I've been a fan for many years - going back to Greenfield - and I feel your "Bullshit!" message deserves the widest possible audience. However, it seems to me you're preaching to the choir and missing those people who might possibly be won over by skill and science vs ignorance and superstition. Even I - no prude by a long shot - get turned off and distracted from the message when swear words outnumber intelligent discussion points. You're talented comedians and have sent me rolling off my chair many a time. But not any more.

Please think about this. Really, we need to educate an awful lot of people and in order to do that we need to figure out how to get them to listen. I submit telling them to f--- themselves every five seconds won't do it.

Different people respond to idea presentations in different ways. There are some people (like myself) that found the show influential in sparking an interest in certain issues or points of view not considered before. I think it is a bit cynical of you to say that people can't look beyond cursing to understand what P&T are saying. Besides, a lot of people don't mind cursing or like it; just listen to how most people casually talk. Their style is meant to be funny and entertaining hyperbole. I think it's funny and I'm sure others that aren't normally P&T followers are drawn to it as well. It worked for at least one person.

P&T shouldn't change who they are or how they speak their ideas to convince people, that would be insulting to the viewer and dishonest. They should just say what they think without having to patronize. If you want a different method, make your own show.

"Please think about this. Really, we need to educate an awful lot of people and in order to do that we need to figure out how to get them to listen. I submit telling them to f--- themselves every five seconds won't do it. "

I'd submit that you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. I think the boys do what they do in a fashion that they enjoy. Is bullshit about entertainment or education?

In the first few years of BS, I spent probably too much time hanging out on Showtime's BS message boards. There are essentially 3 types of people who post there:

1) people who hate Penn & Teller and everything they stand for,
2) people who have a lot of questions and would like to learn more about the subjects covered on BS, and
3) skeptics who try to shepherd the people who have a lot of questions away from the irrational arguments offered up by the people who hate Penn & Teller.

It's highly unlikely that Penn & Teller are going to convert anyone in group 1. And there's no need for them to convert anyone in group 3 ("the choir").

So, really you're talking about group 2, which is the ultimate target audience. I think people in group 2 are already questioning their beliefs before they watch BS. These are people who are just starting to look for answers and I have often wondered what direction most of them choose.

It's nice that there are skeptics on those message boards who try to answer all of group 2's questions, but it's exhausting work simply because you have to answer questions while simultaneously fending off attacks by group 1, which is why I personally don't do it anymore.

Unless you poll all the viewers, I don't know if there's any way to judge how effective Penn & Teller's message really is. I know that they do convince some people.

More like preaching to the converted. I believe there was an episode in season 4 or 5 where Penn mentioned that they might be preaching to the converted at this point. I too want their wisdom and skepticism to reach a wide audience.

The War on Porn episode is definitely an example. There were so many unnecessary snippets of porn footage thrown in for the hell of it, that they made sure the episode was doing nothing BUT preach to the converted on the subject; anybody who hates the the porn would have changed the channel, and the show accomplishes little. Too bad. That was a good one where they really made the opposition look bad.

the best episodes are the ones that are heavy on the research and sources. The old PETA and Recycling episodes were amazing because of that. The Good Ol' Days episode had way too much filler in it and very little science, and it wasn't that funny either.

"The Good Ol' Days episode had way too much filler in it and very little science, and it wasn't that funny either."

My wife and I both thought that this episode kinda sucked in comparison to what we're used to seeing. I LOVE pretty much everything Penn and Teller do, but this episode was "fair" to "good" at best. Don't get me wrong, it was still more watchable than any episode of "Jon and Kate Plus Eight", but it was below average as far as Bullshit! goes.

Now, if they were to do an episode on the polygraph...

They've clawed their way after all these years and are pretty much given a playground of a TV show to play on. Compared to what I'd say if given the chance, they're not too bad.

Dennis Leary makes many good points in his act. How many F bombs does he drop a minute? Still doesn't make him any less smart.

For every f--- they say that offends someone, there's a preacher saying something that offends me.


Just a couple of random thoughts.

It's not preaching to the choir alone. I have a friend who believed in crap like chi and supernatural forces and alternative medicine. He also has a snarky streak five miles wide. I told him how funny Bullshit! is and loaned him my entire collection of DVDs. He kept them for a few months, and every time I'd see him we'd have a nice, light-hearted discussion about the various topics in the episodes he'd just watched.

He's completely given up all his bullshit ways. No more cleansing fasts, no more juice diets, no more herbal remedies. No more believing that it was chi that helped him break that board back in his karate days. No more belief in spirits. He knows it's all bullshit now.

It's all in how you use the tools, my friends.

When do we not preach to the choir? Human nature is to seek out kindred spirits.

It's probably more of a support thing. Throughout the day most of us encounter religionists, new agers, lazy minds, and such that it's renewing to interact with those who value clarity and honesty. My experience at least.

My other point is that it's not about converting the unenlightened. Action trumps speech, always. One behaves as a rational, thoughtful and empathetic person: this is the strongest message anyone can send to the confused and fogged.

Like Libbie said, the show can be used as a tool.

If there are people in our own lives who need a good dose of critical thinking, then we shouldn't expect Penn & Teller to personally enlighten our friends and family. Frankly, my friends and family are more likely to listen to me than listen to P&T.

So, we need to shoulder most of the responsibility in delivering the skeptical point of view and then use Penn & Teller to back us up, not the other way around.

Also, it's not like we all know the same things or know everything.

I know about AA, but I didn't know about the Endangered Species Act.

I know about circumcision, but not about Recycling.

I know all about porn, but nothing about reflexology.

You can't preach to the choir about all kinds of things, and not give them new information some times.

Bullshit, may come across as "preaching to the pullpit" But for me, Its helped me clarify some subjects. (i.e. the death Penalty) In any subject, its always refreshing to find that you are not alone in your thoughts Heck, in many cases, you can discover a new prospective on your thoughts, in order to help spread the word in possibly convincing others who may be opposed to say.. the death penalty, recycling, prostitution - or what have you.

For this, Penn and Teller, I suspect, know they are "preaching to the pullpit" but maybe helping spread the word so that others can spread the word (for those who do not have Cable, or even know who Penn and Teller are)

The demands of Showtime are foremost entertainment, I think. Hence the Gen-X varnish. Don't think you can fit this show to the dimensions of public television.

No one is going to convert believers. Critical thinking is somewhat akin to spontaneous combustion: it just happens when the right conditions are present. We don't know them all. (I suspect Goleman's Emotional Intelligence could be a factor.)

The Bullshit shows may on occasion spark thought or discussion. The rest has to happen in real time with real people. The road to free thinking is an individual one.