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So I am new here I hope this give me at least a few second of cover while I spew forth on a subject which is has to be old hat to all of the long timers on this board. But ever since I heard Penn on this I believe I have wanted to ask him how he survives knowing that there is no God. Sometime I wish I could believe in some way that there is a Supreme Being guiding event to the ultimate end. But I dont and I the pressure just gets to me sometimes knowing that this is my one shot at life and I am nowhere near happy with how I did. Couldnt I just get a do over? You know reincarnation; NO I know that is just another lie to make people O.K. with failure. I am real down and without the lie of faith its real hard to get back-up. So just on the off chance HEY PENN EXCUSE ME. I mean. MR. JILLETTE how do you do it I heard what you said on NPRs This I Believe but that just made it seem like you knew you life was hard because you knew all of the good or bad was yours to create. I still need to know. Once you no long have the crutch of faith to pull you up how do you not get depressed and just want to quit when the world is as screwed up as it is?
Reality is the only word in the English language that should always be in quotes.
Being of the Atheist variety myself (me and the hubby are both off the god wagon) maybe if I shed some light from my perspective, it might help.
Or not. Here goes.
When I became a 'godless heathen', as Grampy would of called me, it wasn't what I would call a 'losing of faith', but more a 'release from bondage'. I spent most of my life in fear of not being good enough to please some invisible being, or blaming myself for whatever bad things happened to me and mine.
I told a lie, the dog gets hit by a car.
I didn't listen to my parents enough, Dad drank more.
I was fat because I was a glutton, not because I had a undiagnosed disease that I still fight with today (literally, the procedure I just went through this week was because of it).
Religion, in most forms, is used as a form of control. Leaders use it to control followers. Parents use it to control children. Men use it to control women (I would like to say 'used' in that sentence, but I can't).
When I free myself from the self-loathing and control of religion, I freed myself to become the woman I am today.
I no longer worry and fear. I live my life without wondering how this will affect me after death. Because there is nothing after death. Which means Life is all we really have. And I have no problem with that. I live it as hard and loud and fun as I can.
I don't need the fear of punishment to be a good person. I'm a good person (or try to be) because that's what one should be. It's not like the moment I realized there's no god I ran out and pillaged a village and coveted a bunch of crap.
But I'm starting to ramble, as I'm known to do.
Becoming an Atheist is not sad ending. It's an ending of one's ties to a form of self-imposed ignorance. It's a beginning of understanding the world around you without constriction, without control, without fear.
I have faith. Just not in things that I was told too 'just because'. I have faith in humankind. I have faith in science, medicine and knowledge. I have faith in myself, in those I love and in Love itself. We have millions of things to have faith in, we don't need imaginary things.
I don't expect to get a fair shake on this board ... but good golly, faith in humankind alone? Like the fine, mature works of P&T? HA. Make me laugh .... If this isn't the prime example of what mankind becomes when full of rage, sin, deceit, greed .... what is?
I would offer that rage, sin, greed, and deceit are to be found within the hallowed halls of religion as much if not more than without. Religion, has been and in many cases continues to be the single impetus behind some of the most devastating and morally repugnant acts that humans can imagine. A small list if you like:
The Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials
The Crusades
9/11
The list wouldn't fit inside an edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Now that's not to say that atheists haven't committed their share of atrocities (Communist states are atheist by nature) but you have to stand in awe of the influence of religion across the ages upon countless peoples that were exploited, abused, and murdered in the name of god. Amoral Atheists are solidly in the minority.
With that said, it doesn't seem right to blame the ills of society on a lack of religion. Moreover, it's at blatant disregard for personal responsibility when you blame someone's shortcomings on a lack of spiritual conviction. People, religious or not, do some pretty silly and stupid things...sometimes very evil things. Religion isn't the common denominator...it isn't even part of the equation. The only commonality is that we are human and we aren't perfect.
If you do not have faith in humankind, how could you have faith in the 'being' that 'created' it?
To have faith in humankind is to have faith in yourself. To have faith in those who love you. Those that pledge to care for you and aid you when it's needed.
If you're in the hospital, do you doubt how well the doctors will care for you? I haven't.
That, my friend, is faith. And I have so much I don't need to make something up to believe in.
There is a world full of pleasure to enjoy. There's work, family, books, movies, food, music, sunshine (sometimes, ha), cups of tea, kitties! Everything that HeyRed said and more.
I look at it this way. We all die. There is nothing at all we can do about that. Just try to enjoy yourself while respecting other people while you're here.
Being a nonbeliever (I prefer that to "atheist") doesn't mean rejection of meaning, beauty or wonder for that matter. It just means you've come to a point where middle eastern sky god dogma doesn't cut it.
Evangelicals are a sad, self-defeating lot prone to dependency and obsession-compulsion. Sensing this doesn't require you to be narrow or to reject depth.
Read, explore. We live in a quantum universe that is wilder and stranger than we will ever know. Challenging, but not depressing.
I don't find atheism to be a hard road at all. I don't think belief or non-belief in a god is ever the root cause of someone's happiness or unhappiness -- or the ability or inability to be happy.
Atheists may not use god as a source of hope, but many of us find other things in this universe to inspire us and fill life with meaning.
You know that sappy "Footsteps in the Sand" story? There are two sets of footsteps in the sand, yours and god's, and when things get tough there's only one set of footsteps. The person in the story interprets that as god abandoning them, but god says that the one set of footsteps were his when he carried you through the hard times.
I have my own version of that:
There are two sets of footsteps in the sand. Yours and Life's. When times get bad, you fall down. Then Life stands there and kicks you (and just keeps kicking) until you get up and start moving forward again.
You can lie there as long as you choose, feeling sorry for yourself and acting like a martyr, just getting kicked; or you can stand up and take control of your life.
Even if you don't think you can stand up on your own, usually there's a person (a real live person) who is willing to hold out a hand and help you up. Sometimes it's someone you know or it could be a stranger. All you have to do is actually ask for help. A lot of people are afraid to ask for that help or accept it when it's spontaneously offered. I've heard all sorts of excuses: I don't want to impose, Nobody really cares about me, My problems are too big to solve, I'm a loser so what's the point in even trying, I'm afraid they'll put me on antidepressants, I don't want to bring you down, I don't want to worry you...
Chances are you're already worrying someone if you can't find any reasons to be happy.
There is no other way to respond to this except you are 100% selfish and lazy. not to mention a cheap, manipulative passive/aggressive coward. Your take on his self proclaimed atheism is based purely on your prospective - not his. You are projecting your own angst, then attempting to turn yourself into a victim. How christian of you.
hile I am not speaking for him, I am speaking for me. I am 1000000% fine with knowing there is no god (except myself - I create my own joy and despair) I can only guess that Mr. Gillette feels the same way, but It would only be a guess. if he says he is happy with his life, why not take it at face value? That is the only way anyone can interpret anyone else's prospective on their own view of the universe.
Being an atheist is a relief for me, to be honest. It means that I don't have to worry about someday having to meet the guy who is responsible for leprosy, harlequin babies (don't google it), and AIDS.
(and, it goes without saying, suffer eternally for not being willing to kiss his ass)
I understand what you're all saying about all of this but bottom line: If you're right, you die and that's the end of it. If Evangelical's are right, you die, and spend an eternity in hell- it's a 50/50 chance, and that's a pretty risky chance to take.
Anonymous,
You are way off on your odds. A 50/50 chance is a coin toss, where the laws of physics show us that each possibility (heads or tails) are equally likely of occurring.
The laws of nature have very different odds regarding some things. For example, there is not a 50/50 chance that I will either spontaneously combust vs the chance that nothing will happen to me. To show how the laws of nature would have to blatantly violated for the Evangelicals to be right, consider this far more realistic coin toss scenario:
After you die, you rot: Heads
You rot after you die: Tails
The evangelicals are right: The coin comes to rest on it's edge after being tossed into a lake, and stays on the surface of the water. Someone moves it under a rock. Three days later, the coin isn't there, but some people swear that they saw it float up into the sky.
Now, if you can show me a coin toss with THAT outcome, you may be on to something. I'm guessing that it doesn't happen 50% of the time though...
The idea that you should believe in a god simply to hedge your bets is cowardly.
If I'm going to burn in hell because some god is angry for my lack of belief, then that's not a god I want to worship in the first place. That's not a god who is even worthy of worshiping.
I would never make someone suffer for not worshiping me. (The reality is I tend to make people suffer when they do put me on a pedestal just to teach them a lesson in self-sufficiency.) Therefore, I'm nicer than god and god should worship me instead. Hey, I didn't burst into flames writing that.
You're essentially referring to Pascal's Wager which basically stated that believing in god was preferable to atheism simply because the risk of being wrong was too great. In Pascal's mind it was better to believe and be wrong then not to believe and be wrong. It's a compelling argument...
If it wasn't bullshit. To wager on the existence of god isn't gonna get you anywhere in either case. Dogmatically, just about every major soteriological religion says that belief, in and of itself, is not enough for salvation. You have to buy it hook, line, and sinker or not at all. If you're going to believe in god it would seem to me that something as superficial as a philosophical wager is more a comfort for those struggling with oblivion and not a foundation for religious conviction.
Also, if you're willing to accept such a wager, you are by extension, also accepting the 50/50 odds that god does not exist. Again, not a solid foundation for faith in some mysterious afterlife. It's a mental plaything and nothing more.
Either way, whether you decide to believe in god or not, it has to be done with some measure of real conviction. He either exists or he doesn't and Pascal's Wager simply allows you to sit on the fence.
It is easy to remove the mind from harping on the lost illusion of immortality. The disciplined intellect fears nothing and craves no sugar-plum at the day's end, but is content to accept life and serve society as best it may. Personally I would not care for immortality in the least. There is nothing better than oblivion, since in oblivion there is no wish unfulfilled. We had it before we were born, yet did not complain. Shall we whine because we know it will return? It is Elysium enough for me, at any rate.
-- H P Lovecraft, In Defence of Dagon (1921), quoted from S T Joshi, Atheism: A Reader, p. 107
We all know that any emotional bias -- irrespective of truth or falsity -- can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value.... If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do not follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction.
-- H P Lovecraft, letter to Maurice W Moe, 3 August 1931, in August Derleth and Donald Wandrei, ed., Selected Letters 1929-1931 (1971), pp. 390-91, quoted from S T Joshi, ed., "Introduction," Atheism: A Reader, p. 17
No one likes to think they have failed or made the wrong decisions so it is tempting to wish there was someone who could make everything alright, or even someone to blame it all on, like God. However, would that not also make God responsible for everything that has gone right? To believe that does oneself a great injustice. When people overcome a difficult period in their lives they are inclined to thank God, as if the idea that they triumphed through their own strength and determination is absurd. Practical support from family and friends really can help God is not on the other end of the phone when you need to talk, God will not sit up all night holding your hand when you feel bad, nor will he hold back your hair while you are throwing up into the toilet. If you overcome some hardship in your life, congratulate yourself before you thank some god for your success. YOU were suffering, YOU took action, YOU fought, and YOU won. YOU. Not God. YOU were strong. Give yourself some credit.
I too have made decisions I regret. At times I am discouraged and full of doubt, but at least the choice and the power to change is in my hands and nobody elses. I tried the God thing. It didnt help. I guess my heart wasnt in it because my head knew it is absurd. This world was not created by supernatural forces but is the result of an astonishingly long string of cosmic happy chances. Life beat the astronomical odds against it to thrive as it does today in all its complexities. That, to me, is much more breathtaking and inspiring than the notion that we are here at the whim of some stroppy deity. If you need faith, try having faith in the world around you. Its always good for a surprise.
Atheism can be hard, but also enlightening and often very rewarding.
Keep in mind if their was only one religion or no religion you could say 50/50. But there are thousands of religions who all say they are right and only they will go to heaven. So you will have to factor the percentage of you religion against the others into you 50% of mutually exclusive religions. Something like 16% of the wolds people are Catholics. So the Catholics wager is really 8/92 if my math is correct you have an 8% chance of being right if you think just believing in something because you are told to means anything.
"Keep in mind if their was only one religion or no religion you could say 50/50."
This is absolutely not true. That's like saying that because there are two possible outcomes when buying a lottery ticket, namely "winning" or "not winning", that you have a 50/50 shot of winning.
The fact that there are two possible outcomes does not mean that they are equally likely.
You are correct i don't actuality think it is 50/50. I was just trying to put my reply into context and stay true to the rules of the wager without saying their is no god. The wager is flawed in more ways then just the statistical probability of god. I was assuming the poster believes in god and my explanation i think shows it is a week wager even if you are a believer. If you are not a believer it is just silly any way you look at it.
But i love you explanation why it isn't 50/50 and will use that myself in the future.
Quit focusing on the mistakes you've made or how much the world sucks. Do something, anything, else.
I know that answer is a bland slap in the face when you've been trying to contemplate the complexities of the existence or lack thereof of deities, and I don't mean to be insulting in anyway, but there it is. Let me explain where I'm coming from.
My half sister, just three years older than I, did not lead the best life and brought about her own end. As I was watching her, herhooked up to life support, I thought, if she could breathe on her own, just once, and come back, she would have a second chance. But she didn't, so she couldn't take that chance. What has always stuck with me since that horrid day watching her slip away, is that for as long as I am breathing I have a chance to fix something, make something better, do something over, or start over again, whether here or elsewhere.
I can made a difference in my own life with my choices, in society with my work, in my family's and friends' lives in the time I spend with them. What I'm doing, right now, with every breath, means more to me than any possibility of life after death. What's done is done, and I serve no one, especially myself, dwelling on it.
One last thing: you CAN think yourself into depression. I'm not kidding here. You can sit and think and starve your brain until it's left with nothing but to eat itself. Feed your head: exercise, study a new subject, do something productiveparticularly if it's creative, . . . anything.
