Hello everyone

Do you really think that BJJ is good for "real world" self defense? I know that BJJ has had a lot of success in the ring but the ring is a much different environment than the street. I know that people going to fight in a ring would not say there are fighting using self defense but rather fighting for competition.

I was on the Gracie Academy website and noticed how they had self defense programs for law enforcement and for flight attendants. No disrespect to the Gracies but it made me wonder how a group of martial artists whose main purpose in training is to fight in the ring could really teach techniques to help people that are in situations that are nothing like the way they train?

I just don't see the Gracies coming from a background that lets them effectively apply their techniques to flight attendants in a crowded plane with little room to work with or law enforcement where the last place they want to be is rolling around on the concrete ground with a suspect.

I wanted to hear people's opinions on this especially Sifu Lamar's

Thanks
Tom

Well, according the the rules of the forum, we are asked not to post messages about topics like this, but perhaps Sifu will make an exception in this case.

A wiser man than myself once said "To what level of imperfection are you willing to settle?"

You stated that you didn't see anything in the "Gracie backgound" that qualifies them for teaching Law Enforcement or Flight attendants. Well, what exactly is your background? Have you watched the t.v. show "Cops"? Have you noticed how many of the struggles that they have go to the ground? Also, police officers have to be able to utilize what is known as 'less than lethal' procedures. The idea is not that they WANT to grapple with a suspect, rather have the ability to recover or control once taken to the ground against their will. Who better to teach the LAPD that but the Gracies?

When it comes to flight attendants, they are teaching them close quarter strategy and techniques on how to escape pins. You also have to keep in mind that each airline is independant. So, for instance, Delta Airlines may contract the Gracies, while United may contract some other martial artists to teach them. I know that Tony Blauer has taught several airlines and he is MORE than qualified to teach the subject.

Bottom line, there are reasons to train and not train with any instructor or style. If you are fully confident that you will NEVER EVER be taken to the ground, then BJJ could be a large waste of your time if you don't want to learn a new art or compete.

However, if you want to learn how to control an opponent on the ground, or if you want to learn how to escape from very critical positions or holds, then you can learn a lot.

This is also based on the instructor. Some only focus on the 'sport' aspect, while others, like the Gracies, have self defense classes that work on standing and ground.

What you have to remember is, when it comes to a real fight, the ground is the last place anyone should try to end up. You have 100% of your options standing, plus you don't have to worry about multiple attackers as much when you are on your feet.

There is a difference between grappling for sport/aestetic reasons, and then groundfighting for self defense. My groundfighting is based on doing what I would do standing up, i.e. elbows, eye rakes, and every variety of strikes that I can while trying to get back to my feet.

If you already have a good understanding of how to fight, then adding 'fight friendly' techniques to your game should be easy and fun for you.

Bryan

I've read up on the history of the Gracies and they had many fights occur on the streets or beaches of Brazil. So, to say their background is sport-based, I believe is inaccurate.

I agree with everything Bryan said, definitely.

Also, Nox is correct. They fought a lot in the street. Check out the book "The Gracie Way" - a very excellent read about this wonderful martial art family. You'll have a better understanding "where they are coming from" after reading that, and be better able to judge for yourself.

Also consider the words of Miyamoto Musashi - Japan's greatest Samurai, undefeated after 60+ duels to the death (and also, coincidently, where Bruce Lee got much of his philosophy) - he said to test and try all styles so you have a better understanding of them for the purposes of not being suprised by new attacks, how to defeat them, and to add to your own abilities.

Anyway, I think BJJ certainly can be used for effective self defense, but I'd rather stay on my feet at all costs. That said, I'm glad I understand and train BJJ for that moment the crap hits the fan and I hit the ground with an attacker - at least I'll know how to dominate, escape, get back to my feet to bust a JKD cap in his arse. :)

It is not the style but the practitioner and the way they train. if you train for sport you will fight that way. In Hardcore JKD we train for the street where everything goes.

Also the training the person has had, the "practice" the person has had, and the length of time in the style/art the person has had all plays into this factor. I read somewhere that Rickson or Rorion Gracie (If I spelled the names wrong you still know who I am talking about) said that a black belt BJJ or JJ person quickly becomes a blue belt or even a purple belt in a real fight. That should tell us all something. We all need to train and then train some more.

I will say this I perfer the art of JKD to any style. The art bends to the person while the person bends to the style.

Kent

The quote was "Striking can turn any BJJ Black Belt into a white belt very quickly"

A BJJ Blue Belt is a very dangerous grappler...a BJJ Purple Belt is an even more dangerous grappler! And there is little difference from Brown to Black except in some of the competitions.

I prefer JKD as well, but I am not as good as you are and certainly not as good as Sifu Davis, therefore I have to learn whatever I can if I ever get taken to the ground.

The point is, yes, BJJ is an effective self defense system and I can sit here and list a ton of reasons why other than the fact that it has been proven time and time again in the UFC. Yes, the UFC is a sport, but it is a dangerous sport. If you can't fight inside a ring, you most likely can't fight outside of one either.

Now, take into account. With the popularity of the art and sport of BJJ, there are way more instructors concentrating solely on the tournaments opposed to the street aspects. But make NO mistake, the Gracies are ALL very dangerous. I wouldn't bet on too many JKD folks in a real fight against Royler, Relson, or Rickson!

This debate could probably go on forever... I think the experienced practioner of either art would probably win. Between two equally matched combatants, I'd say the JKD man would win (I am biased though) in a street fight. The BJJ mans best hope would be to catch the JKD man unaware and get him on the ground fast. The JKD man would know the ground is the BJJ man's game and would be looking for him to shoot, forcing the BJJ man to use some stand up.
I'm not putting BJJ down though. I'd like to take a survey class on it so I could learn would to look out for and counter. Police are trained in it to restrain people, something a JKD man wouldn't want to do, since ideally your opponent would be injured enough to stop fighting, or unconscious, or possibly dead in extreme cases. I would not want to go the the ground on the street even if I were a good grappler. Would you want to get that close to some crazy homeless guy (could happen in my neighborhood)? Some of them are quite nasty. Or how about some crazed nut who is bleeding profusely? You might choke your opponent out eventually, but not necessarily before they spit, bleed, or vomit on you, not to mention getting bit. And even if you are a skilled grappler, your effectiveness may be decreased if you are up against a much stronger/bigger person. And if you are in an urban setting watch out for your head so it doesn't get inadvertantly (or purposely) smashed into pavement, curbs, broken bottles ect. And look out for your opponents friends who may come up to kick you in the face while you are otherwise occupied!

Hi, everyone! Devil's advocate here.

"Between two equally matched combatants, I'd say the JKD man would win (I am biased though) in a street fight."

Eric,

Define equally matched. Same number of years? Same intensity of training? Same person, cloned and trained in the two different arts?

I guess it would hard to find two of different arts that are perfectly matched.
For the sake of argument, lets pretend we're two evil scientists working for a Bond super-villian. We would have unlimited money and resources to conduct our evil research: making the ultimate fighter. To do this we would make two clones from the DNA of a gifted athelete (not a martial artist though).
Since we're using movie logic and science, these clones wouldn't have to be born or grow up. Each would be generated in some sort of capsule like in the movie "The Fly", emerging out of the door with lots of eerie smoke, fully grown and completely under our control.
They would be seperated immeadiately, one going to the secret underground compound in the North Pole, the other going to the secret underground compound in the South Pole. Each would receive exactly the same high-tech nutrition and supplements. Both would receive the same weight training.
But one would be trained in JKD, the other in BJJ. For the next four years, both men would train in their respective art nearly every day. (They would get an off day here and there for political indoctrination). When we weren't working on new death rays or making mutated animals to kill Bond, we could carefully watch the progress of each man.
At the end of the four year period, both men would be brought to our secret compound deep beneath the equator, so our evil boss, Wong Fu, could watch the melee between these very equally matched fighters. They would battle each other to the death in a no-holds barred any thing goes fight. No referee.
So neither man has an advantage, they will fight in a huge chamber made out of circular rings: one ring would be pavement, one dirt, one gravel, one grass, one clay, one sand, one pebbles, one mud.
I think the JKD man would win. If he didn't, I'd zap the other guy with my newest death ray. Then I'd zap Wong fu as he sat in his wheel chair petting his cat. Then I'd zap YOU if you gave me any lip.;) Where's your BJJ now?

I generally agree with most of what Eric is saying about the dangers of BJJ in the streets.

I did want to comment on one particular though: "And even if you are a skilled grappler, your effectiveness may be decreased if you are up against a much stronger/bigger person."

Personally, if I were fighting a bigger and stronger person - I might decide to take it to the ground, especially if he has been able to take what I can dish out standing.

Strong and unskilled people rely on strength, BJJ uses that against them. If they too are a skilled grappler, then their strength will augment their grappling and then, yes, that is a dangerous thing.

So, I agree with the statement if they are a skilled grappler, and completely disagree if they are not. From personal experience, anyway.

I have a friend that is a 4th Degree Black Belt in Jujitsu and he told me he would not fight me without a knife! Whats that tell you? I told him to let me know when he was going to do that so I could bring my .45 Long Colt!
Lance :-)

Hey Lance,

When you say JuJitsu - are you talking Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or "Jujitsu" such as wally jay, small circle, Japanese stuff?

I'm guessing jujitsu since there are not a whole lot of 4th degree black belts running around in BJJ, very few actually.

There is a monsterous difference between BJJ and Jujitsu, especially between a 4th degree in jujitsu and a 4th degree in BJJ - many, many years more training for one. It takes the average person about 10 years to get to black belt in BJJ. Only a handful have gotten to 4th, and only after MANY years.

Also, since this is about BJJ, not Jujitsu - it isn't exactly relevent.

I hope that doesn't sound rude, I'm just trying to clarify the point.

Hi Tom!

After what I have seen working as Head of Security for various clubs, I would have to say "NO", BJJ is NOT great for effective street defense! Maybe one-on-one if you happen to be on some mats (sorry, couldn't resist), but the way the streets are today, I wouldn't want to go to the ground! I think, without a doubt, that there is NOTHING better than Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do for street self defense! I may post more later after I think about this more, but right now I have to get ready to teach today's portion of the training camp!

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
JKD@windstream.net
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 296-7070 (Incoming Only)

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"The REAL future of Jeet Kune Do belongs to US, the few, the proud, the HARDCORE! Now, what are we going to do with it?" _ Sifu Lamar M. Davis II

Hi Will! He's a 4th in Jujitsu and also trains in BJJ. So Whatever! :-)

Will and I would not be training in BJJ if we didn't feel it was effective for self defense.

Think about this. Some folks will say that we do it for the artistic part, or that we want to stay in shape, or just like rolling around on those nice safe mats with other guys and insert some sort of little joke about it. I really don't care. But, why would we choose to train in BJJ as opposed to Savate, or Shotokan, or Aikido, etc? I know, maybe we just don't 'get it'. Either way, I think it is effective and has many more benefits than disadvantages.

As I have said on other forums, the art wasn't created for competition. It was created out of Judo and for the sole purpose of making techniques work for smaller oppenents against larger ones.

I had a pretty dim view of it as well many many years ago, and then I thought that I would try and learn some of the escapes and counters just in case I ever got caught in anything. You see, I am not a very talented martial artist, in fact, I am terrible at it, so I can try to work on my JKD all day, but there is still the chance that I will end up on my back with some A-hole pounding my face in. So, I decided I would just learn the basics and then that should be good enough.

Then something remarkable happened. I learned that there is indeed a lot more to it than I thought and that the friendship, brotherhood, and sharing that goes on in class is unlike anything I have ever experienced. There are usually no egos, no politics, and no NOT training. The attitudes displayed made me enjoy training. I was introduced to Carlos Machado a few years later and it was because of him that I fell in love with the art.

Let me break it down for you all. Carlos is a legit LEGEND in the martial arts world. He has thousands of people from all over the world training with him, and several world champions. Chuck Norris himself chose to become his student and earned his Black Belt from him. That being said, Carlos is one of the nicest people on earth and has NO ego or attitude problem. He doesn't demand respect, yet he showers it all over everyone he meets. He says "Call me Carlos" and he will remember your name and what you do no matter how long you are away from his presence. If I could choose only one BJJ instructor in the world, it would be Carlos, and I have trained with several top level BJJ Black Belts, including the current undisputed world champion.

If anyone doubts for ONE SECOND that Carlos can't effectively defend himself, they would be making a serious mistake! He happens to be one of the toughest men on earth, you would just never guess it by looking at him. After all, he is only about 160lbs and doesn't give off that "badass" persona.

I love the art, the sport, and the training I get from BJJ and I will never stop training in it or teaching it to others. Just as I will never stop teaching JKD which is my first true love in the martial arts and can not nor will not ever be replaced by anthing.

And even though I say all of this, I still would never CHOOSE to be on the ground with anyone. I too have...oh, just the tiniest bit of experience in security and have had a couple of scrapes here and there, and I have taught one or two people who have had some things happen to them. I am by no means an expert or anything, but I do have a grasp of reality.

Bryan pretty much sums up all my feelings on training BJJ.

I'd like to add - that JKD is my prefered method of self defense, obviously. My school is called "Black Dragon JEET KUNE DO Academy" not "BD BJJ Academy" so... that should show you where my "true love" lies.

Bryan, that was perfect. Clearly you and Will have a clear grasp of reality. You can see it in your writing how much respect you have for Mr. Machado and for BJJ. No ego, no attitude...and "call me Carlos"...what more could anyone want from a legend in the martial arts community.

BIG Sean

Something to bear in mind. Often LEOs outnumber the people they are arresting. So the main risk of going to the ground (someone might jump you from behind) is lessened. Same for a steward/stewardess on an airplane. Also on airplanes you typically don't have broken beer bottles or other hazards. The stats seem to suggest that BJJ has been helpful to LEOs who have adopted it.

http://www.defendu.com/10_bjj.htm

That doesn't mean that BJJ is the answer to EVERY situation. It's just another tool. If you're facing down a hijacker with a box cutter crushing the windpipe is perfectly acceptable. If you're facing down a passenger that's having a panic attack some more "non lethal" methods might be called for.

Regards,

John M. Drake

In the article it says:

"Many martial artists and defensive tactics instructors tell their students to "never go to the ground" with a subject because of the dangers to be found there. However, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners aim for the exact opposite outcome – their goal is to almost always take the fight to the ground. Both LAPD statistics and the Gracie family assert that between 65 to 85 percent of altercations eventually end up on the ground anyway. The Gracies have made a career of training to live and feel comfortable in the position which has the greatest probability of occurring. Conversely, when you stand up in an altercation, the variables for you concerning distance, weapons, strikes and movement are theoretically infinite. Unfortunately, the momentum of any fight can be reversed instantly by your opponent when he lands a lucky punch or kick, but on the ground everything slows down and the opponent cannot generate much force behind his strikes."

I don't agree how they say there are many variables when you are standing up, yes there are variables but there are even more variables when you are on the ground limiting your movement. Weapons can still be prevalent on the ground and so can strikes. It is still possible to generate power in strikes when you are on the ground.

Hi Guys! This was all about street fighting Right? Not statistics. How many real street fights have you been in? I have been in numerous fights, too many. Wrong place, Wrong time or I just have a face everyone wants to hit:-)
No one was talking bad about your Instructor. I just wanted to say that 95% of the fights I have been in did not go to the ground and they were over very fast! 95% of the people that start trouble are not trained fighters. They are PUNKS that think they are trained fighters and if you go to the ground they have five of their buddies waiting to kick the crap out of you. I have had guns pointed at the back of my head and disarmed them, I've had knives pulled on me and I've disarmed them and I've been stabbed in the leg and the hand. I have fought multiple attackers. ALL over very fast! You want to take care of business and get out of there, not hang around and tell everyone your name. They'll just drive by your house and throw you some lead! There are many things that are useful in JJ and BJJ, many breaks you can use to end a fight without going to the ground. I have used some, however, most,95% have ended very quick with JKD! Some have ended with RUN FU when the oods were not favorable! I have had friends Mauled and Killed in street fights. Take all your training and don't be somewhere you shouldn't be. If you've been in any real street fights, you know what I'm talking about! Lance

Hello Lance,

I with your point that "fighting isn't statistics". I also find the stats about fights that "go to the ground" highly suspect. That said I don't discount the stats about reduced injuries. That's an easy one to collect. Either an officer got injured after an altercation or he didn't. Either a suspect got injured or he didn't. And the LAPD wouldn't have motive to monkey with these stats IMO. Yes in a TYPICAL street fight you want to "get out of there as fast as possible". But if you are an arresting officer is that really an option? Really, we have to compare apples to apples here. If you have 3 officers moving an unarmed but strong resisting suspect from one holding cell to another that's quite a different scenario than a lone citizen walking down a dark alley and facing 3 potentially armed thugs. The first post in this thread brought up the existence of a BJJ training program for law enforcement and flight attendants. And whether I want to admit it or not, that makes perfect sense. Context is everything.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Hi John! I agree with all of what you say about the police and flight attendents. However his first question was how effective it was in REAL WORLD self defense. That for me is when the police don't show up till everythings over. Lance

Hello Lance!

I agree with you here 100%! If my life is on the line, especially if there are multiple assailants, the LAST PLACE I want to be is on the ground! In REAL LIFE there is no time for pausing to think about what you are going to do. You must train your skills to a level where you just ACT ... IMMEDIATELY!

P. S. - Can't wait to see you and the guys next month! I know we will have a blast as always! I'll give Bill a call and let him know we are coming! Ahhhhh, more books!

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
JKD@windstream.net
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 296-7070 (Incoming Only)

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"The REAL future of Jeet Kune Do belongs to US, the few, the proud, the HARDCORE! Now, what are we going to do with it?" _ Sifu Lamar M. Davis II

Hello Sifu! YOU KNOW! We're all ready for a Great Seminar! Lance

Hello Lance,

You're right. Tom did ask about the "real world", but then in the same post he talked about the Gracie program for flight attendants and police officers and then went on to say why he didn't think that was a good idea. So to Tom anyway police officers and flight attendants are part of the "real world". (I think the police and flight attendants would agree. :) ) Anyway any technique in martial arts is a tool. And different tools are needed for different circumstances. If you need to gut a fish a knife is a great tool. If you need to hammer a nail a knife isn't such a good tool. There's always a circumstance where one tool is better than the other. Case in point, I'm a deacon at my church. At one deacons' meeting the head told us about a recent situation where a guest seemed quite agitated like he might be on drugs. He said that in situations like that we needed to be ready to help "escort him out". A straight blast wouldn't be my tool of choice in that situation. ;) I wouldn't want to "roll" in the aisle either. But some standing control techniques might be useful.

Regards,

John M. Drake

I did not mean to say that real world situations are the same for flight attendants/police officers and for a person in an alley with guys who want to kill him.

I think that BJJ isn't good for street "real world" self defense but it can be useful if you had to restrain a person. I suppose I judged BJJ too quickly and thought it wasn't good for anything except the ring. There are tools that can be used but that also depends on the situation

I was probably thinking that if flight attendants were to be on the ground, then they should just learn simple moves like eye gouging, throat strikes or anything that be used to get the person off quickly.But then I didn't realize that that is not the preferred method for that situation and therefore restraining the person is the obvious choice. Personally, in a real street fight I would take Bruce's art over the Gracies 100% guaranteed

Tom

I argree with you there. In law enforcement and security (civilian) you have to use less than deadly force against someone, particularly if they are unarmed, but still dangerous. Just think of the lawsuits an airline could rack up if, for instance, someone's poor old Uncle Billy got his throat crushed when he had a panic attack and got the "crazies" on board the plane.

Hi John! I think we agree more than we disagree! I always enjoy your posts! Lance

besides John, Will, and Sean actually READ what I have been saying in my posts, or just taking out bits and pieces.

Lance,

I never said anyone was talking bad about Carlos. What I was trying to point out, but apparantly not obtuse enough for most people, is that Carlos and his brothers are more than capable of defending themselves, and I would venture that the level of intensity and nature of violence that they have experienced can hardly be compared to by most people in the states.

When I first started training it was under a guy who was a fighter in King of the Cage. He wanted to see my stand up ability and came at me with a jab. I moved and countered with a backfist, cross, hook combo that he didn't counter. He stopped and said "let's go back to the ground now" Then he asked me why I wanted to learn the grappling stuff, and when I told him, he said "with your speed and skills, I can't see anyone taking you down"

I guess I could have taken that, and the fact that I too have been in more than my fair share of fights, also without ever having gone to the ground, and been fine. But, I decided that being myopic about it was a mistake. Maybe, just maybe every fight you ever get into will in fact be with some idiot or drunk or teenager that can't fight anyway. Wonderful for you. But, what if you trip, what if they are much bigger than you and overwhelm you and take you to the ground? What is your answer for that? When you practice against takedowns...and I assume you do, right? When you practice those takedowns, do you do that against someone who actually knows HOW to do them correct, or against the all-to-easy redneck football tackle? Also, how do you set that scenario up?

Again, go back and read everything I said, not just parts that suit your response to me. I also said that I would never CHOOSE to go to the ground myself in a real fight.

"besides John, Will, and Sean actually READ what I have been saying in my posts, or just taking out bits and pieces."

Bryan!

I read EVERYTHING that EVERYONE posts on my forum! And yes, I understand that you, Will and others love BJJ training! I don't care for it, and that is my right! It doesn't have anything to do with whether I feel it is effective or not, it has to do with a herniated disk in my lower back! I cannot get on the ground and play pretzel for/with someone! I may not get back up ... EVER! My back has done well for the last few years with very little trouble, and I would like to keep it that way! I do that by doing what I do best, which is Jeet Kune Do! And regardless of what anyone may think, I have a VERY GOOD "grasp of reality" ... far more than MOST who speak of such terms! I am fifty years old, and I have been in enough REAL FIGHTS (no ring/no rules) against both armed and unarmed/single and multiple opponents to last TEN LIFETIMES! I don't care if I EVER get into another fight, but if I do, once again, I WILL NOT go to the ground!

I have said many times before, if any of my students wish to train in other arts, that is fine, as long as they don't call it Jeet Kune Do! I still feel that way, but I personally prefer to stick with Jeet Kune Do! That is my choice, that is what I do best, and that is what I will keep on doing! I will have to say again, however, that this forum is for the discussion of HARDCORE JEET KUNE DO and BRUCE LEE'S FIGHTING METHODS, not jiu jitsu or other arts! Let's stay on track from now on, and things won't get out of hand like they have apparently done here!


Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
Hardcore Jeet Kune Do
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
JKD@windstream.net
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Phone (205) 296-7070 (Incoming Only)

"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"The REAL future of Jeet Kune Do belongs to US, the few, the proud, the HARDCORE! Now, what are we going to do with it?" _ Sifu Lamar M. Davis II

In response to the post that LEO's must use less than lethal force against an unarmed person is half true. If the person poses a serious threat to the officer or a "civilian" then lethal force is leagl to use; or at least here in Alabama it is. Take someone my size vs a female officer and you get the point. Yes pepper spray can be used if the conditions are right for it. Windy day and it is no good. Still if blinded I could get my hands on her and that would not be good. Yes I have been sprayed (in training) and yes it burned but I still had to hang on to my weapon and not let it be taken away from me. So the spray is not an end all. Also LEO's are trained not to let a person get that close to them in a confrontation. I was trained with the Ladder of Force approach. First rung is my presence, second is my stance and voice command, third is level of voice and hand to either spray, baton or handgun along with loud and clear commands (no more nice guy we are taking charge), fourth is brandishing the weapon with final commands and the last is using the weapon. This is the basic ladder used. Many sub rungs in the ladder as each situation is different. Rungs can be skipped as well; again depending on the situation.

Kent