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Generally I would say that #1 affects us the most. whether your looking forward to what the BLF is doing or not we all seem to be waiting on them. We're self concious of what logo's we're using and how we use Bruce's name. And indirectly we are all waiting to see what kind of curriculum/instructor programs they put out.
Even the camps that don't really care and just try to train hard keep a watchful eye on the BLF.
As for #2... the public has always had an idea of what a fight should look like. And that out look has usually been different than JKD's perception of a fight.
As for #3... I think there are fewer phonies out there now than there was 20 years ago.
Most people will see through the phony, get your instant black belt or instructor certification with your purchase today crap. Much like the blf and the way it has, is and will be a money making scheme for we know who.
I do see the effect that mma has had on the mind set of younger people. They want to train in everything and get it all now. What they don't understand is that it does take time to "master" an art. Yes the ring is far different than the street and many people do not see it that way. I know a guy that boxed and he told me that his coach would always tell them to never assume the boxing stance when in a street/bar fight. Why? If up against some trained attacker they, tha attacker, will kick to the groin etc... Boxers are not trained for this. I heard some younger people say that they train mma; as if it a style unto itself. I see this trend growing as well.
for me 1. is contributing to the this vs that political debate
2.agrred that to many people believe that there is a quick way to become prolific at fighting by doing MMA
3. also agree that serious people seeking ma will see through the BS and avoid over night BB,instructorships, etc..
Aren't #1 and #3 just about the same thing? As far as #2 goes, I think a lot of people buy into what the Gracies say about the percentage of fights that go to the ground.
I think it's interesting how people will believe something about how fights go to the ground. It's funny that whenever you hear about the vast majority of fights going to the ground that it's always grapplers that say this.
In my personal opinion, I think number 2 really affects JKD because many more people are interested in training in MMA, they see it as being a complete fighter and be able to fight for real. I saw a clip about contestants on the Ultimate Fighter show, they were starting to fight in the backyard and you see how well the grappling works when there's no mats
Good post. I think #3 and #1 rank pretty close
and then #2. There are some good things to
learn from other arts, but I think Bruce Lee
probably did most of the ground work for us.
Most fights do go to the ground. We in Hardcore JKD perfer to knock you to the ground. Now if a very pretty girl wants to grapple then I am all for it.
Dround work and Grappling is just a fad.. Its the fashion at the moment> I'm sure no one could grapple Bruce if were alive today he was to fast and explosive. Grappling is just an excuse for people who dont want the real deal. Grappling is great for competion but wont work for **** in the street..
I would list them:
1
3
2
I think that the BLF is putting a strangle hold on the world of JKD because
they want to control everything. Instuctors that don't know how to teach real JKD spread false JKD to the masses. It doesn't matter what MMA does because know matter what style you use, a street fight is always going to look like a street fight. It depends on the indiviual.
It is just as silly for you to dismiss Grappling as it is for Grapplers to dismiss Standup!
I've a good friend that is a Gracie Instructor/Blackbelt...if you ever want a humbling experience, sit in on a Class.
In our Trapping, we look for structural weaknesses and mistakes from our opponent that give us an advantage.
Unless they are trained in trapping, most people don't know when they are giving you a "present".
Rolling with a well-trained grappler is the same. You are constantly giving them "presents" without knowing (that is, until you get choked out or find yourself in an arm bar).
The experience didn't make me want to BECOME A BJJ blackbelt.
It DID however make me want to practice EVASION of Takedowns...A LOT.
Also being VERY aware of body positioning and arm elbow structure.
It also made me practice downward striking and Stop Hits aimed at hitting a Shooter without giving him my Leg (they WANT you to Kick).
I would vote for #2, as I see a sign every other block here in Atlanta for mixed martial arts. I have to wonder how legit some of these people are and I have good success in sparring some of them. There are those that are the real deal, but lots of pretenders looking for a place to direct their innate aggression. So many lose the spirit of the arts and I think that is important.
Having visited a few of these places for a free class to see what it is about, I am not very uncomfortable with some of the appoaches to the fighting philosophy. A lot of these younger cats have a real problem with giving others their "propers" (respect) I personally prefer a place that is training leaders, who can also happen to fight, than a place that teaches fighters to fight.
Which of these issues do you think affects us the most throught the least? In what order whould you list their importance in how they affect us?
1. Shannon Lee, Ted Wong, and the Bruce Lee Estate/Concord Moon (lawyers, copyrights, etc)
2. The growing popularity of MMA and the public's perception of what a 'real' fight is supposed to look like
3. Phony Instructors giving the art a bad name and misleading previous students as to what we do
My personal thoughts are that 3 affects us the most and 1 the least, but I want to hear other's opinions on this as well.
-Jack Harris
Sorry if I'm raking over coals here, but I found this thread and had to say something.
I think #3 is a HUGE factor. Too many people taking the quote "JKD is just a name" out of context and using that to teach everything from BJJ to escrima to decorative cake making and giving it the name Jeet Kune Do. These are people who know 1 thing about 10,000 things when it's best to know 10,000 things about 1 thing, hence they teach a watered down art which people can't take to.
If I can speak frankly and with respect (As well as from my own fairly limited experience), I think this situation is compounded somewhat by some of the bone fide instructors/students. There's a perception in some areas that real JKD is dying out, and I think the politics and the "My sifu is tougher than your sifu" attitude you sometimes encounter doesn't help the situation. I've seen established instructors expelled from their association for simply attending a 1 hour workshop given by an instructor of an "unrecognized" branch of JKD. So it's not the lack of new blood that's hampering the growth of the art, it's attitudes like that which, even though they're meant to preserve the integrity of the art, are actually slowly strangling the life out of it.
And of course, there's the lack of 'new blood'. Other arts are better advertised, operate from slick dojo or studios. Again, in my limited experience, there's a real reluctance to actually put JKD into the market place, like it's selling out or something. This isn't about running a "belt factory", it's about opening up JKD (REAL JKD!) to as many people as possible so they can enjoy what the art has to offer and maybe even have the opportunity to mix with cool people and great role models to the extent that their lives are changed for the better. Many may not go the distance, and they don't with any martial art, but some will. These are people who would otherwise never have found the art if it wasn't for the advert in the paper, or on the local radio, or whatever.
I think there's a tendancy to look to the past, what Sigung Bruce said and why he said it (Very important of course!), but less regard for the future. The future of JKD is indeed in our hands, it's no good if we keep those hands in our metaphorical pockets!
I believe the biggest issue is folks not putting the sweathours, pain and dedication to improve themselves. In JKD there are no magic answers. Get a good instructor and work hard for years. We have one guy in our class who only has one leg. If Bob can do it anyone can.
Well, I think THE biggest problem is how we all tear at each other about who teaches what, the types of training we do, or who got certified by who. Or arguing about trapping, chi sau, etc. MMA doesn't affect JKD anymore than it does any other art. TKD is STILL the most popular art out there making money. So, if anything affects JKD in that sense, it's TKD and other arts that have no base in reality whatsoever.
But, to make statements like "grappling is just a fad" or "real fights don't go to the ground" is like stepping back into a time machine to 1993 just before the first UFC.
I hear a LOT of JKD guys downplaying MMA fighters...but I have YET to see anyone try and see if they can do anything against someone who is well versed in it. How many folks actually work against good grapplers or MMA fighters. If you place yourself in a bubble and sanitize it by only training with people who NEVER trained in or with those folks, then aren't you guilty of "affecting" JKD?
I won't beat this horse any longer, as most people here already know me and know my views on this subject in depth. But remember, close-mindedness is a killer in any realm, especially martial arts.
To me, anyone dedicating time and energy to a martial art - ANY martial art - is making a positive contribution to the world as well as their own lives. It doesn't matter whether they're training in MMA, Capoeira, Tai Chi, Muay Thai or JKD. They're walking a path that many are either too scared or too lazy to walk themselves. Their loss.
Personally, all my time it taking up with trying to suck just a little less than I did yesterday to bother about whether any other art is better than mine. And after all, as JKD practitioners our first consideration should be with the individual as they exist in the moment, and NOT their chosen system. I could beat Chuck Liddell today, and get mugged by a 14 year old tomorrow. (And in my neighbourhood, it's quite likely!)
In the same way there's fools on YouTube passing judgment on Sifu Davis without ever meeting or training with him, there's plenty who denigrate MMA and sport based systems without ever really experiencing them. TKD may not be "street effective" in some people's opinions, but it definitely has a value especially to the people who train in it. I'd never bad mouth MMA unless I personally had been in the cage, and I've not. And there's people who even JKD is dying out or no longer relevant (Some are even within JKD!).
There's critics in life, and there's doers, and you're either one or the other in my experience.
Blimey - ANOTHER rant! Sheesh, I need to get out more! Hehehee!!
I agree with most of what Mr. Bryan Smith said. However... I am going to play a little devil's advocate. I think it is just as much as an overgeneralization to say that MMA fighters are all great fighters, and then back it up with get in there with them.
If you want my opinion, you seem to be fortunate to be around great fighters in the sport that back their mouths up in it. My only problem with the MMA schools (from this area ) is that it is MARKETED as the all and end all style, and you have alot of Rich kids (its expensive man let me tell you) who have never ever been in a street fight, let alone in a bad neighborhood who think they can kick anybody's posterior with their classes. Sure some of them get in their and spar til they have a black eye and bloody nose (I have...). But in reality, with the school I had free lessons with, I was still sparring with a rule set, on a mat, one on one. You know thats all cool, it boosted my confidence (big time) but it was nothing like going to the down town Hip Hop club and a bunch of dudes in another fraternity trying gang up on you, when there is absolutely no room to move.
So, basically, I am agreeing with you, however I think it is equally as close minded to negate someones argument by saying get in there with them (in their element) or assume that all MMA schools are equal, and knowing that is a different ball game when someone is trying to kill you.
Oh yeah, I am sorry to what have happened to your pupil. He has my prayers. Is he at least getting a lawsuit?
#1 is trying to give people a defined JKD. They have been slapping all the #3's with lawsuits and ultimatums "join us and pay up or stop using the name". Which is good cause they got all they money so let them pay for the cleaning. ( I don't stand behind how they teach things though)
#2 is not affecting JKD like people want to believe. #2 plays to the "get up and go! things are done! whats next?" culture of the west. Western civilization doesn't want to wait for anything. The East is the exact opposite from this which is why martial arts have thrived for so long.
Who says JKD is supposed to be a nationwide epidemic? Bruce Lee refrained from taking this path many times. He denied opening the Green Hornet Kato schools. He charged ridiculous amounts of money to deter an abundance of pupils when he became famous. He even realized he couldn't control the quality of what his students where learning is his schools because he was to busy and shut them down (ultimate quality control LOL).
Lastly (maybe Kimsut can back me up here) for those who don't think wing chun belongs in JKD; the bickering! Wing chun has been plagued by fighting factions through out it's history. Due to a lack of define history similar to JKD's lack of Bruce setting a very detailed doctrine of what is and what is not. Yip Man perferred close interaction with his students and made many simplifications to aid the students learning. He preferred to be informal allowing students to figure things out on their own.
Looks like the apple didn't fall far from the tree!
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