Welcome to the Penn and Teller bulletin board, a great place to keep in touch with
fellow Penn & Teller fans or ask questions about the guys. We welcome your thoughts!
I'm not an American, but it scares me that an eminently unqualified and religious fanatic like Palin is getting so close to the white house. Has anyone read Sam Harris's article on Palin? It is chilling. http://www.newsweek.com/id/160080/page/1
On his radio show, Penn has said many times that it would be better not to vote than to vote for the lesser evil. In this case I disagree. Even if you don't agree with Obama, wouldn't it be better to vote him in than risk having Palin in the white house?
That's a pretty bad idea. Voting for the lesser of two evils is ALWAYS evil. No exceptions.
For example, voting Obama just to prevent Palin from getting in means that you are enabling Obama to be elected. That means that when (not if) he fucks up by doing stupid shit like raising taxes to pay for pretty much everything, that it's your fault.
People all too often say, "If you don't vote, you can't complain." This is stupid. What they should be saying is, "If you vote for the person who gets elected, you can't complain. It's YOUR FAULT."
The only time that people should be voting is when they feel that the person that they are voting for will actually represent them. That's the whole point.
Let me ask you this... and yes its very crude but please humor me.
You are on a train, it's ruled by a democrasy.
It's been on the same track for a long time and it's not recived mantince for as long... oh and the directio your heading is toward a big hole in the ground, now it's time to vote on direction.
You look out and you ahve the choise of going forward toward that big hole, you can turn left or right.
Now Canidate A wants to go clear ahead, it's working he say becase god told him that there is an invisabul bridge that will save you all, and dont worry about the repairs becase after the hole in the ground ther will be lots of money.
Candidate B: wants to go left, and then he wants to save the train by stoping and making exstreamly expensiv repairs and you are all going to pay for it.
Candidate C: He wants to go right, he also want to repair but think he have an idea about selling tickets, transporting cargo and get money that way.. perhaps even see if her cant coopeerate whit other trains and trade whit them.
Now Candidate A: have alot fo suporters who belive in the invisablu bridge and they have been waiting for it to get here.
Candidate B also have alot of supporters but not quite as many.
Candidate C: well he barely have any support.
Now i know that this is a over simplefication btu it's alos alittle bit as it is now, the united states is heading for a catastropy, infrignment of rights and deconstruction of the Constitution that the Republicas have started under buch is going going to get better under McCain.
Obama is perhaps not perfect in your Opinion whit you fear of taxes, but hey atleast he is going to stear you away from the fucking abyss.
Indipendents there are a few i guess, i have noting aginest you voting on them, but perhaps at a time when it makes sence, becase if you vote on them... you are handing a vote to one of the other two
Forth Not vote at all... now please humor me, if you look out the window and see graphicly that you are heading towards disaster would you REALY say
"That's a pretty bad idea. Voting for the lesser of two evils is ALWAYS evil. No exceptions."
Sometimes you have to ge thigns back on the right track before you can head in the right direction
"Let me ask you this... and yes its (sic) very crude but please humor me.
You are on a train, it's ruled by a democrasy(sic).
It's been on the same track for a long time and it's not recived(sic) mantince(sic) for as long... oh and the directio(sic) your(sic) heading is toward a big hole in the ground, now it's time to vote on direction."
"Forth Not vote at all... now please humor me, if you look out the window and see graphicly(sic) that you are heading towards disaster would you REALY(sic) say
'That's a pretty bad idea. Voting for the lesser of two evils is ALWAYS evil. No exceptions.'"
That is EXACTLY what I would say...
To hell with voting. Candidates A, B, and C are all fucking morons. If your train scenario were happening and I were on the train, while all the retards were voting on how to get screwed over, I'd pull the emergency brake on the train and put an end to the whole mess. We'd all be alive due to the actions of a single person, while committees were drafting the paperwork to decide what colour of fucking placemats to have in the dining car.
Here's another reason why not voting is awesome:
You admitted yourself that Candidates A, B, and C have flaws in their plans. Let's say that you vote for one of the candidates and he is elected. Because you voted for him, YOU are responsible for any of the flaws in his plan, because you gave him permission to carry it out. If you don't vote, you are really the only one with a right to complain.
Paul R. Welke please stay on this board I want to read more of what you have to say. I read what your responses are and I am sitting here cheering you on!! You go Guy!!! I don't agree with everything you say (who agrees with everything one person says anyway)but your logic is good.
And if there are A, B and C candidates then we must be speaking of another country 'cause in USA there is only A and B candidates that get any significant air time. I am going to continue to vote Libertarian because eventually there will be a third party candidate that will get enough votes to be President. The Dems and Repub are noticing the votes that neither of them get anyway and one day they will be able to figure out why they didn't get them.
If you are voting the lesser of two evils you are still voting FOR evil. Who would do that?
Tess,
Thanks for your kind words. Also, agreeing with me on everything is a certain sign of insanity, so way to go on that front.
I think you're doing the right thing by voting according to your principles. I do the same, or I spoil my ballot. Here in Canada, we just had a federal election with the lowest voter turnout in Canadian history. This should be a wake-up call to all the lame duck parties out there. There are enough people who couldn't even be bothered to take half an hour out of their day to vote for them... maybe they'll vote for someone who isn't a douchebag.
Low voter turnouts make me happy. It just means that people are waiting for a candidate that actually speaks to them. For all we know, it might be a libertarian...
Thank you so much Paul for helping me clarify my thoughts. For years, I have been scrambling around with reasons not to vote.. especially when it comes to a choice bettween a turd and a douchebag.
Thomas,
It sounds like all of us non-voters/spoilers should be thanking Trey and Matt. Those guys are way smarter than I'd expect from a couple of cartoonists who write fart jokes!
The author talks about the same thing Paul mentioned about if you vote for someone you're responsible for all the evil things they do in office. He takes it a step further and suggests that even if you voted for the candidate who loses it's still your fault since you participated in, and therefore supported, the system.
Much like the movie war games, the only way to win is to not play.
Paul, you said
"To hell with voting. Candidates A, B, and C are all fucking morons. If your train scenario were happening and I were on the train, while all the retards were voting on how to get screwed over, I'd pull the emergency brake on the train and put an end to the whole mess. We'd all be alive due to the actions of a single person, while committees were drafting the paperwork to decide what colour of fucking placemats to have in the dining car."
I agree with your logic and ideals, but it doesn't work in the real world. In the real world, you cannot jump out of the train, and you have to either choose to do nothing (not vote) or choose candidate A or B. Not voting or spoiling the ballot does not equate with pulling the emergency brake. To stretch the analogy further, pulling the emergency brake takes a lot of time and effort, and there simply isn't enough time to do so before the train crashes. And if I'm sure that candidate A is going to crash the train, while candidate B has a chance of saving it, I'll go with candidate B even if I don't like him.
After candidate B saves the train, I then have four years to work on the brakes. I may have lost the right to complain about candidate B (since I voted for him), but at least I'm still alive.
"I agree with your logic and ideals, but it doesn't work in the real world. In the real world, you cannot jump out of the train, and you have to either choose to do nothing (not vote) or choose candidate A or B."
Then the only ethical choice is to do nothing or spoil (unless of course you actually see a difference between A or B and are willing to let them represent you).
In the "real world", people don't vote FOR people. They vote AGAINST other people. I would loooooove to see an election where people vote out of trust rather than fear.
Penn has a radio show?
Moi shall attempt to google and find an Internet connection for it WOULD NOT be on the air-waves around these here p-arts.
Anywho, I agree 100% with Penn except that
I DO VOTE against the theocratic-oligarchy, that the American system t'were, 'tis and t'will be, by having nothing to do with the farce of 'voting'
It was most gutsy of Penn to state his views on Skippy Goebbles’ mass-media (Watch yourself, Captain – Never get on the boat).
The statement, however, WN-D"C."
BTW I was born in the U. S. of A., have always been a citizen BUT moi ain't an American; heck, I don't like being a human (nor this ass-wipe helix-ed DNA - buckyball circles would/should be soooooooo much less TWISTED)nor am proud of it sooooooo why would I be proud of bein' a smaller section? [rheTORical question]
I mean.....ir'in moi t'weren't proud of bein' an
M&M why then would I be egocentric 'bout bein' a red, blue or brown M&M?
WELL I WOULDN'T! lightening crashes here
