Ok, Now that we all know how friendly the U.S. government is with Muslim minorities, I think it is only fair that we as a nation try and help the Palistinians in Israel regain some of their homeland. After all, just like those poor victimized Kosovars and Bosnian-Muslims, Arab-Muslims living in Israel are:

A) Treated like second class humans in their own country of birth(Arab-Muslims are not given citizenship status in Israel)

B) Easily deported with out trial or due process.

C) Forced to live in restricted areas such as the Westbank and Gaza Strip...that is until Orthodox settlers decide they want to expand into their lands inorder to give the Arabs even less space to live (Kind of sounds like what the American settlers did to the Indians?)

D) Ban Muslims from joining the police or armed forces.

E) Force Muslim women and children to live in refugee camps in Jordan and Syria.

F) Allow their army to shoot into crowds of digruntled protesters and not hold anyone accountable.

G) Encourage the use of torture on prisoners suspected of terrorism (basically anyone who is not Jewish and disagrees with the policy of the state)

H)Keep Arab-Muslims in a state of poverty through discrimination.

I) Restrict movement on Arabs by setting up check points along roads, and requiring them to carry around passports that are checked by the police or other authorities at random.

Ok, I can go on but you should get the point by now. Unfortunately, since Muslims and Jews hate each other so much, and so much blood has been spilt on both sides, it is unlikely that one can live with the other. The answer then, is to divide Israel in half so that both can live in peace with their own kind just like in Kosovo. Of course, if you are a Jew living with in the Palistinian zone....you better watch your ass cuz your neighbors are gonna want to roast you on a spit. And, of course, if you happen to be a Muslim living in the Israeli side then nothing will change, cuz you're already treated like shit anyway. America will be happy because we will mediate the peace and force both sides to bend... I mean accept ...our...I mean NATO's decision. This will be a public relations victory for the good' ole U.S. of A and foreign countries will have a reason to hate us more....with the exception of the French who couldn't Possibly hate us more than they do now anyway. Jews will be pissed cuz they lost over half of their promised land, Muslims will be content for the meantime untill they feel the itch to claim the right to the other half of the country, America will gain the satisfaction of sticking it's nose into an other weaker nation's business, and fat, ugly American house wives will get something to cry about on the evening news.

Condition G was an undeniable fact in Kosovo, and Albanians did die under torture in police stations in Kosovo, just as Arabs died in Israeli jails, although certainly in much lower numbers than those who died under conditions of physical or psychological torture, including rape, in Turkish or American jails. However, condition A to F and H to I did not apply to Kosovo Albanians.

In regard to your comments on the last line of your otherwise sensible letter, it seems you got carried away a bit. We should not be taking issue here with the poor diet and lack of exercise many working class Americans suffer from.

True.....Israelis mistreat their minority subjects (Only Jews are given citizenship status in Israel by the government)much harsher than The Serbs. The Serbs only layed the hammer down (so to speak) when they were faced with what even we in the U.S. would consider political terrorism. The problem with the American public, aside from being overweight, is that they are very simple minded in terms of political reality. Americans believe every complicated issue can be explained through a dichotomy of good versus evil. I call it the Star Wars method of deduction. It makes decisions much less complicated and convenient. American policy in Eastern Europe, therefore, cannot be based on black or white notions of fairness and justice. The U.S. should base foreign policy decisions on more objective criteria, such as national interest and cost benefit analysis. Bombing and and invading Yugoslavia:

A)Costs Money and therefore drains us of scarce resources.

b)Requires troops be stationed on foreign soil, which costs the tax payers money and drains us of scarce resources.

C)Momentarily shifts violence away from one group and toward another. U.S. does not benefit from this.

D)Requires that idiot American tax payers indirectly supply money and relief to war stricken country in order to help build new nation out of one that formerly did not exist. Very costly and only makes nation dependent on U.S. giant.

E)Makes U.S. citizens feel better but does not prevent other nations from hating us any less. I guess this would be the benefit.

You said: “The Serbs only layed the hammer down (so to speak) when they were faced with what even we in the U.S. would consider political terrorism.”

I am sorry, but you obviously don’t know a thing about Kosovo. The ones who started the violence and terrorist acts against Albanians were Serbs, since there was no KLA till 1996! That’s 8 years after the violence in Kosovo started (1988 with the arrival of Milosevic to power), when Albanian houses were being burnt, innocent people terrorized by Serb police and military. Later paramilitary forces joined them in the violence.

KLA was simply an answer to Serb violence, as a way for Albanians to protect themselves, like it or not. That does not reduce KLA’s responsibility for crimes against Serbs, but that is one very important fact that some people have problems accepting.

So even long before KLA even existed, innocent people died in Kosovo, many of them forced to leave their houses. And there was no NATO attacks then and similar excuses for those that justify Serb actions!

accidently i ran into this discussion, and found it facinating. first i'll say taht i am israeli, so i don't claim to be totally objective, but still there are some things i want to comment about the point-of-view some of you share here.
your knowledge of what is going on in israel in quite impressive, i have to say, but it is fed by the media, and therefore is subject to its way of seeing things.
some facts first -
a) there is no law saying that arab-muslims can't be israeli citivens. in fact there are more then one million of them!!! (and that's a million out of just 5 million israeli citizens). the thing is that the arab-muslims in israel are divided to 2 groups - those who live within the "green line" territories (israel as it was till 1967), whom are equall israeli citizens, and those who live in the gaza strip and the west bank, which israel conquered in 1967 from jordan and egypt, and did not get, and do not want israeli citizenship. they claim to be palestinians, and they want a country of their own, in the leadership of arafat.
the israeli-arabs do not live in refugee camps, and their living standard is higher then the one in most of our neighboaring countries (jordan, egypt, syria and lebanon). however the palestinians do suffer from bad living standards, and i do not say that israel shouldn't have done more for them in the 30 years period they were under its authority.

b) the justice system in israel is independent and strong, and there are no cases of people "Easily deported with out trial or due process". and by the way - israel has not deported anyone since 1990, and even then it was a group of terrorist within the hamas group.

this subject is too wide to be catching it all at once, but i think i've said some important things here, and hope i've helped you see the other side of this difficult conflict as well.

have a peaceful week
rani

Rebel military action in Kosovo started within months of President Bush giving the go-ahead in December 1992.

Rani is correct in his observations on Israel, but what Lloyd was pointing out was that the kind of repression of which Serbs were accused of in Kosovo is very common, and is tolerated and usually praised by western democracies. When Gostivar was attacked for raising the Albanian and Turkish flag in 1997, with Albanians shot dead and beaten to death, there was encouragement and support for such police action coming from NATO humanitarians.

what the hell is the problem here. this is the 4th time i've tried to post my message

Ah there we are. It seems we can't use proxies when posting on this board. Here's what I've been trying to post for the past 15 minutes:

Blaz, Matt, you know nothing about Kosovo. Guess what? There was no genocide! That was invented by the KLA and bought by William Walker and the western media and blown out of proportion.

Genocide is defined as the deliberate extermination of an entire race of people. If genocide occured in Kosovo, then please explain to me why there are more Albanians in Kosovo today than there were 5 years ago? Or 10 years ago? I'm really looking forward to hearing your explanation to that.

As for the torture/burning of houses, that's another myth started by the KLA and bought by CNN and the like. The Serb police were torturing Albanians in 1988 you say? Do you know that the police in Yugoslavia in 1998 were not only Serbs, but also Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, and others such as gypsies? Burning of houses in 1988 you say? I would like you to show me proof of one house burned in 1988. That did not happen until 1998 when Serb forces were fighting the KLA.

I suggest you look beyond CNN when trying to learn about Kosovo. The western media only tells you what the government wants you to know. I hope I've cleared things up a bit.

May 20 2001 at 5:21 AM Lloyd Koski  (no login)
from IP address 205.186.50.110
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The U.S. under president Clinton stated that it was not interested in policing or nation building in the Balkans. They (we) lied. The United States is populated by 250 million people, 95% percent of whom could not point to Yugolsavia on a map. American's are by and large ignorant, self righteous, narrow minded people who are highly influence by a biased, entertainment driven media. The war's in Bosnia and Kosovo are civil wars. Yugoslavia is and has always been an ethnically diverse area in Europe. Terrorism and violence are not new to the Balkans. Most Americans neglected to understand why Serbs were fighting Muslims in Kosovo. They could not comprehend the reasoning behind the violence. What they failed to understand was that Kosovo is and always has been a part of Serbia. Kosovars are not any more Kosovars than someone from California is an ethnic Californian. Serbs were called into Kosovo because of the terrorism that was perpetrated by extremist Muslim militants. If a state in the U.S. seceded from the union, the tanks would roll and mass arrests would be made just as they were during the Kosovo conflict. The American government are Hypocritical and naive to think that they can enforce peace in an area they know nothing about. Kosovo belongs to Serbia. What the U.S. has done should be treated as a war crime. Who is going to stop Muslim terrorist radicals from exterminating innocent serb civilians? By involving it's self in he Balkans, the U.S. has only succeded in allowing one ethnic group to butcher another.
 
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Blaz
(no login)
193.2.73.199
Ignorance? May 20 2001, 10:28 AM 

You said that American’s are and I quote “by and large ignorant, self righteous, narrow minded people who are highly influence by a biased, entertainment driven media”

And then you go on saying that the war’s in Bosnia and Kosovo are civil wars. By that you prove yourself outmost ignorant biased and driven by particular media.

What civil wars? Military and PARAMILITARY forces (Chetniks) were sent from Serbia to kill, butcher, burn and rape and you’re telling me it was some kind of civil war. That is the biggest lie that is used to justify one’s cause. In this case Serb’s cause. And by that your are defending the policy of people like Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic, Arkan, all war criminals, responsible for war crimes in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo.

Those of us that lived in Yugoslavia when it still existed are very much aware of that and comprehend the reasoning behind the violence and how it all started. The same violence that escalated with the arrival of Slobodan Milosevic. He started his way to power by force, discarding his mentor Ivan Stambolic who has disappeared since last Serbian elections and has still not been found. And he ended (hopefully) by being brought to jail, while Hague still awaits him.

As for Kosovo, 90% of its population is Albanian, and Serbian forces did not intervene to stop terrorism, as they were killing and driving out Albanians from their homes (civilians) and taking their passports at borders when they fled out by force. You call that fighting terrorism, ethnically cleansing Albanian population out of Kosovo?

And again the “Muslim militant” issue is brought out. From when are children, women, and elderly Muslim militants? I really don’t see any difference between those Orthodox Christian militants among Serbs that killed non-Serbs out of pure hatred. What were the paramilitary Serbian forces other then some terrorist group (many released convicts among them)? I would really like to know that.

Are you trying to tell me that Christians are not capable of committing war crimes, or that they are justified to perform them? If you think that your defending Serbs as nation (those that actually suffered too) you’re wrong. You’re simply defending the policy that produced so much violence and killings, by saying it was justified. You’re justifying Milosevic and his actions, not Serbs as people. If you cannot distinct that, then I really feel sorry for you.

 
  Respond to this message   Lloyd Koski
(no login)
199.182.118.151
Untitled May 20 2001, 10:46 PM 

You are wrong. The war in Kosovo was a CIVIL WAR. We had a civil war in America that lasted five years. Innocent civilians in both the north and the south were arrested, imprisoned, and hanged without trial. Homes and farms were burned to the ground. Prisoners of war were starved to death and mistreated while women were raped. As a result, the union was kept in tact. All Americans recognize that what happened from 1860 to 1865 was necessary to keep the U.S. from splitting up. Kosovo is not a country. It has always been a part of Serbia. The violence that has occurred as a result of this civil war has been directed on both Serbs and Kosovo-Muslims. Serbs kill Muslims and Muslims kill Serbs. What you fail to recognize is that this issue is political, just as a war to separate a state from the U.S. by means of force is political, and the Serbian government has the right to hold it's borders together.

Let us assume that one day in the future the population of California becomes 90% hispanic. At the moment the hispanic population is near 40%. The population contains Mexican and Central American immigrants and their decendents who follow a culture influenced but totally separate from that of any other state in the U.S. California now wants more political autonomy because they feel that their needs are not being recognized by an Anglo-dominated congress and central government in Washington D.C. The Hispanic-dominated assembly in Sacramento threaten to secede if they are not allowed exemption from certain Federal Laws and taxes. The Senate and Congress in washington refuse to make concessions on the grounds that doing so would weaken the union linking the other 49 states to a strong central govenment in Washington. Furthermore, abuses and excessive force by the police increase at an alarming rate do to the political tensions on the street. The police departments in every city create programs to fight what they term as "street crime" in order to de-politicalize anti-government defiance and protest. Also, The police turn to racial profiling in order to facilitate arrests and demoralize the rebelious hispanic population. Those wanting independence for California argue that the U.S. government's claim on the state is weak due to the fact that it was taken by force from Mexico without "just compensation". When a Mexican-American vandalizes a government building by spray painting a political slogan, he or she is arrested and taken away like a violent criminal. No political status is granted, because the authorities do not want to recognize their cause, and therefore, legitimize it. Finally, the heavely Hispanic-assembly in Sacramento vote to secede and a militant wing is created to enforce secession. What happens now? Does the U.S. govenment negociate with what it has been claiming all along are terrorists and criminals? Does the governor call in the National Gaurd to quell protests and riots? Does the justice system adapt to long lines of "criminals" awaiting trial and eventual conviction? Does the U.S. build larger prisons to accommodate the thousands of political prisoners that are to be imprisoned due to the mass arrests that occur as a result of riots, protests, and civil unrest?

No! camps are built to house large ethnic populations deemed dangerous to the state. Freedom of speech is suspended. Mass arrests are made and Kangaroo courts convict the innocent along with the guilty. Non-citizens considered a threat are deported. Students are shot down with no one ever held responsible. Sound familiar? Kent State? WWII? Vietnam? The McCarthy era? Most would say what you are about to say. "But those situations are different, they happened along time ago. Even if they occurred in the past that does not prove that it could happen now. The U.S. is a liberal-democratic country that stands for justice. We have come along way since the 60's. Anyway, that still doesn't justify Sebian war crimes and abuse in Kosovo" I agree. It doesn't. But The U.S. has no right to involve it's self in the internal struggle of an autonomous and independent country. The U.S. would certainly object if the U.N. demanded it allow foreign peace keepers to insure the L.A.P.D not abuse its power over the minorities in South Central Los Angeles. Why should the Serbian government not be upset that it be forced to tollerate constant bombing and occupation of a foreign army with in it's own borders? And who gave the U.S. or the U.N. the right to create a nation out of a province long considered a part of Serbia? What gives us the right to tell the Serbs how to deal with their own people? Did we bomb China when they massacred their students during a largly televised protest? Do we set up embargos every time the Israeli's kill and deport large numbers of Arabs? Do we criticize the Israeli government for not allowing over half of it's population citizenship because they are not Jewish? No we don't. I suppose it is not in our interest to do so. It is not convenient. Demonizing the Serbs and interfering in their affairs is.
 
  Respond to this message   matt
(no login)
212.63.98.188
Madame Del Ponte goes to Waco May 21 2001, 7:14 AM 

Hey guys, I am willing to accept UN monitors in police stations in Los Angeles. I am also agreeable to Madame Del Ponte coming to Waco, Texas, to investigate that little incident in which 30 children and 50 adults were massacred in 1993. Then, as soon as Mr. Clinton, Ms. Reno and Ms Albright are safely under detention at the InterNATO Tribunal at The Hague, we must insist that Mr. Milosevic be sent as well.
 
  Respond to this message   Blaz
(no login)
193.2.73.183
Internal matter, really? May 24 2001, 1:12 PM 

I am glad we agree on this crucial matter. That Serbs committed war crimes in Kosovo, as well as in Bosnia (to the biggest proportions) and in Croatia (where they were themselves victims of war crimes and driven out of their homes as well as they have been victims of KLA violence and killings mostly after NATO attacks on Serbia and since Yugo Army left Kosovo). No doubt about that, and you’ll never hear me deny that.

But the “its an internal mater of Serbia” does not stand. Sovereignty exists to the level where you don’t perform crimes against minorities or other nationalities in your own country. The moment you start systematically killing people, driving them out of their homes, commit war crimes, crimes against humanity, the international community has the right and need to intervene.

Even though NATO attacks weren’t purely legal in sense that they weren’t approved by the UN, they were justified, because the Serbian military and paramilitary forces where in process of ethnical cleansing Kosovo of Albanians, who represent 90% of the whole population. 1/3 of the population was already driven out before NATO attacks, and there was nothing stopping the Serb forces in their “mission”.

This ethnic cleansing and killing was going on, it was proven, documented, witnessed and you can never deny that nor can anyone. Those are facts Lloyd, pure facts.

But if you think that a country can drive out 90% of its population and claim its their “holy land”, then I really can only wonder what makes you defend Serb actions and even justify such policy.

As a Slovenian I experienced a bit of this policy with air raids, tanks, combat airplanes bombing civilian targets, but it was nothing compared to what happened in Bosnia and Kosovo. So I am not just some observer, I was part of this whole story. And I can prove you wrong without any problems.

 
  Respond to this message   matt
(no login)
212.63.97.126
information, please May 29 2001, 12:04 PM 

Where did you read that 700,000 had been driven from Kosovo before March 23, 1999?
 
  Respond to this message   Koski
(no login)
199.182.117.177
Untitled June 10 2001, 1:36 AM 

Blaz, are you excusing the murders and assasinations committed by Albanians and KLA members prior to the crack down? The Albanian people had been commiting there own form of terror and genocide against Serbs and Montenegrins for years. The KLA are terrorists and the Albanians in Kosovo are not innocent victims. The victims are the few Serb settlers left who have not migrated north from Kosovo out of fear of Muslim reprisals and attack. There have been instances of Muslim attacks on individuals, churches, and homes going back to 1969, and you blame Milosevic for attempting to stabalize anotherwise lawless province.And as for accusing Milosevic of inflicting a policy of "ethnic cleansing" on Albanians, I hope you know that over 100,000 Serbs were forced out of their homes in Kosovo by Albanians and facist Italian troops during WWII. Furthermore, after the war, not a single Serb deported was allowed to return. Now who are the war criminals? Albania is not a free and democratic country, and the KLA are not fighters for a righteous cause. Albania is a country on the verge of Anarchy, and don't kid yourself, the KLA are a group of racists who won't stop at nothing till Kosovo is cleansed of anyone who isn't Albanian or Muslim.
 
  Respond to this message   matt
(no login)
212.63.98.121
Balkan friends June 12 2001, 3:30 AM 

Lloyd, and most of my Balkan friends, are making a mistake when they assume that there is a moral difference between "them" and "us". Every side can be justifiably accused of terrorism and atrocities, and if we are not all guilty, certainly some of our grandfathers and uncles were. Certainly there was major ethnic cleansing and repression of Christians in Kosovo until 1912, certainly there was genocide in WWII, and certainly there has been ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Kosovo since the 1960's. However, the major problem was not "Albanian lawlessness" but weakness of the Belgrade government and foreign involvement or financing of insurrection. That's what happened in 1876, in 1912, 1919, 1941, 1990, and 1992. If Kaiser Franz Josef or King Victor Emanuel, if Regent D'Annunzio or Uncle Sam send gold to start trouble anywhere in the Balkans--or the world--there will be trouble.

Another error is to think that this is a Christian-Moslem issue. Most of the 300,000+ people expelled from Kosovo by NATO are Moslems. They are Turks, Roma, Ashkaelia, Gorani, Bosniaks, Circassians, and pro-Yugoslav Albanians. About 1/3 of the refugees were Serb, Montenegrin, Croat, and Albanian Christians. It goes without saying that all the Jews were expelled.

Some minor details:

Albania has a free press and runs elections with probably less outstanding irregularities than Florida.

The Italian army behaved honourably in Kosovo in WWII. They ordered the killing of Serbs to cease, and tried to keep the Germans and their Albanian allies from exterminating the Jews. After September 8, 1943, many Italians joined the ranks of Albanian or Yugoslav partisans.

Many KLA officers are honourable men who did not kill their Serb prisoners. Others killed prisoners. Killing prisoners is a bad habit that armed groups get into easily: if I kill your brother, it will be very easy for you to kill mine, in combat or afterwards. The trick is not to finance peasants in distant lands to start wars. The United States sabotaged the peace agreement in Bosnia, vetoed partition of Kosovo, and ordered both wars.
 
  Respond to this message   matt, etc.
(no login)
212.63.98.121
Questions for Matt June 12 2001, 3:36 AM 

Lloyd Koski wrote:
So what do you suggest will end ethnic fighting in Bosnia, Kosovo, and now it seems in Macedonia as well? Do you divide up each province according to population demographics? Should you cooperate with the U.S. and NATO forces in hopes that elections in Kosovo will actually occur without bias or corruption? And what about the assembly in Kosovo that will be seated after the November elections? Will it represent the majority, while at the same time protect the minority? And can you state the intentions and objectives of NATO? Will Kosovo remain an autonomous state within the larger nation of Yugoslavia? Are there plans for a referendum to unite it with Albania? Will it become a seperate entity altogether?
 
  Respond to this message   matt
(no login)
212.63.97.124
Clinton riding off into the sunset June 12 2001, 10:31 AM 

NATO's objectives have always been defined in Washington. The Americans in 1992 decided to have "a splendid little war" in the Balkans to maintain the need for NATO and thus American hegemony. They wanted to go bang bang and ride off into the sunset. Instead, they got stuck in the mud of Bosnia, Macedonia, and Kosovo. Now they know they should get the hell out, but don't know how to leave without losing face and influence.

If you start a war and destroy ethnic equilibrium, the war does not end when you have the Victory Parade. There will be more war until when some form of equilibrium is restored. In all of this, elections are as relevant as parades.
 
  Respond to this message   Jatin
(login Jatin)
206.172.121.121
heh June 17 2001, 7:03 PM 

Most of what I'm reading here is anti-Serb BS.

Blaz, are you just a fool who watches too much CNN or do you have an agenda? In either case, you're very much a Serbophobe.

Guess what? Not all Serbs are butchers/torturers/ethnic cleansers! Serbs can be decent people too. Sure there were people like Arkan who committed war crimes, and they should be punished. But it wasn't only the Serbs committing war crimes. Ever hear of Nasir Oric or Hashim Thaci? If you get all your Balkans info from CNN, then probably not. If you want I would be happy to give you a detailed description of them.
 
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More people than you think did not believe NATO lies
May 17 2001 at 4:34 AM Popaul   (login Popaul)
from IP address 194.250.149.162
------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the KOSOVO conflict 1999, I had the opportunity
to talk about the events with different people in France and Spain. I met very few people who actually believed NATO lies, and most people were outraged by what was happening. Even my own mother, who used to call Milosevitch a "butcher", was disgusted and outraged by the lies and the bombings.
So I think the disinformation is far from succeeding, especially now that new events unfold in Macedonia and southern Serbia.
Good luck, and be sure you have many many people on your side!

 
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Jatin
(login Jatin)
206.172.121.22
macedonia June 18 2001, 1:02 PM 

Unforunately the Macedonian army is having a very hard time fighting the KLA. They've asked Nato to help them (since Nato is responsible for creating this mess in the first place), but so far Nato has made no attempt to help the Macedonians.
 
  Respond to this message   Volga
(no login)
62.24.70.229
thats funny July 24 2001, 5:55 PM 

I am one of the people who did not believe Nato lies. I knew that the Kla mujahedeen jihadist scums would not stop with Kosovo. Oh no, now they want Makedonia too! What next? Greece? Or maybe Montenegro and then another big part of Serbia. But that is okay, because they are on JIHAD! If you are on jihad then you can kill if you like and no one can try to stop you or he is a war criminal!