And I'm tired of feeling like I'm the only one paying attention.

Maybe you can create a proof that there's some randomness in math (omega set nonsense), and maybe you can point to the very edges of quantum physics and deny any sort of hidden variables - sure, I've read books!

But when you really get down to it, the case for determinism is OVERWHELMING. To even make a case you have to make some deterministic assumptions! Logic, Science, Facts! All of these things are based on the expectation that stuff is real, it happens for REASONS and it will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. It's not hard! If that's the case, and you are stuff, then you part of a deterministic system.

But no! That's crazy! People are driven to argue that isn't true! It's unimportant and unproovable!

Our society is built to function lubed by the ignorant bullshit of free will, no one dares say otherwise! Speak up about determinism and just see what kinda great backlash you get. Even atheists will be up in arms to defend their god,err, "given" will to their own sacred choices!

It's everywhere!

Is it that crazy to think maybe we can learn to live with an understanding of the world that doesn't make each an every one of us an integral mover of reality - what with our powerful magical choices and all? Is it crazy to think that this free will nonsense is the root of a lot of evil religions and out modded societal control schemes?

I think it's time for society to wake up and get with the program! You guys wanna help me out?


Anyone wanna argue?

A. Please define "free will".

B. Please define "us/we/you".

Maybe then we can argue about whether or not one of those things has the other. But right now you are saying "A does not have B!" without saying what either of those things is.

Even religion can't adequately sort out it's dogma regarding free will and Determinism. For the Christians this debate centered around the Calvinists which had an extreme view of Determinism. They were a group during the Protestant Reformation which believed that everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, was determined by god's divine plan...including your own salvation. This flew in the face of the Catholic church which has always maintained a doctrine of faith coupled with works as the key to salvation. There were other groups throughout the centuries that had varying views with respect to free will but the Calvinists were at the top of the heap.

There is a single, effective counter-argument that can be made to Determinism: Cause and Effect.

Determinism, if followed to its natural conclusion, insists that all actions and outcomes since the beginning of time have followed as the result of divine will. You can first begin with the idea that god has pre-ordained "X" to occur. Now "X" can be anything. "X" can be your eternal salvation or it can be what you have for lunch today...doesn't matter. The reason it doesn't matter is that once you accept "X" has been willed by god and that you have absolutely no control over "X" then you MUST by extension abandon the doctrine of free will. Determinism and free will are completely and utterly mutually exclusive. You cannot have both...not even a little bit.

Some religions will try to have their cake and eat it too. They claim some events as divine will (such as the coming of the Christ) and as such these events are immutable and unstoppable. Then they turn around and try to say you have free will. Really? Mary chose to be the virgin mother? No of course not they say...but then every other event in her life that might have brought her to that point must then be attributed to Determinism and not free will. If Mary does not have free will than neither do we goes the argument. Calvin at least had the stones to take Determinism to its natural and inevitable conclusion...and he stuck by his belief.

Now back to Cause and Effect. If I stub my toe against a table leg, it will hurt. If I hurry through the house as I pass by the table, I will stub my toe. If I am late going to work, I will hurry through the house etc etc ad nauseum. Now you could make the argument that all those events were willed by god and I could just as easily argue that those events take place as a result of cause and effect...ergo I do "A" and "B" is the result. "A" can be a multitude of possibilities and so it follows that "B" can be a multitude of possibilities. "A" cannot be a multitude of possibilities if "B" is a single immutable event. "A" must follow a very specific set of actions in order that "B" becomes an immutable event. Therefore, if "B" is an immutable event so must "A" be...so must all "A" be until the beginning of time.

So in order to really intellectually absorb Determinism, you must come to grips with the fact that all that supposed decision making you go through every day of your life isn't making a bit of difference. Whether you decide to have french fries or tater tots with your hamburger is already a mute argument. It doesn't count....it never did. I could decide tomorrow to sit on my ass and do absolutely nothing until I starve, dehydrate and die. And somebody who believes in Determinism is gonna point to that and say it was god's will. Really?

Do you see the intrinsic flaw with Determinism yet? It means everything we do has been pre-ordained. Everything from stubbing your toe to the Holocaust to child pedophilia to having tater tots with your hamburger. If you really believe in Determinism then you must by extension accept all of these things as divine will. God caused the Holocaust to happen? Now you run into the famous Problem of Evil. That's a whole other argument.

So in conclusion I will invoke Occam's Razor: Which is more probable, that ALL the events since the beginning of time were pre-ordained by an omnipotent god or that the universe is built on the simple Aristotlian principle of cause and effect?

Determinism doesn't have anything to do with religion or divine will. Determinism is an extension of cause and effect. It would be interesting to do an episode of Bullshit on free-will, possibly the most widely believed myth that is disproved by science.