Since a single mention of inches makes a country Imperial, I assume this makes the US metric. :-)

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/10/16/news/wyoming/4096b2efd97105708725709b00764310.txt
<<LARAMIE -- It's not exactly the stuff of an Indiana Jones movie, but an archaeological dig here is capturing intrigue.

Sixth- and seventh-graders from the University of Wyoming Lab School, a public middle school in the Albany County School District, are excavating what they believe to be an old kitchen at the Wyoming Territorial Prison.

On Thursday, students hauled out their trowels, buckets and clipboards to gently scrape layers of dirt from what might have been foundation walls of the defunct building, professionally documenting their discoveries as they went.

"We're trying to figure out what was in there," said seventh-grader Cordelia Zars.

In just two weeks, social studies classes from the school have sunk several centimeters below the surface, uncovering whole bricks, fragments of charcoal and even some old fish bones.
. . . .
Her students this year will catalog all the historical evidence they find and write a formal report on their discoveries. Then, she said, she hopes to continue excavating with future classes in the coming years. Once the kitchen area is finished, Lindmier said he hopes students will be able to find the old carpentry and blacksmith shops that also used to be on the grounds.

"They're giving something back in community involvement," Webb said. "They're generating real data and conducting this dig as professionals."

At the same time, she added, they're also meeting many state educational standards, including the historical aspects of their social studies curriculum, hands-on use of the metric system for math, technical writing for English and soil and vegetation studies for science.
. . .
>>

Wyoming Students Learn Metric
October 16 2005 at 2:00 PM JohnS-MI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the same time, she added, they're also meeting many state educational standards, including the historical aspects of their social studies curriculum, hands-on use of the metric system for math, technical writing for English and soil and vegetation studies for science.


metre
Any effort helps, but she uses an unfortunate phrase by stating >>>hands on metric>>> for purely mathematical reasons.

<<Any effort helps, but she uses an unfortunate phrase by stating >>>hands on metric>>> for purely mathematical reasons.
>>

I'm hoping it means directly measuring and computing in metric, not focusing on Customary <--> SI conversion problems.

Somewher, they could teach some "math history" in which students learn "one way conversion" from historical references to Imperial and Customary units into SI so they understand the material. Just a dream -- but the way to approach it.

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric October 17 2005, 4:29 PM

JS
Somewhere, they could teach some "math history" in which students learn "one way conversion" from historical references to Imperial and Customary units into SI so they understand the material. Just a dream -- but the way to approach it.

metre
Yes indeed, where would we be without dreams?

<<
Somewher, they could teach some "math history" in which students learn "one way conversion" from historical references to Imperial and Customary units into SI so they understand the material. Just a dream -- but the way to approach it.
>>

I think students would be quite confused if they saw units on the roads and in stores and all around them and then the teacher told them that those are "historical" units, and taught how to convert them to "new" units that they don't see anywhere. Furthermore, they will learn a lot more if they are taught to convert in both directions.
But of course, that doesn't matter to you, what matters is sending the impression that one set of units is "newer" and "better".

<<I think students would be quite confused if they saw units on the roads and in stores and all around them and then the teacher told them that those are "historical" units, and taught how to convert them to "new" units that they don't see anywhere. Furthermore, they will learn a lot more if they are taught to convert in both directions.
But of course, that doesn't matter to you, what matters is sending the impression that one set of units is "newer" and "better". >>



Right now, the roads would be a problem.

In the stores, FPLA generally requires dual labelling so the SI units would be there. If permissive metric only ever gets passed, maybe only the SI will be there.

I will say two of my kids basically got such an education in the late 70's (in fact I had to teach them some Customary to function, even though I regretted it). By the time my youngest went to school, they had gone back to teaching "units stew," a mixed mess of Customary and SI, mostly focused on converting between, while understanding neither. (My youngest is 26, so that is likely what you got in school too)

<<
Right now, the roads would be a problem.
>>
We should modify the educational curriculum to match the real world, not vice versa. If what is taught in school doesn't match the signs on the roads, then the problem is the curriculum, not the roads.


<<
In the stores, FPLA generally requires dual labelling so the SI units would be there. If permissive metric only ever gets passed, maybe only the SI will be there.
>>
But as of now, the majority of products have rounded Customary units with SI in parenthesis, and the SI generally gets ignored. Try telling the kids that the more prominent and rounded units are "historical".


<<
I will say two of my kids basically got such an education in the late 70's (in fact I had to teach them some Customary to function, even though I regretted it). By the time my youngest went to school, they had gone back to teaching "units stew," a mixed mess of Customary and SI, mostly focused on converting between, while understanding neither. (My youngest is 26, so that is likely what you got in school too)
>>
I did not get much formal measurement education in school. We were taught to convert units, which is necessary even if only one system is taught, but we were never explicitly told "this is a pound" or "this is a litre". Understanding comes from experience, not from teaching.

<<
Understanding comes from experience, not from teaching.
>>

Well said Bud - the South African and Australian Governments realised this when they started their metrication programs and they banned the sale of measuring devices calibrtated in non-metic units. The result - those countries have coherent systems of mesaurement today. The UK and US did the opposite and have a mess.

If the South African and Australian Governments could ban the sale of measurement devices that show units they object to, then what is to stop them from banning the sale of books containing information they object to? The government has no business regulating what information people see, and they definitely should not be preventing their people from seeing information in order to manipulate their preferences. In this case, there was no evidence that they had any intention other than converting the nation to metric, but who decides what their intentions are? I don't know about the UK, but in the US, a law prohibiting the sale of inch rulers or pound scales would probably be struck down pretty fast.

I'm with bud on this - experience based upon the government banning what you have been allowed to use sounds a bit fascistic to me and will only make those in the UK or US more resistant to changing to metric if they heard obscene stories like that.

How can you promote metric by confiscating things that people want to use in their personal capacities?

<<
How can you promote metric by confiscating things that people want to use in their personal capacities?
>>

There was no confiscation - just that new supplies dried up. It was either that, or a mechanism would have to be set up to ensure that no non-metric measruing devices found their way into areas where only metric was permitted.

In the UK we have the ridiculous situation where a all tape measures that are used on a building site are in dual units - building plans have been in metric units for the last 25 years, yet it is almost impossible to buy a metric-only tape measure. Moreover, the dual-unit tapes have imperial on top and metric below making them "imperial-friendly" - no bl***dy good on an all-metric building site. That is what the South Africans and Australians were stopping.

There is a reason for this martin.

Although plans, material etc is predominantly metric the actual craftsmenship of cutting, tailoring, adjusting etc need not be - hence why a lot of tasks are carried out in imperial on mainly metric items.

See it in the sam way as buying a kilo of beef and then carrying out a recipe that asks for 4 ounces of beef to be used.

But back on topic - I don't see how banning extra words on a meauring device is meant to appeal to people or make them warm to metric.

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric October 21 2005, 12:00 PM


.
Martin
In the UK we have the ridiculous situation where a all tape measures that are used on a building site are in dual units - building plans have been in metric units for the last 25 years, yet it is almost impossible to buy a metric-only tape measure. Moreover, the dual-unit tapes have imperial on top and metric below making them "imperial-friendly" - no bl***dy good on an all-metric building site. That is what the South Africans and Australians were stopping.

metre
Quite right, dual tapes are a pain in the neck. It makes for a lot of mistakes reading plans in metric then measuring the work to be carried out with a cluttered tape in inches. People doing it this way are gluttons for punishment. There are no advantages in having 2 different measurement
systems, only drawbacks.

How does that work?

Are you saying that people will mistake an inch with a cm?

Or do people get confused if they see more than one set of words on things (a bit like practically everything you buy, despite the measurement debate).

I don't understand your frustration.

'Martin
In the UK we have the ridiculous situation where a all tape measures that are used on a building site are in dual units - building plans have been in metric units for the last 25 years, yet it is almost impossible to buy a metric-only tape measure. Moreover, the dual-unit tapes have imperial on top and metric below making them "imperial-friendly" - no bl***dy good on an all-metric building site. That is what the South Africans and Australians were stopping.

metre
Quite right, dual tapes are a pain in the neck. It makes for a lot of mistakes reading plans in metric then measuring the work to be carried out with a cluttered tape in inches. People doing it this way are gluttons for punishment. There are no advantages in having 2 different measurement
systems, only drawbacks."


I'm sure the workers have adapted and ignore the inches on the tape and have learned to make the bottom part of the tape the more user friendly side. Those who may have a hard time making the metric side friendly, will just buy a metric only tape from a catalog or on a trip outside the country. I purchased all my metric-only tapes and tools when I would travel outside the US. I gave my business and money to a foreign store who sold me what I wanted and not to the local store who wouldn't.

If it were really true that there was such a demand for metric-only tapes in the UK/US, then local stores would have started selling them by now. You don't need the government to force stores to sell what the people want to buy. The very fact that stores aren't selling them proves that there is no demand for them.

Actually, Bud, they are hard to find in stores, but you can buy from online stores or eBay.

The search problem is to exclude enough terms that dual English/metric is excluded, as there are 10x or 100x more links for dual. But there are enough for pure metric.
+metric +tape +measure -english -inch -foot -standard -sae -standard -fractional eliminates most of the dual.

DJ
I'm sure the workers have adapted and ignore the inches on the tape and have learned to make the bottom part of the tape the more user friendly side.

metre
I am not so sure that this is correct.It is virtually impossible to wean yourself of inches with an inch habituated brain. Worse still if they are on top of the tape. Apparently carpenters in Australia had to go cold turkey to make that transition and use metric only tapes. That must have saved them a heck of a lot of good timer that would have been wasted otherwise.
Compare a single system tape with a double one and you will never buy the latter. Only novices do so.
.

"metre
I am not so sure that this is correct.It is virtually impossible to wean yourself of inches with an inch habituated brain. Worse still if they are on top of the tape. Apparently carpenters in Australia had to go cold turkey to make that transition and use metric only tapes. That must have saved them a heck of a lot of good timer that would have been wasted otherwise.

Compare a single system tape with a double one and you will never buy the latter. Only novices do so."


Having an inch brain doesn't do much good if you are going to measure a length based on a drawing. If the drawings shows a dimension of 2.4 m, all the inches thinking in the world or the inches on the top of the scale isn't going to help you when you need to mark that dimension. You unwind the tape, turn it to whatever position is comfortable, measure the 2.4 m and you are done. When you are on the job, there is no time wasted to try and rationalize what that number might be in inches. Thus, the inches are ignored because they are not relevant to the job. The user gets use to the tape the way it is to get the job done.

Foreigners who come to the UK may still think in their natural language when they are alone. But the when conversing in English they think in English if they are to be able to flow properly. Those that don't speak slow and grasp for words. But once they learn they converse just as naturally in English just as if they spoke it all their life. Even if they do speak with an accent.

A single tape would be better, of course, but if it isn't there, you can easily ignore the inch units you aren't using.

The commercial pressures are such that it is very difficult for me to buy a metric-only tape if I wish to do so (except when I go aborad) - how is that freedom of choice.

<<
The commercial pressures are such that it is very difficult for me to buy a metric-only tape if I wish to do so (except when I go aborad) - how is that freedom of choice.
>>

There, you essentially just admitted that the vast majority of British people prefer dual to metric-only.

Besides, I don't understand why anyone would want a measure in only one system when a dual one is available for the same price. Extra information can be ignored, but missing information is a problem. Even if you are planning to never use one of the scales, it will do no harm sitting there, and you never know what you may need it for one day.

<<Besides, I don't understand why anyone would want a measure in only one system when a dual one is available for the same price. Extra information can be ignored, but missing information is a problem. Even if you are planning to never use one of the scales, it will do no harm sitting there, and you never know what you may need it for one day.>>

Bud,
I don't know how much carpentry you do. For measuring, there is not much difference. For marking up a piece, it is much more convenient if the preferred measurement is on the top of the tape blade. Dual is almost always metric over, inches under, and poorly suited for marking metric dimensions on a piece.

So, to some extent, dual is a nuisance. If they offered either metric or inches, your choice, on top, I guess dual would be OK. They even make left handed tape measures (dimensions read right to left) for convenience of left handers. Why can't they metric a metric-only or metric-iver tape for the US market?

Also, I have yet to see one highlight metric dimension stud spacing (400 mm centers) or other construction layout features that are highlighted on inch scale. So they aren't really equal are they, just an inconvenient afterthought. (I have to admit, 400 mm centers are easier to do in my head than 16 inch centers).

"There, you essentially just admitted that the vast majority of British people prefer dual to metric-only."

No, it just means the dual tapes are forced on to people by the marketers. The only way to prove if you are right is to offer both a metric only or a dual metric-inch and then see which people buy.

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric October 23 2005, 4:02 AM

Anon
No, it just means the dual tapes are forced on to people by the marketers. The only way to prove if you are right is to offer both a metric only or a dual metric-inch and then see which people buy.

metre
As much as I would like to agree with you, I can't. Bud is right, the market caters for products that sell. If enough people would ask for metric only tapes they would be readily available. The problem with dual tapes is that metric inclined people are continuously distracted by familiar inches. The irony is, they only realise that after buying these useless tapes.

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric October 23 2005, 12:18 AM


<<
The commercial pressures are such that it is very difficult for me to buy a metric-only tape if I wish to do so (except when I go aborad) - how is that freedom of choice.
>>
Bud
There, you essentially just admitted that the vast majority of British people prefer dual to metric-only.

metre
He does not. If metric inclined people would know what a misery dual tapes are, there
would be quite a few Brits out there asking for metric only tapes.


Bud
Besides, I don't understand why anyone would want a measure in only one system when a dual one is available for the same price. Extra information can be ignored, but missing information is a problem. Even if you are planning to never use one of the scales, it will do no harm sitting there, and you never know what you may need it for one day.

metre
You obviously do not use meassuring tapes frequently. No carpenter worth his salt will use a dual tape. Why should he if all plans are in metric? As I said dual tapes are a pain in the eye and a waste of money.

<<
They even make left handed tape measures (dimensions read right to left) for convenience of left handers.
>>

They are also hard to come by unless you go to a specialist supplier such as http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/acatalog/

<<Dual is almost always metric over, inches under, and poorly suited for marking metric dimensions on a piece.>>

Sorry, but I reversed that, and probably confused everyone. Inches are usually on the top edge of the blade, inconvenient for marking metric jobs.

<<The problem with dual tapes is that metric inclined people are continuously distracted by familiar inches. >>

I don't really agree. I am not distracted by the inches, but they are in the way. If the metric were on the top edge of the blade, I wouldn't care if it were dual. When the metric is on the bottom of dual tapes, it is worth a few $$ to buy a metric-only.

Perhaps the inches distract BWMA members and others who prefer inches; their mere presence shouldn't bother those who prefer metric.

About a year ago I was writing the software for a piece of laboratory equipment that involved a moving trolley. The trolley position was given in metric units and I wanted to attache a tape to the side of the track to double-check the software. I searched through the catalogues that my client had (reputable engineering companies), but I could not find a metric-only tape that could be attached. Since an imperial tape was worse than useless, I dispensed with this additioal check.

Martin,

Check here for availability of metric only tape measures in the UK:

http://www.metric.org.uk/Practical/homediy/metrictapes.htm

Danial:
"I purchased all my metric-only tapes and tools when I would travel outside the US. I gave my business and money to a foreign store who sold me what I wanted and not to the local store who wouldn't"

That's a hell of an expensive way to buy a measuring tape just so that you can't do anything with it when you return to the USA. [I thought you didn't travel, anyway?]


metre:
"Compare a single system tape with a double one and you will never buy the latter. Only novices do so."


Where did you get that from?


Martin:
"The commercial pressures are such that it is very difficult for me to buy a metric-only tape if I wish to do so (except when I go aborad) - how is that freedom of choice"

Are you saying that the best freedom of choice available is to limit that choice?


Danial:
"No, it just means the dual tapes are forced on to people by the marketers. The only way to prove if you are right is to offer both a metric only or a dual metric-inch and then see which people buy.

Dual with imperial over metric is popular because it is popular. Believe it or not you can get metric-only in the stores - it's just not that popular to "normal folk".

metre:
"He does not. If metric inclined people would know what a misery dual tapes are, there
would be quite a few Brits out there asking for metric only tapes."

Are you saying that the majority of Brits are ignorant/stupid?


John to metre: "I don't really agree. I am not distracted by the inches, but they are in the way."

I think that metre is coming at this from a point of view of someone "brought up" on imperial. I think his age has already been deduced and perhaps he does not realise that those under, say, 45 will be fully conversant in both metric and imperial. In fact they probably know more about metric (And how metric works) than imperial , but just have a preference for imperial in the practical sense. This is only a deduction though, metre will have to back this up.

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric October 23 2005, 6:24 PM
JS
I don't really agree. I am not distracted by the inches, but they are in the way. If the metric were on the top edge of the blade, I wouldn't care if it were dual. When the metric is on the bottom of dual tapes, it is worth a few $$ to buy a metric-only.

metre
All tapes I have seen show inches on top. Most likely produced in Asia to assumed preferences in English speaking countries. If you have used a single unit tape you will never bother with a dual one. There is no comparison with the clarity of a single unit tape. The best ones I have seen so far are German made.
JS
Perhaps the inches distract BWMA members and others who prefer inches; their mere presence shouldn't bother those who prefer metric.

metre
I am normally not advising people to read imperialists opinion why inches are better. But I recommend to read Mr A. Marcel’s article “The trouble with metres”. Mr. Marcel is an Australian of English descent and tried to built his garden shed in metric units. Most interesting in the long story is that he never realised why he prefers inches. His article features in every defence of imperial measurements. It is possibly in the BWMA library, or on the net.

KB
Are you saying that the majority of Brits are ignorant/stupid?

metre
Not at all, just novives with little, or no knowledge, of single unit tapes.


John to metre:
"I don't really agree. I am not distracted by the inches, but they are in the way."

I think that metre is coming at this from a point of view of someone "brought up" on imperial. I think his age has already been deduced and perhaps he does not realise that those under, say, 45 will be fully conversant in both metric and imperial. In fact they probably know more about metric (And how metric works) than imperial , but just have a preference for imperial in the practical sense. This is only a deduction though, metre will have to back this up.

metre
Theoretically most younger Brits know metric units, but are far from being practically conversant with them. If they would be imperial would have disappeared long ago.

So we are in agreement then. Anyone under 45 has a pretty good knowledge of metric (possibly to a standard expected elsewhere in Europe) but equally, under 45's have a practical knowledge of imperial from the simple act of using it.

Thus if you buy a tape then the person using the tape is most likely to pick a scale that makes practical use and better ease of the job in hand - he or she could use inches or cm - in fact anyone who does not have a psychotic hatred for either could - in fact - use either.

Thus the best scenario would be to give that choice - leave it in the hands of the user - and recognise why dual unit tapes are more popular than non-dual unit of either "system".

I believe that in reality, "real" things happen and the confusion over how terrible having both metric and imperial on measuring tapes can be safely left in the confines of measurement-based websites where some people in fact do have a hatred for the words that, in a dictionary sense, represent a length of something.

And when I put it like that I find myself feeling sorry for those with such an irrational hatred or fear of letters-put-together.

kilo-bee = SteveH. Same style of posting.

erm.

What?

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric
KB October 24 2005, 3:44 PM
So we are in agreement then. Anyone under 45 has a pretty good knowledge of metric (possibly to a standard expected elsewhere in Europe) but equally, under 45's have a practical knowledge of imperial from the simple act of using it.. p

metre
Not in your dreams. To bring it back to basics, who needs 2 measurements systems? If you know one good reason let me know.

The average Brit has a pretty good knowledge of metric and imperial, whom are you kidding? Most are deficient in either. The majority would not know their height in centimetres, or down to fractions.
This is the curse of using 2 systems. That should answer all your queries.

"Not in your dreams."

So what you are saying is - I might have a perception that I (for example) believe this but in fact I am wrong and you have proof of this.


"To bring it back to basics, who needs 2 measurements systems? If you know one good reason let me know. "

How about practicality? Or convenience?
Have you not noticed that singles or multiples of a particular measure can be born from the one that's most convenient?
Of course the UK has a lot of imperial measured things and one's exposure to it is high - but so it is with metric.
You could buy a metre of cable and go home and run a foot of it through the wall. In fact this is the case in any country that has some exposure to both sets of measurements.
So the answer to 'who needs 2 systems' is: anyone who wants it.
It's not a case of whether you choose what others need simply because in that realm you have no right to choose what they need.


"The average Brit has a pretty good knowledge of metric and imperial, whom are you kidding? Most are deficient in either."

Actually no.
Those who need or want to know imperial or metric or both will have as much knowledge as they need.
For the vast majority, it would be accurate to say that they will now, by estimate, how long a foot or a metre is. If that particular person requires accuracy they will just find the answer on a measuring tape.

"The majority would not know their height in centimetres, or down to fractions."

That's because few really care. You are mixing measurment usage with measurement knowledge. I know that my car is 1.8L - I have no reason to know what that is in pints or gallons. It is not important to me. It's not lack of knowledge - that can be remedied easily by measuring whatever you are interested in and reading off the dial.


"This is the curse of using 2 systems. That should answer all your queries."

Unfortunately you cannot answer all my queries as you are not the holder of all answers, especially measurements - this can be a very individual thing. For you to claim to know the answer on behalf of everyone shows a moderate display of manie, or delusion. And to call it a curse (ie to liken it to an ancient, perhaps evil, spell being placed upon the recipient is overemotional at best and plain daft at worst.

Re: Wyoming Students Learn Metric October 25 2005, 1:37 PM


"Not in your dreams."

So what you are saying is - I might have a perception that I (for example) believe this but in fact I am wrong and you have proof of this.


"To bring it back to basics, who needs 2 measurements systems? If you know one good reason let me know. "

How about practicality? Or convenience?
Have you not noticed that singles or multiples of a particular measure can be born from the one that's most convenient?
Of course the UK has a lot of imperial measured things and one's exposure to it is high - but so it is with metric.
You could buy a metre of cable and go home and run a foot of it through the wall. In fact this is the case in any country that has some exposure to both sets of measurements.
So the answer to 'who needs 2 systems' is: anyone who wants it.
It's not a case of whether you choose what others need simply because in that realm you have no right to choose what they need.


metre
It is impossible to argue believes. Obviously you must believe what you say.In this case,I humbly admit to have lost the argument, happy now?

Not so much "happy" but "stunned"