I'm working my way thru the Bullshit episodes available on DVD. They're great and I concur 80 - 90% on the conclusions.

One question hit me: has there been an occasion where Penn and Teller have opposed the Libertarian Party position?

Really, almost every episode opposes the Libertarian Party position of "Live and Let Live". Die Hard fans will of course deny this, but it is true.
In Penn and Teller's defense, many prominent so-called Libertarian personalities are doing this today.
It's got to the point i won't even call myself a Libertarian anymore. Couple more years of this Libertarian in-name-only business and intelorent Libertarians will have done for their cause the same as hateful Christians did for real conservatives all over the world.

Yeah, because letting people tell you bullshit is a real libertarian position. They aren't advocating laws against bullshit, they are just trying to influence popular oppinion away from it. That is libertarianism. Why should the Libertarian Party follow the example of the Christard pandering Republicans? Why should they follow the Anti-Capitalist pandering of the Democrats? They err on the side of freedom, but they will also tell you what is and is not bullshit.

My only real disagreement with them is in regaurd to the death penalty. I think that it should be used, but only if it is voluntary. That is to say that life enprisonment is the death penalty, it just takes a bit longer than old sparky. If a criminal wants to end the torture of his confinement by using old sparky why not just let him? Don't get me wrong I don't ever want to release known murderers back into society, I want them dead... Either within the next five minutes or the next 90 years, which ever the convict so happens to choose.

Maybe you could be more specific

There's no embedded comment or polemic in my query. I simply wondered if Penn & Teller had ever been at odds with a libertarian party position.

I wasn't replying to you. Mind the indents.

My apologies to the original poster for being a generalizing, stereotyping jerk in my initial response, i've actually only seen about 40 percent of the P&T episodes.
I think generalizations should probably be left to partisanesque, schism-loving, polemic-mongers like that of the left and right -- who can get away with it due to the lack of real challenge by public opinion.

I wanna say (which is probably common sense to most) that just because a person says they are something: conservative, liberal, libertarian, does not naturally mean they are what they say they are. We see phoney self-proclaimers masquerading as (insert idealogy) for all types of politically-oriented reasons today. It seems though skepticism of proclaimed Libertarians thus far has not caught up with that of other denominations. Likely imo because people so badly want a philosophical paradigm shift in the way things are being managed that they cannot handle another fraudulent-based cause and simply don't wish to look that closely into it. Especially when those they really look up to are so vocal "for" said appealing cause.

I also feel that us being skeptical of one's self-proclamation is much more logical than us defending said claim. With the potential of corruption being so real, it's my opinion that our place is to note the inconsistencies in claims and titles rather than mainly equivocate for their contradictions.

That being said, since this is directly in context in to P&T and Libertarianism, i'm going to attempt illustrate my opinion here using the help of others who identify themselves as Libertarian as well.

"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim."
-- author L. Neil Smith

It's my opinion Penn and Teller have advocated force and harm against others who did not share their/writers point of view.

"Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion and violence. Libertarians value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic and social diversity."
-- Carole Ann Rand, Board of Directors, Advocates for Self-Government

It is my opinion that perpetuating rifts between people e.g. creationists vs. evolutionists, believers (insert idealogy) and non-beleviers is not very tolerant as far as social diversity goes. I believe a real Libertarian cares more about mending polemics as opposed to widening them.

"Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power."
-- from the Preamble to the Libertarian Party Platform

I feel Penn and Teller's (if not their handler's)lack of interest in critical subjects like faith in the stock market, faith in debased currency, faith in electronic voting etc. etc thus far has actually benefited authoritarian interests greatly, moreso than libertarian interests and is much more important to expose than the distractions of faith in little green men, bigfoot and creators in the sky etc.

""Libertarianism is self-government. It combines the best of both worlds: The left leg of self-government is tolerance of others; the right leg is responsible economic behavior. The combination of both legs leads to social harmony and material abundance."
-- Marshall Fritz, Founder of the Advocates for Self-Government; President, Alliance for the Separation of School and State

Even though in the end P&T often sneaks in the caveat that we shouldn't take this action or that against those they don't agree with, the body of their proselytizing usually ends up being extremely intolerant of others. They also have not spoken out for real responsible economic behavior like simply living within one's means (that i am aware of anyway) which most non-profit Libertarians i have seen are all for.
Regardless of what i may have missed, they do not at all remind me of real Libertarians or at least lack a real "harmony" of Libertarianism such as explained there.

Since my original posting I've reflected on the range of response.

First, I find the shows engaging and would call myself a fan. We should all note that the primary purpose is entertainment. Showtime being a business, information comes second. Balance, I think, is sometimes lost.

Examples, from my perspective, would include some statements on the endangered species act, the Dali Lama, gun control. All are most certainly open to critical examination. But protection of endangered species is not total bullshit, the Dali Lama is not responsible for abuses by his predecessors, and refutation of all firearm control leaves the question of definitions: ok to own a flame thrower, phosphorus grenade, personal thermo-nuclear device etc.

Tackling issues such as these in a 30-minute deconstructive blast leaves a lot of loose ends. Libertarian thinking--as I idealize it--is mostly about clearing the intellectual brush so we can achieve some focus on issues and hopefully approach consensus, with liberty being the governing value.

Given time and format limitations I think Penn & Teller are pretty damn good at what they present, and get people thinking in the process.

One other thing and I'll cease. The overarching theme of the shows is skepticism. I'd like to see this thematized some way in a future show. There's a lot of deception and hubris in the world, and aggressive questioning is in order.

But where do we anchor? Ideology and religion are mostly pathological, and of no real help. Is homo sapiens a failed species, driven only by DNA permutation? My point here being the boundry between healthy skepticism and cynicism--I struggle with this.

A true Libertarian stance is pushing a person down a flight of stairs for having the wrong reading materials.
Rumor has it too, that in the revised 10th Edition of the parties' manifesto (tries to contain the excitement) we will be told to cut the brake lines on anyone owning an American Constitution. Looking forward to that one.

Dr. Demento is a "Libbie" and he refused to play moi's "The Lion Farts Tonight' even though it totally kicked-ass on the Mp3.com Parody Chart over every other song, listed as a Parody at original Mp3.com, that he did play.
I guess it's just one of moi's lill' parodies that is TOO controversial.
Fart sound here

Ahhhhh, that's Showism.

Stay on groovin'
(Gad, it's time for some corn flakes and me pill)
safari,
Tor Hershmane

"A true Libertarian stance is pushing a person down a flight of stairs for having the wrong reading materials."

You're kidding right? Above all other things, libertarians are against the initiation of force and for the protection of private property.

Pushing someone down a flight of stairs is the epitome of an initiation of force.

Now, the original poster asked if the guys ever went against the LIBERTARIAN PARTY position. I'm assuming that they have, but that is only because the American Libertarian Party is really fucked up and full of people who aren't actual libertarians. Hell, their Presidential candidate is an ex-Republican douchebag who voted to send troops to Iraq and in favour of the PATRIOT ACT.

As far as I can tell, Penn and Teller have never strayed from libertarian ideals. Too bad the same cant be said for the Libertarian Party...

Cheers,
Paul

9/11 truther episode reference there. And yes, there are far more kooks in the libertarian Party than there are skeptics. The show is just trying to change public opinion, not outlaw kookery. (If you want that read James Randi's opinions on the subject.)

That's right. That reference to pushing people down the stairs is from the Conspiracy Theory episode! That anonymous guy must be a RED trying to make trouble for us real libertarians. We need to outcast that boy!