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Tom Drake (no login) from IP address 130.113.170.202
Hi Guys
What do you think is the best way to defend against someone that wants to take you down? Let's say for example he tries to shoot in for a double leg takedown.
Tom
that shoot would be wrestlers or JJ guys. As such they tend to look for the sprawl or even a side step as a "counter" but most will not and do not look for a straight kick right at them. Either that or bil gee tot he eyes will work as well.
I think what Kent said is a good solution
and you could also do like Bruce Lee in
his Self-Defense Fighting Method book....
just kick them in the face!
In keeping my response in accordance to the rules of this forum, I will keep my answer strictly "OJKD".
When a person shoots in on your, you have to understand that this doesn't just happen within a vacuum, they set you up, they try their best to distract you. It is easy for all of us to say "we would do this" or "we would do that" but in the heat of the moment, most of that goes out the window. If I had any ground/wrestling skills at all, and if I was going to shoot in on your, I would never just "shoot"...I would come in with a hard overhead left to draw your attention and get you moving, it is during your reaction to my fake that I would now shoot in.
With all of this said, for me, when I teach, I stress the idea that we want at all times to avoid "standing on the head of a pin"...that is, having my two feet next each other. Many fighters are smart, and if they see you use a backward "pendulum", they will draw that from you and time their shoot to hit as your legs are coming together, if that happens, I sure hope you've studied some of OJKD grappling. This is why good strong structure is important. Yee Gee Kym Young Ma has great structure inherent to it, and it is that structure, that coiled forward pressure in the hips that can and will drive your counter energy forward. (if you think about it, the structure of a sprawl is very much in line with YGKYM). Keep your footwork simple, change angles when you can and attack. I am not a huge fan of strikes as a counter for a take down, to me gaining the correct angle, with forward energy (i.e. positional control) are more important. Once that is established, THEN attack!
by high overhead left do you mean as in Chuck Lidell? Easy side step it or still kick. Either way you should attack into it. I do have ground skills and yet I find even when shooting I would not like a kick to the chest or face. Also if a person is close enough to throw a punch I should have already attacked or at the very least been in a ready position. I agree with the having the feet together.
Other suggestions would be elbows to the head, pull hair, pull ears... Remember this is not the ring/cage that we train for it is real life where a tap will not end the fight.
I agree with you on the point that have your feet together is asking for a take-down. From what I remember from class (and I could be wrong), the only time you would pendulum would be to avoid a kick to the leg. I would think you would probably never pendulum away from a handstrike or feint.
I always wanted to kick to the face because even a toe tap to the nose would hurt. A hammer fist to the back of the neck would also be nice to try.
Like Kent said it's no competition. Eye gauges, pulling hair/ears, biting, finger hooking a nostril, hitting family jewels, pressure points. Call it what you want to call it if it's between life or death it's getting done. Not to mention any objects in a surrounding area. Think of the possibilities in the following places: bars, restaurants; if outside any rocks,sticks,bottles or hard objects laying around. What if the guy has friends nearby?
To many things can happen to want to bring a fight to the ground. Like Sifu says get in, finish up and get out. No need to stay after for autograph sessions.
Positive Energy Activates Constant Elevation
P.E.A.C.E.
just wanted to say that i don't really think giving them a kick would be the best way in which to take it.
by giving them a kick it also gives them your leg, which grapplers would really love to take.
Say for instance your kick was on its way, but just like Big Sean said it was set up. He could be moving at such a pace that it smothers the kick and he then has the advantage of using it to drop you and lay hell on you.
i would prefer a good old finger jab to the eyes or a forearm strike to the neck by a round of chain punching then skies the limit.
Big Sean has good insights (from experience, keep in mind).
Other "this isn't competition" considerations are also great! Good point about "grabbing the leg given too".
I'd like to add - a wrestler has trained to "change angles" and focus on a shoot - that is, they'll go for control of the hips and if distance is gained, they'll switch to ankle picks, etc. They can switch VERY FAST - faster than you can imagine. Trust me, one of my students in norcal was a division 1 wrestler, and he was amazing fast on that.
Basically, if they go for a lead leg and that leg is no longer available (moved away, went into an attack, etc) they can, mid-shoot, switch to the other leg with fluid and efficient movement.
Just keep in mind, as good as you are at what you do, they are equally as good at what they do. That is what they train day in and day out. So don't underestimate, basically.
I like Lamar's anti-shoot options as well, and have used them against said wrestler and BJJ guys - and it works. It's good structure, good timing and good footwork.
no one seem to consider that the finger jab and those kind of attack could miss.
what would you do if it happens ??
i dont beleive any attacks work 100% of the time
i think its important to have proper counter grappling moves in my arsenal.
i know cause i have been trained against take downs and i still do, and in sparring i discovered that nothing works all the time and its true whit counter grappling .
i think its important to have second line defence , like if i dont have the time to kick his face what im gonna do
Since we are talking about a real fight on the street, some things you should take into consideration is that regardless of whether or not the person who is attempting a takedown is good at them or not (knows to set up the take-down) there is going to be a pre-liminary movement.
So, if I fake a high move and then move for the take-down, JKD training dictates that I would use either lin sil die dar and immediately follow up, or simply intecept with a stop kick or jab of my own. If my reaction is to block or parry without any kind of simultaneous strike of my own, then yes, I can see being taken down, or at least being in a compromising situation to pre-clude the take-down (has at least one hand grabbing my leg).
Also, in most real fights, something else will pre-clude the entire engagement. For instance, they will most likely be in my face or talking themselves into the fight by trying to intimidate or threaten me. I doubt seriously that we will square off and prepare for battle UFC-style.
Yes, I take a little BJJ and have trained with wrestlers and Judo guys on take-downs, and everything that Sean and Will are talking about are on the money! But so is what others are saying about employing certain strategies.
Now, let's say someone comes up and is talking a lot trash and acting like they have a problem with you but haven't gone so far as to make you think that they are all that serious, then out of nowhere he shoves you, and as you are regaining balace, he shoots in for the take-down. This goes hand in hand with what Sean was saying about set-ups, just in a slightly different context.
In this situation we are not squared off, nor am I completely sure that this person is going to do more than just a light shove, then it turns to something else.
The only time I have ever ended up on the ground in a real altercation, VERY RAPIDLY ended up with my opponent giving up. No, I didn't submit him or even strike him, but I had him apologizing and verbally 'submitting' so that I would let him go...and I was on my back!
You may be asking yourself how did I let this happen or how did it get to that point. Well, ask me in person and I will relay the whole story, but to make this short, I didn't expect things to escalate to a full on altercation. I think most of us have had some turd ask you how you do certain techniques, only to try and thwart your move in order to try and discount it. Well, that's basically what happened here, except I decided to take things just one step further and show my opponent that I had no desire to grapple with him and for me now, the only thing left to do was to really fight.
And as far as preventing it from going to the ground...that would have been impossible given the situation.
These are some really great answers and comments regarding takedown type situations! I can certainly appreciate the thought behind everything, and the work that all of you must have put in to come to these conclusions!
I noticed that many of you mentioned the use of fakes, feints and set-ups to draw a response before shooting in for the takedown. Something that my good friend and fellow Second Generation Instructor Tim Tackett said to me one time makes so much sense! Jeet Kune Do practitioners DO NOT react to fakes or feints, we INTERCEPT! Think about it for a while and get back to me with your thoughts on it!
I stand at only about 5”6’ and once had a wrestler attempt to take me down shoot style. He was easily at the 6’ mark in height. I used the backwards pendulum step back to back twice while simultaneously putting a couple lead jabs into the guys face. Given his proximity to mine at the start of his “test of my skills,” I had to use the pendulum to keep my lead leg from being grabbed. I just didn’t have any other choice about it. His hands were within inches of my leg. There were no fakes etc to look out for, just really fast straight shots at my legs.
He got a little too close after his second attempt. On his third and LAST attempt I then side stepped to my left with a left pak sao onto his right arm and a punch into his face. He wasn’t knocked out or anything but he’d had all he wanted.
He later told me that he was unable to move past my lead hand and he was actually scared after the first try. Imagine that! That guy was scared after he started and he was bigger than me.
I could sit try to second guess my experience of that moment but at the end of the day the pendulum shuffle saved my butt from a take down and my intercepting hand held the offensive line! Lucky me that was the last time I had an encounter with any body (1997). BTW, the guy was one of the better wrestlers of my high school.
When those shooters crouch over they are open to head shots. Their hands are shooting low below their face. They are in a disadvantage for a split second once they have “committed” to a take down. Timing is a key element for a response. Even if you have to punch the top of the head do so while moving your feet off their line of attack. NOBODY likes getting hit on the top of the head.
Hey, its been a while since i posted here,(i been on T.Carruthers forum) how's everybody doin?
I'm no expert, and i dont have much experience, but i've been learning so i have a little to say about this one...
Assuming you didnt intercept on the fake, and you backed away, and your opponent shoots in, couldnt you just drop shift to his level when he shoots and crack him with a hard rear left straight, or a lead right hook? It would intercept his shoot and put him down REAL good.
or is this not so good? sifu davis (or anybody else) lemme know...
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