Do you know what ideology is? It’s a mean of making people think and live the way they are brought round to be the right way. If you are attentive enough you will see it in any newspaper, hear on the radio or TV. It is called a sate policy and no government would manage without it. However sometimes it comes to excess: for example an extremist regime doing harm to a society, damaging its mental health. We can see it in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Kosovo. A group of extremists imposing their will and mad rules on the population, propagating Islamic extremism. In Afghanistan they destroy cultural sights, prohibit TV and education for girls. It seems that Maskhadov’s supporters in Chechnya decided to follow into the footsteps of the talibani leadership and live up to the ill faith of bin Laden’s adherents. Internationally, however, they care about their image. The latest efforts of Chechen field-commanders Basaev and Khattab, known for their cruelty in treating their own countrymen, ordered to make a film about an “Islamic state” in Chechnya. A small mountainous district with few villages in it occupied by the extremists, will be presented as the major part of the Chechen republic, with Ichkerian flags and other trappings on the walls and roofs of the houses. Peaceful villagers, women, playing children - an absolute idyll, isn’t it? A fairy-tail for everybody to be convinced that there is nothing wrong with the Chechen Wahhabit regime, no atrocities are committed against civilians by the militants, everything is absolutely peaceful there and to lay the whole blame for the present situation on the Russians. Well, after the recent terrorist acts in D.C. and New York and the Chechen militants’ supportive statements they may show this film to the marines.

Adams  from IP address 211.61.251.241 wrote
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The recent terrorist attacks in New York and D.C. have supplanted all other topics from the political agenda. No wonder that the previously much discussed Chechen issue is kept at low profile. The present PACE cession will hardly bring any breakthrough in that sphere. And the main obstacle seen is that the leader of Chechen Islamic extremists Maskhadov, cowed by hawks in his circle - Basaev and Khattab - has declined the very idea of political settlement and accused PACE of doing more harm than good to the Chechen people. Against the background Moscow can be criticized for anything except for the readiness for peace talks with the extremists.

They are going to show that movie to an audience of dead Russian soldiers

One very important note: The killings in Kosovo were not started by Albanian terrorists - KLA, as there was no KLA before 1996. The violence in Kosovo started in 1988 when Milosevic came to power and there were Serbian paramilitary (aka terrorist) groups active (Tigers of Arkan). So before you start talking about Islamic terrorism and Muslims, you should also know that Muslims are not the only terrorists around, and that people of other religions have comitted horrible crimes against civilians, and Muslims were victims themselves of such killings both in Bosnia and Kosovo. FYI

Blaz, why are you lying? Arkan (or any other Serb paramilitaries) had not even set foot in Kosovo until 1998, after the creation of the KLA. Your claim that the violence in Kosovo was not started by the Albanians proves that you are either extremely misinformed or you're lying on purpose. It was the KLA who started the violence in Kosovo by bombing police stations, harassing Serbs and even moderate Albanians, causing civil unrest, etc, in their quest for independence. Arkan didn't go into Kosovo until 1998.

He is a fine guy, but the history he is familiar with starts in 1996. It's like starting with WTC911 and not with the destructions of progressive democracy in Iran and Afghanistan by Washington operatives.

The UCK started in 1993, months after Bush had given the green light.

Ethnic cleansing of the Slavs in Kosovo started in the 1960's, not because the Albanians were bad, but because the Albanian police took no action against stonings and beatings of Slavs. Neighbors' arguments degenerated into a culture in which it was cool to beat Serbs. In Kosovo they were treated like the Slovenians were under fascism.

By the way, in Macedonia the shoe has been on the other foot. That's why in 1997, the West was encouraging Albanians to kill Slavs in Kosovo, while it encouraged Slavs to kill Albanians in Macedonia.

Well it's you saying that I am lying, while I know very well what I talk about. Certain things are very clear, no matter how much you dislike those facts. Violence in Kosovo did not start with KLA, but with the brutality of Serb police forces and later paramilitary forces of Arkan that killed civilians, raped women, burnt down houses of Albanians and destroyed a great number of Mosques. Only in Pec they destroyed all the mosques, including the one fomr the 15th century, one of the oldest in that area. All facts Jatin, no lies. In Kosovo Arkan, in Bosnia Mladic, Karadzic, in Croatia Martic. All paramilitary, terrorist like groups with hired criminials, escaped convicts (proven), the worst kind of people let out to the their "job". Now I know many people have a hard time dealing with those facts, but so it is. Ofcourse we had KLA terrorists, we had Croats responsible for war crimes against Serbs and the ethnic cleansing in Croatia, or the likes of Naser Oric killing Serbs in Bosnia. I do ackowledge all those facts, but I acknowledge them ALL, not just those that you might find suitable. As do many many people on FR Jatin, that have turned the Balkans threads into Serb-only favorizing, Arkan glorifying (how many times I heard Arkan being called a hero there) etc etc...

Now is there something you wanted to tell me?

>> Well it's you saying that I am lying, while I know very well what I talk about. <<

No you don't.


>> Certain things are very clear, no matter how much you dislike those facts. <<

Now you're telling me it's a fact that Arkan's paramilitaries were in Kosovo before the KLA was created? That's a lie. The KLA was created before Arkan or any paramilitaries went into Kosovo.


>> Violence in Kosovo did not start with KLA <<

Yes it did, the KLA is 100% to blame for starting the violence in Kosovo. No KLA, no violence. Simple as that. Did you actually expect the police to do nothing while the KLA blew up police stations and harassed the people?


>> but with the brutality of Serb police forces <<

Here's news for you, Blaz: The police force in Kosovo was not all Serbs. It was comprised of the local population, so it had many Albanians and gypsies too.


>> later paramilitary forces of Arkan that killed civilians, raped women, burnt down houses of Albanians <<

The KLA did the same thing to Serb civilians, women, and houses. We can trade atrocity stories all day but what good will it do?


>> destroyed a great number of Mosques. <<

The KLA destroyed a great number of Orthodox churches too, how come we never read about that in the newspaper?


>> Only in Pec they destroyed all the mosques, including the one fomr the 15th century, one of the oldest in that area. <<

The oldest Serbian monastery destroyed I believe was built in the 11th century, or was it the 12th? Let's just say both sides destroyed the other's churches, but neither the Orthodox churches or the Mosques would have been destroyed if there was no KLA.


>> All facts Jatin, no lies. <<

You said Arkan came to Kosovo before the KLA was created. That's not a fact, it's a lie.


>> In Kosovo Arkan, in Bosnia Mladic, Karadzic, in Croatia Martic. All paramilitary, terrorist like groups with hired criminials, escaped convicts (proven), the worst kind of people let out to the their "job". <<

Apples and oranges. We're discussing Kosovo, not Bosnia or Croatia.


>> I do ackowledge all those facts, but I acknowledge them ALL, not just those that you might find suitable. <<

I acknowledge anything for which there are sufficient facts. Witness testimonies are NOT facts and neither are dead men with gunpowder on their hands. Why would civilians have gunpowder on their hands?


>> As do many many people on FR Jatin, that have turned the Balkans threads into Serb-only favorizing, <<

Who cares about FR? The people you're talking about are probably Serbs so of course they will defend Arkan. I'm telling you what I see from a completely neutral point of view. If I thought the KLA were the good guys and Serbs the bad guys I would not hesitate to say it.


>> Arkan glorifying (how many times I heard Arkan being called a hero there) <<

I could understand how someone would find Arkan a hero if Arkan defended their village from the KLA.


The point: The KLA is 100% to blame for starting the violence in Kosovo. No KLA, no violence, and everyone would be living happily today.

Well there's not much difference between the Serbs (I would note radical ones, which is regular among emigration, and I suspect even people that were involved in paramilitary forces as they themselves claim about their involvement and there's so many Arkan fans and proud-to-be-Chetnik-fans on FR) and what you say. The same excuses, justifications, and the same twist of facts, or even turning victims into perpetrators. And saying that KLA is 100% responsible for the start of the killings is just the top of all ignorance. When did KLA form? And when did Milosevic came to power? 1988 if you remember. Now how many years of violence without KLA is there. 8 years! Your denial does not do you good, and there's certain things you obviously don't know or more likely don't want to acknowledge.

While those of us that lived in Yugoslavia till 1991 remember very well the events of 1988 and later when certain people came to power and the violence started (it must be only a coincidence that the violence happened with the arrival of Milosevic and his policy as did Yugoslavia break up not long after that after serious disputes with Milosevic and the Serbian KPS) No, I guess I am just ignorant and a liar, while you know everything 100% and there's no way you could be wrong. Especially not because your "truth" is repeated a million times on FR. But then, based on the people gathering there, their agenda, and background, and the dominance of Serbs, that is not a guarantee for truth, is it? When there will be Slovenians, Croats, Albanians, Bosnian Muslims participating there as much as Serbs, then we could talk about normal discussion. Till then there is no difference between Srpska Mreza, SUC and the FR Balkan threads.

The violence in Kosovo didn't start until the KLA began their jihad for independence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Milosevic didn't send the army until AFTER the KLA had been formed. Or are you trying to tell me the army had been mobilized in Kosovo before 1996? It was a reasonable move on Milosevic's part, because the ordinary police are only lightly armed and they can't fight against the KLA who had (and still have) assault rifles, rocket launchers, mortars, etc. How dare Milosevic try to protect a Serbian province from being torn away by a group of rebels? He should've just let them take Kosovo. So what if it had belonged to Serbia for more than a thousand years?

Guys, having a partial view of history is not lying.

The first big event of this conflict, since 1945, was the anti-Serb pogroms of 1981.

The UCK first action took place in the spring of 1993,with the killing of two cops, after George Bush had given the green light .

"Agim Ceku... told me in an interview last year that he was a leading officer in the Croatian Army but left in 1995 after it had driven out 250,000 Croatian citizens of Serb nationality. He had "helped", as he expressed it, UCK/KLA since it was formed in 1992 or 1993." (Jan Oberg, TFF)

Maybe. But what I'm trying to say is that Arkan and his paramilitaries didn't go into Kosovo until after the KLA began their activities. He was too busy in Bosnia.

And that's supposed to justify what Arkan's paramilitary forces did in Kosovo? Please...a war criminal is a war criminal, no matter how many excuses and justifications you bring up. They killed civilians, massacred, burnt down entire villages, Mosques. OK Arkan is dead now although I would rather much see that justice would get him, but there's still Mladic and Karadzic walking free. And the blood of many people is on their hands.

When did I say Arkan's actions were justified? Show me one instance when I said that what Arkan did was right? This is the umpteenth time you've put words in my mouth and you better not do it again.

The point is, the KLA started the violence in Kosovo, not Arkan. You can blame Arkan for a lot of things, but you cannot blame him for starting the violence in Kosovo.

Well we could argue about this for a long time, but one thing is for sure: The KLA couldn't have started the violence, as they were not around in 1988, where reports of systematic violence against Albanians was reported. And I didn't say that Arkan started it, but Serb forces (police and later military) in form of repression against Albanians. That's why Albanians revolted (and the fact that they lost their little authonomy because of Milosevic, a FACT!). KLA was formed years later as an answer to Serb repression, and that does not excuse their actions and killings of Serbs in the last years, but that must be said and not ignored. Milosevic came to power in 1988,by overthrowing Stambolic, and there was even not a single sign of any KLA in Kosovo for years to come. Unless you equate KLA with ALL ALbanians and you'r telling me that when Albanians responded to violence, they were terrorists, while those terroising them were the "good guys". So....

You decided to start history in 1988. Organized violence started in 1981 as a pogrom against Serbs.

Yeah, well and we could go back for another 50 years, and another 50 years and so on and on...But some things are very clear. Albanians had a certain amount of authonomy that was taken from them, shortly after Milosevic came to power. And they had no right to do it. Which gave the Albanians a clear sign that they were not considered as equal citizens (and they lost their University as well to top it all), even though they formed 90% of Kosovo and not Serbs. Try doing that in any other country with a 90% of people, and you'll see what will happen. No normal person would gratefully accept such treatment and degradation on some basic human rights as were given to the Albanians by Tito in old Yugoslavia. The fact that a nationalistic and proto-facist policy of Milosevic did that is no surprise, considering what it also wanted to do elsewhere and what it almost did (Bosnia, Croatia). Such mentality and policy was luckily defeated and one of the creators is now in Hague, but obviously it still lives in the minds of certain people (many of whom I have met on Freerepublic, a forum I think you should know by now Matt . And that's where my problem lies.

Belgrade had forgiven the Albanians for the 1941 genocide and had asked to be forgiven for the 1944 murderous response to the Ballist insurrection.

While Greeks, Croats, and Slovenians had expelled their minorities in 1944-45, the Serbs built them a university--a unique case in the world. They gave up power to their former enemies--also a unique case in the world-- and for thanks they got stonings, arson, and pogrom. So they wised-up and removed the power of the Albanian police.

Instead of trying to moderate the hurt feelings on both sides and instead of negotiating, the U.S. vetoed partition and encouraged Albanians to kill Slavs, while it encouraged Slavs to kill Albanians in Macedonia. That's how we got two splendid little wars.

Slovenia expelled it's minorities? Matt, I am sorry but you don't know what you'r talking about. You mean the 200.000 people from ex Yugoslavia that GOT Slovenian citizenship and migrated here, the Serbs, Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Italians, Hungarians, Germans, Roma's that are living here? Nobody expelled them, neither before, neither since we are independent. Quite the contrary, we had the biggest increase of migrants from ex Yugoslavia. 200.000 since 1991, is 10% of the whole population Matt, so please, check some facts before you make any claims. And btw, you know what is presently the most ethnically clean territory/country in Europe? No, not Kosovo, Republika Srpska, where none of the Muslims and other non-Serbs could return to their homes because they are already inhabited!. I know, those damn ugly facts.....

And you know Matt, you already remind me of the propaganda of Srpska Mreza and SUC, where Serbs are the only victims, the only ones terrorized, the only ones ethnically cleansed, while all the others are SO bad, evil, criminal. Serbs never did anything bad to no one,no no, not in Bosnia, not in Kosovo, nor elsewhere. No Chetniks of Draza Mihajlovic, no Chetniks of Mladic and Karadzic and those of Arkan. They were only "freedom fighters" and Serb patriots.

And they never denied anyone it's rights (Albanians in Kosovo, naaa?) specialy not to any minority. No cause the Albanians were not a minority in Kosovo, but majority, yet they took them even those minority rights they had, for their own sake, such honorable man as Milosevic was.

Excuse me Matt,but you'll have to try to be at least a bit more objective, or you have joint the likes of those FR Milosevic apologists and other likes around the net, that see only as they would like it to see, not considering THEIR faults and responsibility of THEIR people and there actions.

Then we'll talk...

If Serbs wanted only to expel ALbanians from Kosovo, then why didn't they do it right after WW2 when no one would've noticed (or cared)? Instead, they were encouraged to stay and even got their own university, like Matt says. Funny behavior for a nation of ethnic cleansers, hey?

But the thing I don't understand is your claims of opression in 1988. The Albanians were not oppressed in the least, they had every right any other person had. They wanted unreasonable things such as schools in Albanian but funded by Serbs. If they wanted schools in Albanian they were free to build their own private schools and fund them theirselves. The autonomy that was taken away by Milosevic was given to them only in 1974 by Tito, who according to Yugoslav law had no right to give them that autonomy in the first place. Sorry, but these claims of oppression don't hold any water. How come none of the other minorities in Serbia are complaining about oppression? I don't think this is about minority rights. It's about independence from Serbia and the creation of "Kosova" or Greater Albania. Minority rights was just to get attention from the international community.

And why do you have a problem with Draza Mihajlovic and his Chetniks? He is considered a hero by everyone (not just Serbs) and he even got the medal of honour for his actions during WW2. What exactly are you blaming him for?

Draza Mihajlovic is considered a hero by everyone? I don't think so! Maybe among the Serb emigration (that tends to be the most and those Serbs that supported the Chetniks and those people that don't know about his role in WW2. The Chetniks of Draza Mihajlovic collaborated with the Germans, if you didn't know that. You had various units of Chetniks, some of them that did infact cooperate with the Allies and helped US and other allie soldiers, but you had the Chetnkis that had the same role as the Ustasha (Croatia), Bela Garda (Slovenia), and various collaborating groups throughout Europe. And nothing will change that fact, no matter how some might want to idolize Draza Mihajlovic. Some things are very clear. But obviously unclear to certain people that don't understand them or don't want to understand them. Read some history book of Yugoslavia in WW2, thoroughly, and you'll see what I am talking about. So one more time, Draza Mihajlovic and the Chetniks were no hero's (for most of the part anyway) just as the Ustasha were no heros, even though you have some Croats or Serbs that consider them as such. But these people haven't really dealt with some historical facts and the responsibility of such policy and mentality.

Unfortunately for you, I happen to know a great deal about WW2 history, especially in eastern europe. There were 2 main Chetnik groups, the Ravna Gora chetniks under Draza Mihailovic, and those under Kosta Pecanac. Mihailovic's chetniks never collaborated with the Nazis. Pecanac's Chetniks on the other hand fought with the Nazis sometimes and against the Nazis sometimes, depending on what suited them. The two chetnik groups also fought against each other sometimes, and sometimes they even teamed up to fight the Nazis or the Partisans.

But Mihailovic's chetniks NEVER fought on the Nazi side, and anyone who claims so is either lying or misinformed. Ustashe propaganda will tell you that ALL Chetniks collaborated with the Nazis, so it depends on if you want to believe the Ustashe or the Serbs/British/ Americans/French/etc. In 1943 Kosta Pecanac was captured by the chetniks of Ravna gora and accused of collaboration with the Nazis, and executed.

I would recommend you to read "For Croatia And Christ: The Croatian Army In World War II 1941-1945" by Antonio J. Munoz. There is a lot of information in that book most people don't know.

Well for a change something I can agree with, but with one important note: Draza Mihajlovic DID collaborate with the Nazi's and there is enough evidence of that, and as you yourself said he collaborated when it suite him and didn't when he didn't need to and saw that the allies would win eventually. Sorry, but he is no hero to me. Even if he did cooperated with the Allies or get medals, there are things about him and his forces that will never make me admire him or consider him a REAL anti-Nazi. Too much of the dark side. If we call the Ustasha for what they are, and other collaborators, we must call those forces within Serbia that collaborated, Mihajlovic being among them. Those of us that lived in Yugoslavia, went to Yugoslav schools and heard about it from parents, grandparents, yugo historians, partisans, people that were part of anti-facist movement in Yugoslavia during WW2, know certain things for sure. Without needing the internet of some forums telling us some "new" truth, or modified historical facts. We just can do better. Sorry Jatin

I say, Jatin, your knowledge of Balkan history is quite impressive.

Blaz, you are a good man and a good debater, but you are a bit too close to the fray to be expected to be impartial.

Anyway, let's start a new thread, this one is getting too narrow.

Haha, wait Matt, I am impartial? And Jatin is supposed to be unbiased. Of all the nationalities from ex Yugoslavia, I can say that as a Slovenian I am the most impartial. There were no war crimes comitted against Slovenians or by Slovenians in the conflict, Serbs or others were NOT expelled from Slovenia, but quite the contrary, no one had any problems here, neither Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians, Romas. Ask them if you ever come to Slovenia. Compared to all those people claiming to be impartial, unbiased, objective, while being extremely pro-one side, if not even pro-Milosevic, pro Arkan, I am the most impartial. I am not anti-Serb, I am not anti-Croat, anti Muslim, anti Albanian, I don't hate ANYONE, I don't have problems with anyone. Which I could hardly say for 90% of the people that claim how "impartial" they are, while their agenda and ideology is very much present. Sure I am Slovenian, and Slovenia left Yugoslavia, but not in tons of blood or burdened with some hatred, we had no one to hate, unless the strong opposition to Milosevic and his policy. But Milosevic is not (and was not) Serbia, he was just a politician who thought that he could do it his way. Luckily he did not succeed, only in causing death and misery to many people inside Serbia and outside Serbia. So yes, i am very much anti-Milosevic and everything he represents(ed), but I am certainly not anti-Serb. Anyone claiming so, because I oppose Milosevic, is either a Milosevic supporter, someone who is not ready to deal with his responsibility for many of the misery, or someone that just does not understand the difference between normal people and people responsible for war crimes and the policy behind it. Those people that see no problems in those war crimes, that they justify, minimize, look for excuses (WW2), deny crimes comitted in a constant fashion, basically do everything to avoid the responsibility of those actions, the policy behind it, the people behind it (Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic, Arkan, Mladic) as thought it all never happened. Now pointing to KLA is very easy and comfortable, but pointing back and dealing with it, can be a very BIG problem for some people. Something I have seen on so many occasions.