratically-elected government (cough) says these signs should be preserved

An interesting remark.

You probably think that I have no respect for heritage or relics of the past because I am (in your words) a metric zealot.

Well you'd be wrong. I have no worries at all about this development. I'd be quote happy to see some nice interesting old signs here and there (probably on private land anyway). Nor am I concerned whether or not they comply with regulations. I'm not the one being a vigilante one minute and then a rebel law breaker the next.

Still I won't spoil things for you. I'll let you enjoy this crumb of comfort while it lasts.

<<<You probably think that I have no respect for heritage or relics of the past because I am (in your words) a metric zealot.>>>

Surely you know Tony well enough by now, Stan?

Us pro-metrics are striving to abolish all trace of english culture in favour of a european standard, as dictated by our masters in Brussels.

;-)

I wouldn't bother trying to convince him otherwise.