Hello Everyone!

I can tell from some of the recent posts on this and my other forums, that some people actually understand (or at least are starting to) the process that is Jeet Kune Do, while others still do not have a clue! Everyone that trained with Bruce Lee holds valuable pieces to the puzzle. Bruce Lee was well known for bringing out the best in everyone that he worked with. He could look at a student and see what their strengths were, as well as their weaknesses. Everyone got something a bit different from Bruce Lee. This is why it is not possible to get everything from just one of Bruce Lee's original students. This is also why you cannot say that any one student is best to train with! They ALL have something unique to offer!

My goal has always been to learn as much as possible from each of the original Bruce Lee students so that I could hopefully have a very complete picture of what Bruce Lee taught. This makes it easy for me to share the knowledge with those who train with me! Unfortuantely, this also causes some problems, as there are slight differences in opinions as to what is most important about Bruce Lee's teachings!

The Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do issue is and example of this! Some feel that Wing Chun is not that important to the development process of the Jeet Kune Do practitioner, while experience has taught me that Wing Chun is the MOST IMPORTANT part of the equation when it comes to really getting what Bruce Lee actually taught! It forms the foundation for what we do, and an art without foundation structure is like a building of concrete and steel placed on a styrofoam foundation! IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!!!!

Now, don't misunderstand me here! I AM NOT saying that you have to go out and learn the entire Wing Chun system. I do feel that you should at least learn the things that Bruce Lee felt were important to the development of Jeet Kune Do. You will find a list of these things on my Hardcore Jeet Kune Do website under the Wing Chun category heading.

Oh, and as for money, this has absolutely nothing to do with me making money, but instead that I want to be sure my students are getting THE MOST from the money they are paying to learn from me! Knowing what I know now, if I did not share this with my students I would feel like I was ripping them off! I feel obligated to share EVERYTHING that I have learned from First Generation students, not just a partial, fragmented presentation of the material!

As I have already stated in another post on this forum, the process was Wing Chun Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu and then finally, Jeet Kune Do. To leave out any part of this journey is doing yourself a great dis-service, and limiting yourself severely. I refuse to become a part of that limitation! My students will learn AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE of what I have learned from all of Bruce Lee's students, not just a limited view of what I have learned from any one! THAT, my friends, is what HARDCORE JEET KUNE DO is all about!

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Kwoon (205) 274-9011

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"What is Jeet Kune Do (JKD)? Chinese martial art, definitely! It is a kind of Chinese martial art that does away with the distinction of branches, an art that rejects formality, an art that is liberated from tradition." __Bruce Lee

Right on Bros!!!!

It’s funny to say that someone will just reply and say that JKD is One Punch and kick you don’t need Wing Chun to have a good structure we have our JKD structure Which IS What? Focus mitts kicking and punching than what? We do hand traps and sensitivity drills and energy drills and they come from what? My point is that I am trying to make as Lamar saying that you have to follow step by step and do what Bruce did not just what he said ,you will have a much stronger foundations and will have a better theory on how to apply a correct punch and kick to it’s fullest, and not try to take any short cuts ,I can teach a student how to punch and kick in one class ,is he going to learn how to generate any power, without understanding what’s behind the punch or kick,? NO, but to teach the proper art and what’s behind the art that will take years., Funny to say that people think you make money from teaching JKD they are so blinded by their arrogance and lack of understanding to even think that can be done I am operating a JKD school, 5 DAYS A WEEK 5 classes a day, When I did my tax return after 7 years of operating I finally made $17.00 that’s right $17 dollars maybe this guy wants to share it!!! My wife told me that now you can take me out to McDonalds. It is the passion that drives us and the legacy of Sijo Bruce not the money, and It Is What It Is Jeet Kune Do as Developed by Bruce Lee............
Sifu George Hajnasr
Peace,Love,JKD
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SYSTEMS NOR METHODS!!!

From what I've been able to gather from reading most most of the post on this subject. Most JKD practitioners don't want to take the time to learn Wing Chun because Dan Inosato or Ted Wong don't teach it therefor it must not be important. If these people just took a look at where Sifu Dan and Sifu Wong came from they would see that both of them had to learn some Wing Chun to learn what Bruce Lee was teaching. So don't count Wing Chun out until you learn some and find out that it doesn't work for you than discard it, but they'll find that they have to have it if they want to have a good foundation to their JKD.

Depends what wingchun you use. Some is rubbish. Also if you include to much wingchun in jkd you have messed it up like putting to much water with orange juice.

John,In a sense you are right,The Wing Chun is only being used as a vehicle of understanding the students trapping skills.I mean that a person doesn't have to master Wing Chun to functional and understand JKD trapping,But the practitioner shouldn't pretend that Wing Chun doesn't exist in JKD either. Mike Sheng

It's interesting to note that Bruce told Ted to stop training at the Chinatown school because the training there was not beneficial to what he was learning in the private lessons. I'm sure it was all good material but it was different from what Bruce was teaching Ted in private.

Robert

Hi Robert!

Yes, I'm sure that is probably true, but that doesn't mean a whole lot (or anything at all) in the overall scheme of things! There have been times when I have felt like telling a student to stop training under one of my assistant instructors, and only train with me! Why, because everyone has their own teaching methods, and I have often seen a student that I felt could benefit more from training ONLY with me! I have several students like that still with me to this very day!

There have also been times when I felt that an assistant was being too aggressive with their approach to training an individual. This has caused a few people to stop training in the past before they could start to "get it" as we often say! Receiving one pak sao after another that nearly breaks your arm at the elbow joint, or getting punched in the face repeatedly before being adequately taught evasive/defensive skills is enough to cause many to NEVER come back! Oftentimes a newly appointed instructor is thinking more of showing what he can do rather than bringing out the best in a student, or more concerned with HIS workout than what the students are capable of! Sometimes this can be a HUGE mistake! Some people are better suited to a slower start, or maybe a less aggressive approach to training.

Keep in mind that I am not saying this was the case with Ted Wong, but just that I have personally seen these things happen many times over the years! Also, as previously stated, Bruce Lee was well known for using his students like guinea pigs, to help improve his personal skill level. Ted Wong was very close to Bruce Lee in size, therefore a perfect training partner for things involving mobility and distance awareness. In other words, a partner that he could teach to move almost as quickly as he could move himself! He may have felt that training at the Chinatown kwoon may alter the main focus that he wanted Ted to have! Although it is just my personal opinion, this is what I see when I have worked with Sifu Wong in the past!

The bottom line here, however, and the point I am trying to make, is the fact that Bruce Lee worked with all of his students in different ways. While the core approach and techniques were basically the same, the area of specialization varied according to the individual strengths and weaknesses of the students! I learned more about this by attending all of the Nucleus events than any other time in my twenty-eight years of Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training. They ALL have something to offer! Yes, some more than others, but still something worth having. Something special that they got from Bruce Lee himself! That, to me, is more than worth tapping into!

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Kwoon (205) 274-9011

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"What is Jeet Kune Do (JKD)? Chinese martial art, definitely! It is a kind of Chinese martial art that does away with the distinction of branches, an art that rejects formality, an art that is liberated from tradition." __Bruce Lee

I agree with you 100% Sifu Davis,That was one of the reasons why i wanted to meet various people who Bruce taught. I remember an article that was written by Sifu Hartsell,one of the things that he'd mentioned about Bruce was how he taught various of his people differently.Sometime according to what he was doing at a particular time and who was maybe best suited for what he had to offer,like with Sifu Hartsell,they would spend time on different types of grappling out of the trapping,trap and trip or lock or throw etc,would train Sifu Wong and the other on different things but they all came out equal in the end.I even felt that there was this big puzzle to put together and each one of Bruce's students did'nt have everything and they would sometime contradict each other.But i also notice at the old BLEF seminars they would still carry on and not argue about their differences.As the old saying goes (you put every great teacher in the room and that will agree on everything,if you put the students in the room,they will disagree on everything.)In this case our JKD elders agree to not disagree or at least in front of all of us.I also agree that Wing Chun is important in the study of JKD,(1) it teaches the student a basic stucture.(2)it give a student a basic summary or history why JKD became what it is and why the changes from the two arts.(3)90% of JKD Hand Trapping Drills came from Wing Chun and Jook Lum Praying Mantis to a lesser degree and From the Northern Mantis the low/high and high/low reference point trapping,Example the trapping drill where two guys cross arms from a low refer/point then one would pak sao/gua chuie or pak sao ping chuie or low hit come from the NPMantis.why that is because those particular drills have too much disengaging from the arms and they relied on a lot of speed in which Bruce so masterfully had that no one could catch him.those became his modication to his personal Jun Fan Wing Chun skills.In my Seven years of Wing Chun i never saw those particular drills except from Sifu Taky and Vunak where i learn those. Thank You sir Mike Sheng

I think the root of the issue here is how does each person see JKD? Do you see it as a puzzle with each OBLS have a small piece of it? Or do you see JKD divided into these nice neat little packages that represent the schools and the major private students? Or do you see it as process of evolution from Wing Chun to the highly refined approach that Bruce was teaching at the end?

If you see JKD as a puzzle then every piece is important. With out any of them the puzzle is incomplete.

IF you see JKD as a process of development, a scientific process to find what works best. Then you are going to see things in the JKD past which are useless. You may train them for the historical value but other than that you will see no real value in them.

Personally I see JKD divided into various schools of thought, each one being their own neat little package. Each a well rounded approach to fighting. But with each one falling in a different spot on the JKD evolution timeline.

I don't have time for everything... so I train as late in the timeline as I can. I have to focus on what I can master and what will suit me best in my personal development. I feel that I would be doing JKD and those that I train with a dis-service to water it down with a bunch of Wing Chun. That is not how they were taught. That is not how they are teaching me and that is not how I will teach it.

I couldn't have presented it any better than that! Good, no, AWESOME post!!

Hi Guys!

Yes Robert, that is a good post that you made, but that is still a "limited" viewpoint! And, as for you use of the term scientific, that would dictate an understanding of a process needed to reach a certain point! First, it is easy for you to make the statements that you make because you trained with me for many years, ingraining the things you needed into your neuromuscular reflex system. You are speaking as if these are things you have NEVER done, when the fact is that you trained in them more than enough for them to become a part of you! They are ALREADY THERE, whether you realize it or not! To say they are not would be a direct insult to me!

Don't come to my forum and insult me or my level of intelligence! If there is nothing here of interest to you, then why are you here? If you see things differently than me, fine! I am certainly not stupid by any means, and I KNOW what I am doing! Sure, there is "some" logic to what you claim to be doing, but that is "your" way of thinking, and "your" way of doing! Just as you have your ways, I have my ways! I am looking at a TOTAL picture of Bruce Lee's art ... from the center outward, not just a corner of the picture! Some may want to only train in a certain area of Bruce Lee's method, while others choose to further their knowledge and skills by researching everything they possibly can about this art! Why limit yourself to one planet, when there is a whole universe out there to gain from?

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Kwoon (205) 274-9011

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"What is Jeet Kune Do (JKD)? Chinese martial art, definitely! It is a kind of Chinese martial art that does away with the distinction of branches, an art that rejects formality, an art that is liberated from tradition." __Bruce Lee

I have not begun to insult your intelligence or call you stupid. If I have in some form or fashion then I am sorry!

I come to this forum because this is a group that I used to be associated with and I still have an interest in that groups development. I try to contribute my points of view and as best that I can not insult others!!! I do not get derogatory or directly put people down.

I did spend a lot of time learning the skills that you mentioned! And I appreciate you teaching me those skills. But much of the skills that you taught me I had to essentially un-learn. They are good skills, nothing wrong with them. They just got in the way of what I am doing now!

Why limit training? Maybe because we don’t have the time, money, energy. Maybe we don’t have access to the training. Not all of us are full time martial artist! Many of us have full time jobs and families and while JKD is very important to us it’s no where near the top of the list. We limit training to avoid being a “jack of all trades and master of none”. If a person doesn’t have the time to dedicate they will be lucky to be a “jack of all trades”. I have found that striving to master a given area or a few good techniques can open up the universe!!!

If you don’t want me posting here then I can quit!

Hello Robert!

When I told you a while back you were welcome here I meant it! I appreciate everyone's point of view, but it just seems a bit derogatory to come onto my forum and downtalk the things that I teach! I understand that everyone doesn't have as much time as I do, and that everyone is not a fulltime martial artist like I am, but I also understand that there are people out there who want the full spectrum of what is offered from Bruce Lee's fighting methods, not just one man's viewpoint (which I also respect, by the way)!

I actually do not have that many things that I do technique-wise! I am a very firm believer is "chisseling away the inessential elements of combat", but I am also a firm believer in having something to chissel from! each individual will find things that suit them best! I want to be prepared to give these things to that individual, and not just say, "Ah, you don't need that!" I may teach a student something that I don't care for that much myself, but it may work fantastically for them! If that happens just once in my teaching career, it was worth learning that technique just for that purpose!

Robert, you are welcome here! Just remember that yours is not the "only way", just as I realize everyone may not want to go through what I did to learn the things that work for me! We all have our own paths, and there is nothing wrong with that! Right?

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Kwoon (205) 274-9011

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"What is Jeet Kune Do (JKD)? Chinese martial art, definitely! It is a kind of Chinese martial art that does away with the distinction of branches, an art that rejects formality, an art that is liberated from tradition." __Bruce Lee

I see a seed, a seed only a few are capable of planting...and even less know how to feed, water and grow it.

Philosphical yes.

But the answer is found in hand to hand, eye to eye contact.

Why only learn part of an art? Learn all of it and then if you want to chunk that which you don't like or choose to learn some other art then that is ok. If one is going to study JKD or any other art then he/she needs to learn all of it's foundations. This would include some wing chung as Sifu Lamar teaches in his kwoon. As of last night we were taken through the JKD kicks. I am a very big guy and do not like to kick but I need to learn and try to "master" the kicks to at least have them in my muscle reflex and in the back of my mind just in case. If I took some people's views that have been posted then I would only learn the punches and the trapping cause these are what would suit me best for my size. But think about Kareem his long legs and heigth would make him a better kicker than puncher as he would tower above people and the longest and nearest weapon to the target would be his legs. I don't think that Bruce Lee only taught him how to kick as one can tell from the films. As I have said before you can't call kool-aid wine. Both might be grape but one is real and one is fake. If I wanted to learn kick boxing I would. I don't need nor want it mixed with JKD. I am not being taught all of wing chung just that which is the foundation of JKD. Look at it this way wing chung is the foundation, JunFan wing chung is the walls and JKD is the roof with all three you have a complete house. What one puts into learning these aspects, as Sifu Davis teaches, is the furniture. A good foundation, good walls and roof do not make a good home, house yes, home no. Why build a house if you are not going to live there? Yes I am paying Sifu Davis to teach me yet I have to choose to learn. If I choose to build a weak foundation, walls and roof by not learning correctly or not learning all of JKD, true hard core JKD, it is my fault. If I choose to add that which I don't need and therefore weaken my structure then that is my choice as well. I have had that which I don't need and am unlearning the bad habits to learn all of JKD. I am being taught from the foundation up. My "house" will take some time to build but you can bet that the foundation will be solid before a wall will be built.

Thanks for your time.

Kent

It is wing chun and not wing chung. I am not perfect but am striving each day to get there.

Kent