Lemming,

I am not sure if this is the proper place to post this. Apologies if I am in error.

I was thinking about your Ironman Moor Quartet -- good grief! Moors, and Ironmen to boot? You?re certainly the glutton for punishment.

But I got to thinking, and . . .there might be a way to accomplish this, kinda.

How about these Moors be IronSnobs? So Elitists, Moors, and Ironmen altogether?

There would be restictions on items as according to IronSnob rules the Birthday gifts cannot be greater than clevel +2 for each birthday, so the first birthday gift could be up to qlevel 3, fifth birthday gift up to qlevel 7, tenth birthday qlevel 12, fifteenth up to qlevel 17, and twentieth up to qlevel 22 (the team won?t reach clevel 25 before facing Diablo).

It will also mean further restrictions on items as it seems Moors won?t use axes (so no Wicked Axe) nor clubs (so no Gnarled Roots).

There would be further restrictions on spells, as Elitists cannot use Charged Bolt or Flash, while Moors won?t use Holy Bolt or Blood Star and Golem would be denied this group since it doesn?t have its first dot.

Then there?s the ?no amulet birthday gift? until you hit clevel 30(IronSnob rule), so the ammy slot will remain empty UNLESS you find a ?perfect? ammy whilst in the dungeon.

And, of course, what a selection exist for Unique Rings for the ring slots!

Recall that Ironsnobs won?t ?share? birthday gifts between each other -- too much sentimental value
to those items given them. Unique items found in the dungeon, well, that?s another matter. They are ?group? property and may be used by all -- if not eschewed by Moors or Elitists either.

Here would be my suggested build for your quartet.

First build -- assume no Blood Fount and no Purifying Spring
First Birthday gift: Needlers(qlvl2) to all!
Fifth Birthday gift: Overlords Helms(qlvl7) to all
Tenth Bday gift: Flamedarts (qlvl10) to all
Fifteenth Bday gift: Scavenger Carapaces(qlvl 13) to all
Twentieth Bday gift: varied to person. Suggestions -- Book MS, Book SC, Windforce, more Flamedarts if durability is an issue, and for whoever is the game creator, the Blackoak Shield(qlvl5).

That last item would be to help the game creator ?stand up? Diablo and take a beating whilst blocking and hoping his IronSnob Moor partners would be able to ?bow down? Diablo before the shield-bearer dies. It would be good if this same character (game creator) had mana shield operating, either by book or scroll.

I could see the group getting through Church with Needlers. At least two characters should make it to clevel 10 (and thus be eligible for another bday gift) while still in Church! This means they?d start Cats with Flamedarts at the ready!

Unfortunately, I don?t see this group as very viable in Cats. They probably won?t level up to clevel 15 while there, so that means entering Caves naked. On Caves Nine, should they survive, at least one character should reach clvl 15 and get a Scav?s.

Of course, all this would change if a PS and book of SC showed up beforehand. Then even Cats would be doable, if done very very slowly.

With everyone in Scav?s and Flamedarts, Caves might be doable, but I see durability on items being a serious issue by this point. Perhaps a different tenth birthday gift for two players -- Executioner?s Blades?

Then there would be the issue of ID?s -- all birthday gifts to IronSnobs are given ?wrapped?, i.e., unided. I would suggest everyone in the group get as many ids at game start as possible. Selling the CB staves would raise $520, if you feel you are allowed to do this by the rules.

Second build-- if a PS shows up while in Church or early Cats.
If a PS shows, I would think Executioner?s Blades(qlvl3; high durability) and books SC (qlevel 6) would become the order of the day. Then Stone em and smack em!

It would be a tricky balancing act throughout the game trying to put lups into Dex to use bows and Str to use Swords/shields/armors. Even one misspent set of points could spell the quest?s doom.

A Religious Shrine would be worth more than anything except a Purifying Spring. A Glimmering Shrine would also be nice. And books of SC and MS would be worth more than their weight in gold. And an RoE! Precious!

Major problems: Hidden types in general but Illusion Weavers in specific. The Flamedarts just wouldn?t be able to get the job done versus Illusion Weavers. Then there?s anything with Fire Immunity, such a Lava dudes. They would also probably spell the quest?s doom. And without SC, Lava Maws and Balrogs would probably be unmanageable. Witches would be doable. Knights
would be doable. Wizards would be doable. Even Storms would be doable!

But as far as killing Diablo, I have no idea if a Mage with a shield will last any amount of time against the Lord of Terror. If the Mage had Flash, sure he would; but that spell is forbidden Elitists.

All this is just idle conjecture. Might be interesting to try though.

Now locating all those unique items prior to the actual game start might be a tad difficult. You?d probably have to put out a request at Jims and ask for everyone to meet and search for FOUR of each item. And finding FOUR Overlord?s Helms(!!) would not be easy! Might take more than one search session to locate everything you need. But it would be damn fun in the meantime! (Count me in!)

If you attempt it again, best of luck, and let us know how you all do.

Attika

A couple of us tried IM Moors/Muscle Mages, hmm, longer than a year ago. The farthest we got was a dlvl 2 clear, excepting Butcher. Stairtrappers is the forte of no low level mage, I'll tell ya.

This forum's more or less dead now, but I appreciate your post. You certainly know a great deal more about IM than do I.

Oh, here's a picture from the Moorish frontier:

http://geocities.com/lemmingofglory/mwod.html

And the Moorish battlechant:

"We pluck our bows as we'd play a harp
And play the song of death!
When ye sees our arrows comin'
You'll suck in your last breath!

An' yer 'ead will roll across the floor
Full of little twigs!
After all we're mages
Can't lift much more than sprigs!

We roam along
Mow down the throngs
To the lone last beast!
And though he turns his tail to rrruuuuunnn
We won't stop when he yells 'Cease!'
Won't stop when he yells 'Cease!'
Wont stooop when he yyyyeeells 'Ceeeeease!'"

How about just make the four Moors be Elitists?

First birthday gift = Needler
Second = Flamedart
Third = Flamedart, Holy D, Overlord's Helm, or book MS?
Fourth = Scavenger's Carapace
Fifth (you at clevel 20) = Gott? Eaglehorn? Falcon's T?

Then try to Flamedart kill Diablo? At least one Moor should probably have gone for a Holy Defender and Falcon's Talon (the +10 Dex for blocking).

Then, with one Moor (with MS) meleeing the rest bowing like crazy, you should be able to take the Big Guy down.

Might prove interesting.

Attika

Attika: "but I see durability on items being a serious issue by this point."

What is your stance on using unique items that have been hiddenized? (By hiddenized I mean items that have had their durabilities boosted by hidden shrines.)

Perhaps this should have been addressed (assuming it has not been already) in the "Some Elitist Rules Clarifications Needed" topic at the RBD forum.

On another note, is your keyboard okay? It was apparent that your apostrophes (and perhaps quotation marks) were instead question marks.

My keyboard's fine; I usually type up my posts in Microsoft Works and then cut and paste to the Forums. For some odd reason, they don't correctly recognize the " and ' symbols. Bah.

If you used Hiddenized Needlers, then the game couldn't possibly be called Ironman. In IM games you can ONLY use items that are found in the game. Even if you are playing Elitists, you cannot "modify" the Elite items in a IM game -- they have to be Unique items that you CAN find.

Otherwise, why not create/hack up your own Unique items for your Snob? A nice Bastard sword with +20 all stats, max resistances, Kings, Haste, Ages, life steal.

But what would the point be?

Ok, so say it _isn't_ an Ironman run, then could you use Hiddenized Needlers?

Um, I guess, but again the question would be, what is the point? I mean, if you've changed the durability on the item you're giving your SNOB, you've altered the way the game is going to be played, and done it to your specific benefit.

Some might call that cheating.

I also like to "play by the rules, so to speak." What you suggest here is plainly and simply cheating.

And yeah, yeah, I know -- "Edit: I am not saying I am for this, but I do not recall this topic being covered before."

I'm surprised. You can't recognize a cheat when you suggest it?

Attika