Matteo sent us on August 26 2002, 8:37 AM from 140.105.59.9 a comment on Ultra Nationalist Serb's letter "There's nothing wrong with a little bit of nationalism."    

I think that from nationalism grew, grows and will grow all forms of injustice and violence of the modern world: just put nationalism toghether with a little of economic interests and you'll have started a nice little fire...

That's true, in general, but sometimes the opposite can happen. In the case of Yugoslavia, the trouble was started by communist Belgrade politicians who were so anti-nationalist and so politically correct that they decided that there was something about being Albanian that was real good, and something about being Serb that was not so good. That attitude may have originated in Karl Marx's own anti-peasant and anti-Serb prejudice, which became official doctrine in Moscow in the 1920's.

After WWII, after the genocide against Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews, Belgrade forbade the return to Kosovo of the survivors of genocide, while allowing immigration from Albania. When total control was transferred to the Albanian majority after 1971, oppression of Kosovo minorities was tolerated by Belgrade, while the history of the genocide was suppressed. This led to the anti-Serb pogroms of 1980 and finally to the decision to reduce the autonomy of Kosovo.

Still, that does not mean that Albanians are "bad" or "greedy," it just shows that they had the misfortune of having weak leaders. Children and grown-ups in our species will normally behave as badly as they can get away with. In Italy, under the fascist regime, when some people found that they could mistreat the Slovene minority, they did it with pleasure. The same happened to Italians in Yugoslavia after 1945, and to non-Catholics in Croatia after 1989. It did not happen to catholics and moslems in Belgrade in the 1990's because the cops there had orders to behave, and they did behave fairly.

One more thing: our friend Ultra Nationalist Serb does not seem to be too Ultra, so far. You want to see some real ultra loony nationalists? That Slavic Nationalist Forum, earlier recommended, yaw...
 

Ok, maybe i should read some more literature about post WWII period, still i belive that nationalism is present in western (by today i should not make this distinction, i fear) culture, so, regardless wich politics are chosen by our somuchenlightened politicians, there is still a clash of opposite nationalisms, because our culture is instilled with that ideas.
Ras

...noone has anything to say about this topic.
Strange, i thought it was worth a little debate.
Ras

It's probably because there are other matters of concern lately, like the upcoming crusade, I mean war against Iraq that's on Bush's menu.

...some nationalism is involved here too.
Actually not in Bush polithics, but in those US citizens who who support those politics because they feel that doing so they are good patriots.
I think that the best thing to do to be good US (and not only) patriots would be pusshing the government not to spread war on the globe...
Se vidimo
Ras

Nationalism appears when a nation is threatened, or when it is oppressed by others. After conflict, when oppression ends, people naturally want revenge and want to go and kick their neighbors, just to show them what it feels like. Quite normal, that's one way in which wars start and restart, if the leader allow it to happen.

In the old days, we would cross the creek and go rape, murder, and pillage, trying to wipe out the nasty people who lived there. We did it for so many thousands of years that it still comes quite natural, and most guys get back into it with ease. The raiding instinct is very powerful, and entire nations get into it. Then the nation begins expanding and becomes an empire. At present we are observing a raiding phase for the Anglo Empire.

I'd rather say American-Anglo Empire.
In any case i must disagree with you when you stated that Nationalism comes up when a country is oppressed or threatened. The biggest objection to this statement is the feelings of the population of the German Empire at the declaration of war: they where enthusiasts of going to the front and smash the enemies of their country, so enthusiasts that even the socialist party adhered to this sentiments declaring that the SPD would have supported the national effort in the war (the only socialists openly against the war were Lenin, some of the austro-marxists and the italians). Even if the war was ignited by causes far away from nationalism, still nationalism played a great role in determining what the governments aspected their countries could bare in terms of public opinion...

Ras

Hispanic Americans call Americans Anglos--or Gringos. When I say the Anglo empire I mean the Empire run from Washington in cooperation with the Special Satellites, Great Britain, Canada, and Australia. There are also the Regular Satellites, like Italy or Bulgaria, whose leaders get invited to court dinners.

To me nationanlism is an ideology that arises when people get ticked off about foreign masters giving orders. Nationalists want self-determination or wish to protect their nation from its enemies. It is not necessarily an irrational attitude. German and Russian nationalism arose as a reaction to Napoleonic conquest. Slav and Italian nationalism appeared under similar circumstances.

Patriotism deals with following orders, it boils down to marching off to war when Pater, Papa, Rex, or Dux tell us to march. Nationalists can be internationalist, as the followers of Mazzini showed when they supported Greek rebels or Serb rebels in Bosnia. Patriots instead know one language, they love one culture, tend to be close-minded, and are very well aware of their own superiority.

You may disagree with nationalists, but they tend to be open to thought. Patriotism does not require much thought. My dogs are very patriotic.

Very thought provoking Matt!

Mazzini: his "international nationalism" was the best and more honest failure of european political thought in the XIX sec. Simply you cannot want to "free" a land from strangers when it's ethnically mixed, and every country has some kind of minorities. When Italy pushed it's borders near to the point of today, the italian politicians found out that after all Italy was not an ethnical monolith. They began to wonder if Mazzini was wrong and thus stated that after all he was a nice dreamer and that the only solution was to cleanse the border territories from other ethnical groups (either by a forced exodus or by cultural conquest: this depended by their political positions). The trick was done: Italians became truly nationalists (and then fascists).
So by saying patriotism i mean a more primitive form of nationalism: both will lead to disaster in the end.
When my COMMUNITY is threatened, i do not see the need to define my community by ethical means to defend it. There are other (more effective) ways to do it. Orelse i could find myself engulfed in a nice mop-up operation that i never wanted.
Regards
Ras

P.S. Even my cat is a good patriot, let our pets never meet: you could immagine the consequences... !

Talking about the "community" definition i intended [B]ethnical[/B], of course.
Regards
Ras