I've always hated sensationlism but, it does work!!! I practice both Wing Chun and Kali and I use both types of drills for sensitivity training. I find value in both because each has its place in training for real encounters. I'm just curious what everyone out there thinks? Opinions?
Chief Abbot
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Chi-Sao is good for touch sensitivity, sticking and trapping but if not done with the internal aspects for generating power to hit, then it is useless for teaching someone to strike.
Hubud is good because it doesn't rely on internal energy for generating striking power and it is an arm conditioning drill as well but is not a drill for teaching sticking.
The pick of the two:
Hubud because it's more fight oriented and for beginners or inexperienced fighters it's more important to be able to flow and hit than to trap.
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Hubud would be my choice for those who wanted to learn to defend themselves quickly.
Since I teach a Combat Fighting System and not a martial art I would recommend hubud to individuals first because hubud is more combat orientated and easy to learn. Then later in their training, chi-sao to gain a higher level of touch sensitivity.
In teaching, my goal is to get every student combat ready within days and weeks. To do this I must give them techniques that are natural, easily learned and combat effective. Even though I don't personally teach hubud, I do teach techniques that are in hubud.
Hubud will teach you (1) how to flow in a short period of time (2) how to block, parry and strike in a flowing motion (3) is a good arm and body conditioning drill and (4) is easily and quickly learned.
It is possible to apply hubud right away in a fight after only one class.
In conclusion I would like to say if you have the opportunity to learn hubud, do so, you won't regret it!
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I think both have their place. True, hubud conditions the arms, but I like chi sao because you remain in more constant contact with the other guy's arms. Also, done properly, it teaches you to keep the energy going forward.
However, I disagree that chi sao takes any special use of chi or chigong. All it takes is some sensitivity.
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Wing Chun is a system that uses chi to generate power! If your taught it without knowing or understanding how to use chi, then your studying in vain!
(1) Chi sao is often mistaken for a flesh sensitivity drill by low level practioners who never obtained the higher levels, in fact it is an energy sensitivity drill designed to teach you to read your opponents chi. ***hence the name CHI sao***
(2) Chi sao's close quarter hitting techniques do NOT work if internal energy (chi) is not applied. How do you think a small woman can generate enough power to take down a larger and stronger man if not using internal energy (chi). ***did we forget that the person who is responsible for the system of Wing Chun was a woman*** SORRY IT WASN'T BRUCE!
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Any martial art, taught properly, uses both internal and external power. That's a given. But the energy use in chi sao is not necessarily chi. It is a pressure sensitivity to the opponent's kinetic energy.
It also requires a sense of the other guy's structure, being able to tell how he is positioned, where his weight is, how his spine is aligned, etc. with just a touch.
One of my Wing Chun/Tai Chi sifus could do this with push hands or sticky hands. There's nothing supernatural about it.
As far as close quarters or short power being dependent on chi, wrong again. It's simply good physics and good biomechanics. For example, when Bruce Lee did his one-inch punch, his fist might only have travelled a couple of inches, but so did his wrist, his elbow, his shoulder, his waist, his hips and even his legs. There's a whole lot of motion going on there.
In a nutshell, Bruce's one-inch punch worked because he knew how to put his full 130 lbs behind the punch. It takes a good deal of coordination, but nothing that can't be done.
And yes, I'm well aware that Bruce Lee didn't found Wing Chun. But there are many schools of thought about the origin of the art. Some martial historians suspect that Ng Mui and her student, Yim Wing Chun, were the product of a disinformation campaign against the Manchus.
The Manchus were trying to keep native Chinese from learning Kung Fu, for fear the Chinese would eventually overthrow the Chings. By creating a fictional founder, you could keep the Chings and their spies looking in the wrong places when searching for revolutionaries and their trainers.
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Oh non-believers, I've heard it all before! You people just can't open your mind to the truth. The Chinese would not have invented the word CHI for internal energy (American Words) if it was all correct body alignment, weight distribution and perfect technique! American scientist have found the chi channels in the body.(go to your library and look it up) They call it EMC= Electrical Magnetic Current.
No all martial arts are not taught internal! The one inch punch is not an internal strike, but is a strike done with tendon alignment, body weight distribution and correct punching. As for touch sensitivity it is a great skill and worth knowing but how do you think the masters can do and feel the way they can? (They won't tell you) I have personally known Chinese masters that I discussed Chi with lie to their student and tell them it didn't exist as not to be thought of as a wacko to their American students. When I asked why not tell them the truth, he said it doesn't matter they will never be able to understand it or perform it so it would only confuse them and hinder their training.
I have demonstrated on many occasions the realism of Chi with 400 pound man and immovable body. No matter how you you stand, body alignment or perfect technique you weigh what you weigh. If someone has the strength to lift your body weight off the ground and does so numerous times no matter how you stand and then you use chi and to their surprise they can't budge you! Your weight seems to have gone from 165 pounds to an immeasurable weight, you are just stuck to the floor. That my friend is Chi! I have demonstrated as well as taught 400 pound man to the Abbot of this site and he can confirm it's authenticity.
The Chinese are a very secret group of people and the Martial Art's Masters are the worst, always afraid some one will use it improperly or if their secret technique gets out and was learned by their foe then they could easily be beaten has caused them to hide or not transmit certain high level training and that was the internal most of the time.
The bottom line is Wing Chun needs to be done with Internal Energy (Chi). If any one dismisses it or doesn't believe, then fine their only cheating themselves! That's all I have to say on that subject, PERIOD.
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I never said I didn't believe in chi. All I'm saying is that you've obviously attached a supernatural explaination to something that is very scientific. You also seem to believe that proper development of the chi will help you exceed the natural limits of the human mind and body.
It can't. It will help you push those limits, but you can never exceed them.
In my 26 years in the arts, I've seen people who could take blows with baseball bats and staves. At 20, I was an avid bodybuilder and multiple black belt holder. I punched one of my tai chi sifus in the stomach and he felt nothing. For me, it was like punching a trampoline.
This guy was no muscleman or bodybuilder. He looked exactly what you'd expect a middle-aged college microbioligy professor would look like, which is what he was.
He later demonstrated that he could pull his testicles back into his body by force of will. Laugh all you want, but I checked and there was nothing but an empty scrotum.
In include qigong in my own practices. I see a definite improvement in my own health, vitality and ability to recover from injury. I know when I slack off, I see a recurrance of all types of health problems.
But I can also say, based on nearly seven years of practice with Wing Chun, and nearly 16 years with Tai Chi, that there is little, if anything, supernatural about chi sao or tui shou.
It's just good physics and sensitivity.
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I have only been doing wing chun for about seven months so I don't have much experience with chi-sao and I know nothing about hubud lubud but from my experiences with chi-sao I would have to agree with the KungFuCowboy. I believe that you don't have to practice chi-sao with chi energy. Correct body structure and proper movement are all that the average joe needs. Unless you plan on becoming a master most people will never need to proceed to that high a level of chi-sao. Chi-sao teaches contact sensitivity. You feel what your opponents energy(not chi) is doing and you react accordingly to it. If your body structure is correct and you are moving properly that should be plenty to put your opponent down. It is great to practice it with chi-energy but hardly a waste of time without it. My teacher leans more towards the internal side of wing chun but right now we(the students) are still trying to gain a better understanding of chi-sao. We are doing a harder type of chi-sao until we get used to it. I can only speak for myself but after my very first class with my teacher I felt very confident about defending myself using what I had been taught.
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"Chi sau" is Cantonese. "Chi" in Cantonese means
"clinging" or "sticking". The "chi" as in internal
energy is Mandarin. It's corresponding Cantonese
equivalent is "hei". "Chi gong" is Mandarin, "hei gung"
is the same thing in Cantonese. Pesky languages. If
you only have a smidge, it's easy to get things
confused ;)To put it bluntly, it's chi sau, not
hei sau.
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Wow, I have learnt me sumpen very interesting! You must be a linguistics major or something, so please enlighten this dumb ol Florida boy one more time by explaining the Cantonese spelled style Tai-Chi. Which is an internal style devoted to the formation of internal energy (Electrical Magnetic Current) and not to sticking. Let me try and take a stab in the dark, please bare with my ignorance as I say maybe it has become a standardization to spell CHI in English to mean internal energy. Are the two pronounced the same but spelled differently?
Well I have read many books, articles and spoken to Chinese speaking masters (Cantonese, mandarin and others) and have seen it spelled CHI when referring to internal energy. Now this is just my ignorance showing again but pick up a Chinese internal art's magazine and you will see it spelled CHI or QI and I have yet to see it spelled HEI although I have seen a Korean master spell his name this way Hei Il Choi.
As I am no linguistics major or speak any Chinese languages, I must leave all that up to you college edumucated fellers!
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"Chi" as in tai chi may now be commonly used across Cantonese and Mandarin, and in "chi gong" as well, to mean internal energy for those words. Like Coca-Cola.
But many years ago, when "chi sau" was coined for the arm clinging exercise, "hei gung" meant internal energy, and "chi sau" meant arm-clinging.
The clincher? The "chi" in "chi sau" is NOT the same character as the Mandarin "chi" in "tai chi" or "chi kung". Check for yourself. No matter how much people confuse different characters because their romanizations sound similar, the characters always clear things up
Mike
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