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I need your opinions

January 7 2011 at 8:42 AM
  (no login)
from IP address 170.146.225.4

I have twin nieces (10) that are starting to face some bullying situations at school. We cannot afford to send them to class as we spend money on their tutoring, so my sister wants me to help them. My question to you guys and specifically Sifu, is what kinds of techniques should I concentrate on for kids that they could apply?

As much as Sifu does not like jun fan/jkd kickboxing, I think that is probably the best things I can teach them now. I have done a little Muay Thai, some Kali and Self Defense Gracie BJJ, but I am now at a loss for what should I work on with them so they can defend themselves, but not hurt other kids seriously. I have ruled out Wing Chun just because I think it is a bit difficult to conceptualize and is too nasty for them right now. I believe that once they stand up and give a good account of themselves most problems will cease anyway, but I welcome you all's opinions one way or another.

Peace!

Jeff
Atl

 
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Andrew
(Login LionsLight)
71.110.16.49

Approach it with a childs mind

January 7 2011, 5:06 PM 

What is taught shouldn't really differ but how it taught has to be changed. A few quick arguments on why I would teach them WC / JKD:

WC/JKD is backed by science I can't see why I would want to show someone I care about something less efficient

Practice makes perfect because with each repetition the neural pathways are increased and body movement efficiency increases. Teaching someone to do things in a less efficient manner can't be helpful. Performing less efficient movements will increase those pathways, which will establish an obstacle to overcome later.

Since they are little ladies they should eventually be taught how to defend themselves against bigger stronger aggressive males. In flight or flight situations how a person reacts is how they are trained, I would rather the movements they react with be ones that will save their lives.

Females are perfect for WC because sensitivity is their strong point not strength. If a bigger person was to attack them they would need the smarts and the sensitivity training to attack and run away, the chances of them overpowering the opponent are slim.

So now the teaching:

Children will play while learning dont expect to gain their attention for more than 10-15 mins at a time

Don't explain fighting theory in great detail simply show them to punch with a vertical fist, they don't need to be bothered with the complexities of why a vertical fist creates an advantage.

Children should not be held to the same high standard as adults. If they are performing a straight punch with a slight telegraph it is okay. The specifics can be worked out later, if they continue.

Introduce structure and situation awareness before devastating strikes. Explain fighting measure, importance of surroundings, clothing, the disadvantages of hair length, footwork, how to asses situations, crowd fights, being backed into corners, multiple threats. If they are taught to recognize potential dangers the chances of anything bad happening will decrease drastically.

Turn Chi Sao into a game, establish the rules and tell them to hit you if they can. What niece of nephew wouldn't want to take the free shot?. Their movements wont be perfect but any practice is better than none.




Positive Energy Activates Constant Elevation
P.E.A.C.E.

 
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Keith P. Myers
(Login KeithMyers)
24.242.23.109

Re: I need your opinions

January 8 2011, 1:48 PM 

IMHO, you aren't going to turn 10 year old girls into fighters. Your strategy should be to work with them to increase their self-esteem and confidence levels. Most bully situations are from psychological intimidation rather than physical abuse. If physical abuse is involved, then let the local authorities take care of it! Now no doubt, teaching kids martial arts is an excellent way to increase their self-esteem and confidence levels! I'm just saying WHAT you teach them is probably less important than the attitude you can teach them.

 
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(Login gematriot)
85.243.225.138

"Tweak Things" slightly.

January 8 2011, 3:31 PM 

Hi there....
I assume that your primary concern with using Wing Chun is that the system uses punching as its primary defense method. This is a wise decision, from what I understand, the reigning outlook in many USA schools punish students for defending them selves physically. IMHO Wing Chun is a good place to start, because of the Chi Sau, which can very easily be turned into a game. I would NOT teach closed fist striking, focus on palm striking, pushing and pulling.

 
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(Login dandriggers1)
67.54.220.144

keep it simple

January 8 2011, 4:09 PM 

I have four kids of my own and have had to deal with this same thing with my two boys that are 9 and 7 years old. Although both of my sons have prior Karate experience, it seems like an unwillingness to fight more than a lack of skill. They worry about getting into trouble or what my reaction will be (I am a school official). I have always been against starting a fight but I expect them to stand up for themselves. I have never shown my kids any JKD techniques and don't plan on it for years to come. I dont believe this would be wise just because I dont want anyone getting seriously hurt if they were to use it and "get it right". One of the things I remember from my days of taking Karate was to keep it simple by practicing a 2-3 punch combination if you really got into a fight. The theory behind this was that if you were really in a fight, that you would be nervous, scared, or too keyed up to remember how to do a kick or do any complex moves. So the complex moves were to be used in tournaments where you werent fighting for your life. I think that this might apply here. Since boxing techiniques are a part of JKD, I believe that this would be a good place to start. I apologize to SIFU for even discussing Karate here but I am pointing out its limitations not promoting it. If your kids cant talk their way out of the situation, then I would think that using enough force to get them out the situation would be in order. I was not a bully growing up, but I do remember in 5th grade lightly kidding a boy much smaller than me who punched me one good time in the stomach. After recovering from this punch I left him alone. Once again, it was something rather simple that ended the situation. I hope this helps.

Dan Driggers

 
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kent
(no login)
174.34.155.242

fighting

January 8 2011, 8:09 PM 

My dad taught me to never pick or start a fight but when push came to shove to beat the hell out of the other person however i could. If the person was bigger find something to make the fight equal. Never run from a fight but if it can be avioded then do so.

I taught my nephews when they were younger to kick to the shin or knee or if closer the groin then straight blast the nose till they got tired or a teacher stopped them. This would teach the bully and others watching a lesson they would not forget.

If the person was bigger then do whatever i takes gouge the eyes, bite, hit them with a book etc.., if they kicked the person in the groin and he fell then kick to the head and ribs. I taught them to hurt the person and hurt them bad.

Once people figure out you will fight and you will hurt someone they will tend to leave you alone.

Kent

 
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Carl
(Login CarlLenton)
95.144.134.107

bullying

January 9 2011, 9:08 AM 

Hi Guys,
After considering all the replies on here to the original question i feel that there are two points to consider before teaching "kids" any self defence methods/techniques.

(1)Do you really want to be responsible for the damage your "kid's" could inflict on other "kids" because you taught them to "gouge eyes" etc ?

(2)Do you really want to blame yourself for the rest of your life because you DIDN'T teach them enough to handle a one to one situation that ended badly ?

I believe we can achieve a happy medium by teaching the "kids" the RIGHT techniques to enable them to avoid being a "victim" from known bullies and also to protect themselves from the unprovoked attacks that seem prevalent today !
We need to teach our children to recognise and defuse any potentially confrontational situation by first, either leaving the scene or if blocked, then giving a loud vocal signal coupled with a JKD bai jong stance. This will usually "put off" a would be attacker because it shows confidence and a readiness to deal with the situaion should it get physical and in the eyes of witnesses he/she has tried his/her best to stop the fight before it began.
Second, I agree the pushing/pulling/jerking even trapping techniques of JKD/Wing Chun are good to teach with maybe one or two open palm strikes as they are "effective" while "appearing" defensive especially LIN SIL DIE DAR. Usually this will deter an attacker as he will feel as though he has been "out gunned" and made to look not so tough in everyone else's eyes, this is something which a bully depends on for his reputation as a "hard nut".
Our kid's can be made MORE confident and therefore LESS likely to be picked on by bullies through a few simple but well practised techniques that will help keep them safe but not make them dangerous if you know what i mean !
Carl.


I am a Diplomat for peace, but there comes a time when you have to use full contact sign language for the hard of hearing !!!

 
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(no login)
170.146.225.4

thanks

January 10 2011, 9:37 AM 

I appreciate the input guys and will let you know how we progress

Peace!

Jeff
atl

 
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(Premier Login Sifu Lamar M. Davis II)
Forum Owner
75.90.72.99

My Grandson

January 10 2011, 10:07 AM 

Hi Jeff!

Well, apparently my almost three year old grandson has been watching my Black Belt DVDs! He calls them his "papa movies"! My daughter said that you need not try to interrupt while he is watching, and he is glued to the TV. She said he will stand up and try to do the things that he sees me doing when I am demonstrating, then he sits back down and listens while I am explaining things. Apparently he is learning from the DVDs, because he bil jee'd his father in the throat the other day! So maybe letting kids watch DVDs that were designed for adults is not such a great idea! happy.gif

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Senior Instructor
HARDCORE JEET KUNE DO
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com
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"Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit First - ALWAYS!"

"The REAL future of Jeet Kune Do belongs to US, the few, the proud, the HARDCORE! Now, what are we going to do with it?" _ Sifu Lamar M. Davis II

 
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(no login)
170.146.225.4

Awesome

January 12 2011, 8:38 AM 

I sent you a pic of my 4 yr old grand son. Every time I put on my gloves for heavy bag, he says he wants to fight too! When can I fight? LOL!! he goes and puts on my fingerless gloves and right now just trying to teach him to hold is guard, do a jik tek, and jab, cross straight down the line. No wild punching son!!! LOL!!


Peace!

Jeff
atl

 
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(Login Tansau)
12.34.158.203

Re: I need your opinions

January 12 2011, 3:29 PM 

I've had the opportunity to see a lot of kids martial arts programs, and almost none do anything more productive than give the kids some self-confidence when facing a bully. The one exception that I've found is the Gracie Bullyproof program, which is what I'm using with my own 10-year-old daughter. For one, it uses a series of games that teach the physical skills in a very fun way. I'll come home from work and she'll be waiting: "Daddy, let's practice Jiu-Jitsu!"

Another element is that it is 100% based on controls. There is no striking, no chokes or other elements that are quickly grounds for suspension in most schools. The program is very clear about boundries, how to handle aggression, and how to deal with school administration.

The final element is it's all based on techniques that can be used by a smaller kid against a bully who's bigger, stronger and more aggressive. I've watched my little girl tie up some older, bigger boys, so I know this isn't just marketing hype.

https://www.graciekids.com/

I've also introduced her to some principles from Wing Chun and JKD, too. We've talked centerline, facing, etc. We've done pak sao drills, foundation chi sao and a few hubud drills from FMA. This will give her a good foundation should she decide to continue her studies as she gets older.


 
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KENT
(no login)
174.37.194.155

no gropping

January 12 2011, 6:34 PM 

The Gracie crap will work when they are little. it is when they get older and they have to contend with "friends" and people just wanting to take cheap shots that the Gracie crap will get them hurt.

You and I are fighting we go to the ground, this is fictional people, you use your gracie crap on me and my friends kick you in the head. I win. enough said.

Yeah I like to wrestle and I like MMA they are great SPORTS but when it comes to fighting for my protection they suck!!! You can only fight ONE-UNO-E (1) person when on the ground.

Hardcore JKD teaches you to go through the person and move on to the next if you have to. Dont get going on the gracie challenge either as it is rigged for their benefit not real fights.

I have taught my nephews how to hurt in increasing measures. The older they get the more deadly I want them to be as street fighting is no joke and is often life and death.

One-Uno-E is 1 in English-Spanish and Chinese


Kent

 
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(no login)
84.203.229.53

Usefulness

January 13 2011, 3:02 AM 

My first experience of the Martial Arts as I've perviously mention was through Judo as a kid. I have used it both in the playground and on the streets and it works. You throw any non trained person on the ground and you'll find they don't get up that quickly. But the benefits of Judo or BJJ to young kids is not so much in the physical as more in it's ability to build confidence. Also kids love to wrestle so it's time to teach them confidence, restraint and get build there bodys while doing something low risk and fun.

The Grace progam from what i have read and seen builds on this idea as well as covering dealing with school authorities etc.

Bullying do is not always physical particularly with girls so soft skills need to be thought and self reliance and self confidence must be instilled in kids from a early age.

I might point out that my on son is only 9monhts old but i have worked with kids and teens for nearly twenty years through the scouting movement here in Ireland so the above comes from my own limited expereince of dealing with bullying as well as my own experince of being bullied. So when my little tiger is old enough it will be weekly trips up the road to Jack Denis 6th Dan for some Judo before he moves onto JKD.

Thanks reading the above thoughts and ramblings
James

 
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(Login Tansau)
66.245.126.127

Re: no gropping

January 13 2011, 8:30 AM 

Kent, perhaps you missed the context of the conversation. It is about bullying, which for many kids happens on school playgrounds where their options are very limited. In every playground fight I've been it or witnessed, a little crowd rings around to watch, but I've never personally seen the "boot to the head" dynamic come into play. Grown up and out of school, different story and different context.

Also, all martial arts train for the one-against-one fight. Even the impressive randori of the Japanese arts, pitting one fighter against half a dozen, staggers the attacks one after another. Any thought that you're going to use a one-shot-one-kill approach and wipe out an entire gang of attackers is sheer martial arts fantasy fueled by way too many movies.

From my perspective, understanding the tactics used by wrestlers and grapplers prepares you to NOT go to the ground. But, the ground is always there, waiting, and if you have no training and skill there, you will probably get hurt there.

 
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(no login)
170.146.225.4

Thanks again

January 13 2011, 11:04 AM 

TanSau,

That is a reasonable approach. Even though I am a JKD/Jun Fan & Wing Chun guy, I try to stay open minded regarding other arts. It is important that we respect the pathway of others as we would have them respect ours. In fact I have started doing some Self Defens GJJ recently and my opinion of JJ has changed dramatically in the past few weeks. Had I stayed with my preconceived notions, based purely on the sport BJJ I have seen, I would never have exposed myself to another "way".

Nothing will take me away from JKD/Jun Fan and Wing Chun and in fact the guy I am learning from is a student of my Sifu and is apparently an instructor in several disciplines. It is important to note that I did not seek out this training and met the guy purely by chance (or was it?) as were helping each other out. The God in me, met the God in him and thru this I realized our interconnectedness has human beings. In these times, it is important sometimes to reflect on our base existence as brother and sisters.

Peace!

Jeff
atl

 
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Dick Jeffries
(no login)
98.65.198.159

Simple, but NOT lethal!

January 13 2011, 12:29 PM 

Hi Jeff:

I have discussed similar things with students of mine,
also. I would not teach children any lethal tactics,
such as throat strikes, groin grab, bil jee, etc.

But, girls especially need to know self-defense. In a
school situation, if a boy attacks them, go for a groin
kick. I also agree with the straight blast that, I believe,
Kent mentioned. A lot of school fights are often wrestling
in nature. So, I would recommend teaching releases from
holds, such as head locks and wrist grabs, followed by a
kick or strike. Teach them, as Sifu Davis teaches, to
try to stay on their feet, do just enough damage and then
get away. They have a right to defend themselves.

Hope this helps.

Dick

 
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Joey Braddock
(no login)
64.247.229.210

Be careful

January 13 2011, 2:59 PM 

It has been a long time since I have posted. I hope it is ok that I do. Most who know me know that I have been a school teacher for eleven years. I am not trying to brag, but I have seen just about every conceivable bullying situation (and other trauma inflicted on children) to be thought of. My comment does not concern what I am trained in. It concerns the use of force. In today's schools if you strike someone, you will be suspended (and in some schools expelled) on the first offense. It will not matter what the situation is. When you get down to second and third offenses, you are looking at time in juve. I am not saying that it is right, but I am saying that that is how it is. So just be careful what you teach kids to defend themselves with.

 
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Jason
(no login)
98.70.106.2

Re: Be careful

January 13 2011, 6:28 PM 

Discern when and how and what to train. The "Jiu Jitsu" or ground grappling is not sinister it just needs to be looked at and kept in its own perspective. If you find yourself on the ground sweep the badguy and get up. Who says you have to submit him?

Use dirty sweeps if you have to (fish hook, eye rake then use his momentum to get him off you). Don't advocate going to the ground just for the sake of it, stay up and run away. Like Dick said, learn the escapes from these wrestling/jiujitsu holds. If you are small and the bully wrestles, and is on top of you, heel kick his kidneys , fish hook him and sweep him off.

Like Jeff said absorb the self defense application of it. Don't focus on the sport stuff. If the teacher of any art is more "set" on teaching the competition stuff and that doesn't fit your goals then don't give the man your money. Discern your wants and needs.

 
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(Login Tansau)
66.245.126.127

Re: Be careful

January 14 2011, 6:32 AM 

Joey is 100% right here, unfortunately. Schools today are very different what what most of us grew up with. Many have a zero tolerance for violence or possession of a weapon (and that definition of "weapon" can range to the absurd). In most of these school systems, if you STRIKE another student (or teacher -- it DOES happen!) or cause injury by other means, there is a high probability of expulsion. A claim of self-defense is not relevant at all.

It's very important to alert school officials to any instance of bullying the moment it happens, if only to create a "paper trail" of reports that can be used in your defense should a situation escalate. Today, bullying extends off the playground into the world of text messages, voicemail and Facebook posts. Note that administrators cannot take action about behavior and actions OFF school grounds, but all can be evidence used to build a case of bullying.

The parameters are simple: you cannot strike, choke, use any form of weapon, or any form of "dirty tactic." All you're left with is simple controls, locks, arm bars and the like.

This is not limited to playgrounds, either. I have one friend who's a trauma nurse in the ER and another who's a nurse in a mental hospital. They often have to deal with patients that have to be physically controlled and subdued, but without causing injury of any kind.

Don't fall victim to your own martial prejudices and go into the "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" mindset. Different situations require different tools. Make sure you, and your kids, have the tools they need.

 
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kent
(no login)
98.126.180.226

no tansao

January 16 2011, 2:12 AM 

Tansao- No I did not miss the context of this thread. The "boot to the head" happens when they get older. I have seen it myself and I have been out of high school for 22 years.

I do not have delusions of one strike takes 10 guys out but I can take one with one hit. After I get through with the first one the other nine will re think what they really want.

In Hardcore JKD a fight should not take over 5 seconds. I train that way.

Most early school fights end up as wrestling matches but the older you get the more they do not and the more the "boot to the head"comes into play. The more the need to watch for weapons comes into play. Don't let them get close just hit them.

I am sick of the Gracie crap. If I am close enough to grab I am more than close enough to hit/kick. If they are close enough to grab then either I did something wrong or I had better had let them get that close.

Kent

 
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(Login Tansau)
66.245.126.127

Re: no tansao

January 16 2011, 7:43 AM 

>> If I am close enough to grab I am more than close enough to hit/kick.

If you are close enough to hit/kick, then you are close enough to GET hit or kicked. In this range, the fight is going to go to the person with the advantage: biggest, strongest, most aggressive, best conditioned, best trained. As long as you can always assure that you are the best trained and most conditioned fighter, this strategy should work 100%.

When people don't have the advantage, they often "cheat" with dirty tactics, bring weapons into play, or bring friends to the party.

>> If they are close enough to grab then either I did something wrong or I had better had let them get that close.

I spoke to an older, well-seasoned kung fu instructor last year and the topic of ground-fighting came up. He had a similar opinion: "If I have let my opponent take me to the ground, then I have lost the fight."

And he was seriously okay with that. He had built a self-image as a stand-up fighter, and literally viewed getting knocked down as the same thing as getting knocked out. I can't relate, but I see more and more that this idea is shared by many people.

One caveat, just as it's possible to pound a screw in with a hammer, it is also possible to use stand-up tactics to defeat a determined grappler. There are some amazing fighters out there -- Sifu Davis being an obvious example -- who's experience and training will likely trump any style of attack.

 
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Kent
(no login)
174.36.153.147

this is why grappling sucks

January 16 2011, 8:04 AM 

True if I can hit then they can too but this is Jeet Kune Do. Way of the INTERCEPTING Fist. I know my fighting range and when you are in it I will hit. Many so called martial artists are not aware of their fightING range just method. THEY ARE ALSO VERY TELEGRAPHIC AND NIT ECONOMICAL IN KICKING OR STRIKING.


When people don't have the advantage, they often "cheat" with dirty tactics, bring weapons into play, or bring friends to the party. ANOTHER REASON NOT TO GO TO THE GROUND. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FAIR FIGHT IN REALITY. THE ONLY RULE IS SURVIVE.

>> If they are close enough to grab then either I did something wrong or I had better had let them get that close.

I spoke to an older, well-seasoned kung fu instructor last year and the topic of ground-fighting came up. He had a similar opinion: "If I have let my opponent take me to the ground, then I have lost the fight."

And he was seriously okay with that. He had built a self-image as a stand-up fighter, and literally viewed getting knocked down as the same thing as getting knocked out. I can't relate, but I see more and more that this idea is shared by many people.

One caveat, just as it's possible to pound a screw in with a hammer, it is also possible to use stand-up tactics to defeat a determined grappler. There are some amazing fighters out there -- Sifu Davis being an obvious example -- who's experience and training will likely trump any style of attack. I TRAIN WITH SIFU LAMAR. BEFORE I HAD TKD AND WRESTLING BUT SINCE BEING IN HARDCORE JKD FOR 6-7 YEARS NOW MY THINKING HAS CHANGED. WHY GO TO THE GROUND WHEN I CAN SEND YOU THERE.

KENT



 
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