I could go on about about holding such a great tournament in a bad facility. I could go on about running a true double elimination but it falls upon deaf ears. This tournament could be a class act but unfortunately it's not. Coaches from from Mass,VT,CT,RI,NH, and Me need to get together and demand a better tournament. Go to a 32 man bracket. Mass gets 8, Ct 6 and everybody else gets 4. Leave all the mats down and get rid of the dinner thing. I'll stop there cause I'll just be rambling on and nothing will ever change.


Now the wrestling was great. Props go to Mass. They are ahead of us all. I see a major difference from Mass and the other states. The Mass kids are much more muscular from top to bottom. Mass won 18 of their final 32 matches as opposed to Ct who lost 14 of their final 19 matches. We need to get bigger and stronger in CT.

The people sitting around me and I were thinking and talking about the same things. I understand having the tournament in Massachusetts. It's a central location for all of New England. But, they certainly could get a better facility than that. As a fan, there was inadequate seating, no safe walkawys up and down the bleachers, in some cases, not even safety railings on some of the bleachers to prevent people from accidentally falling off the end of one. Warm-up areas were inadequate for the wrestlers. When they went into the mat areas to warmup they were chased out by the announcer because the fans could not see the mats. This pig-tail/rat tail situation is not good, either. Where does this come from? I have not attended a lot of national events, but, this is the only tournament where I have seen this. It just seems unfair to any wrestler who has a bad first match that his destiny should be determined by what another wrestler does later. Maybe a single elimination to the round of 16 or quarter-finals would be better. At least you wouldn't have wrestlers cheering against other wrestlers so that a first round loser could advance. I would prefer a full double elimination, though. If a larger facility for more mats could be acquired, I think a 32 wrestler field as suggested by Pin would be great. What did they do during that break from 4-6 Saturday? Some kind of luncheon? Maybe wrestle through the afternoon and offering a nice buffet style dinner for the wrestlers afterward would be better. They are the ones that have been denying themselves for four months to make weight. Isn't this what this tournament is all about, the kids? We old farts can get together in the bars Friday night. I'm sure that some of my criticisms are born from being uninformed or ignorant. I hope that what I say here is not coming off as whining or ungreatful. However, things only can improve when people with opinions try to share them with the people that make the decisions.

Do we have any input as fans? Can we write a letter somewhere? Anyone know how we can let our opinions be voiced to someone that may make the decisions?

On the positive side, the tournament did run very well. Mats were busy constantly. Reffing wasn't bad. (LOL, that's generally the highest rating refs can get on this forum) The food was much better than Hillhouse. The Lowell neighborhood was better too. Kind of old time New England. Lots of nice restaurants, interesting things to see. The competition was outstanding. Again, I agree with Pin, Massachusetts still seems to be a bit above us in folkstyle. I think we competed well with the rest of the states. Maine has made great strides too.

For a wrestler this tournament is a great opportunity under any circumstances. I agree with Pin, though, the circumstances could be better. A larger, more modern facility would improve the circumstances tremendously and would improve the experience for all involved. I'm sure there were volunteers who put in countless hours, unpaid, to make things work. I do appreciate that and thank all those people for the hard work to make it the best tournament it can be.

I am pretty sure most everyone who had to endure this venue over the weekend would support your feelings on this, but who do you go to? And who has enough pull to make a difference?

I dont agree with the 8 6 4 qualifier format it is just to deep. Possibly sending CT 4 would be good but Mass 7/8 and NH RI ME VT 4 would just be a waste of time.
I do agree about the venue I didnt go back to finals because i didnt feel like being in a sardince can. I love the New Haven spot. I also think we need to seed / seperate returning place winners.

Did anyone else experience getting sun burned while sitting in the stands? At least fifteen people who were sitting in front of mats one and two, half way up there was a bright light with no protective cover. Everyone sitting directly under that bright light experienced severe burns. At first we thought it might have been a wind burn from walking from the hotel to the school, but that wasn't the case. The burns were the result of the light. Did anyone else sitting under those bright light experience this? What kind of lights are in that gym that could have caused such burns?

Yes, I agree with every statement made. Our high school in souther ct could host it 20 times better. That place completely blows. There has got to be a better spot. There should NEVER be a single elimination at this level of sports and this level of commitment (for parents time, money etc).

32 man bracket is a must. It is really a simple solution to a complex problem. Top seeds get buys, how hard is that?

As far as alternative locations? I am not sure, form a committee and look around. Don't just sit around and accept present conditions, after all, that is what is taught to kids. How can kids take "improve your lot in life" speeches if adults just sit around and act helpless with as something as simple as a wrestling tourny?

If they want a central spot then i think they should host it back at North Andover where they had it three years ago. Its in mass and they gym was large enough to seat everyone comfortably and have enough mats. Granted its not the hillhouse which im sure all of us CT people would enjoy to see, but we can't always get what we want. And i defiantly dont agree with adding more wrestler's if you look at who made it to the finals the majority of the kids were the number one seeds I think one kid who got third made it and another who got second made it but the rest were all first in their state so adding more just seems like a longer tournament and in my opinion a waste of time.

Contact the New England Council by going to the below link;

http://cnesspa.ezstream.net/content/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask&ChnID=32&SubID=-1&chncd=32,-1&Org=cnesspa&CFID=3560111&CFTOKEN=4488599

These are the people that run New Englands. Let's share our ideas with them in big numbers. At least let's whine enough to get New England's changed to full double elimination. Please help.

Keep this thread alive. Do your part and contact the council. It will only take a few minutes of your time and everyone will benefit in the long-run if enough complaints are submitted. If you sit back and do nothing-nothing will ever change and you will not have the right to complain about how things are done.

does anyone want my opinion? you know i have a ton fo a sugestions.

Yeah the gym was litterally like at maximum capacity, i was at the coaches meeting and its kinda apparent most people want Double elimination. How does it feel to place top 4,6 ect... in your state and work that hard to go to new englands and they treat you with a rat/pigtail?

middle school and elementary new englands are held in better locations..how could we get them to hold the high school new englands in a civic center or a arena that could meet everyones needs....maybe rotate each year and the tournament could be held in each states capital....and about the 32 man bracket...i'm all for that....i had to watch my son who was 30-0 for the year..135-17 over all lose his first match and sit out the rest of the tournament because the kid who beat him lost his next match...hard to sit in the stands watching others wrestle that you know your son beat during the season...life goes on and its been a fun ten years...good luck to all in the future..did any one elese get sunburned at the tournament....

Be careful what you wish for. You know, there is a proper chain of command for these things. CT has a rep for New England wrestling. Has anyone ever approached that rep and asked that these concerns be taken to the Council? Complaining about it in forums won't solve anything.

People who want 32 man brackets have no idea what they are talking about. How is this going to fit into a two day tournament when you can't start until 5pm on Friday? And don't talk about getting out of school early or wrestling on Sunday. The states do not support this. Some states have it written into their constitution that there will be no Sunday activities. The kid from Caribou had to travel 10 hours to get to Lowell. Not everyone can get everywhere quickly.

You want double elimination? An obvious move would be to cut back on the number of entrants. Let's see... 5 for MA, 3 for CT, 2 each for RI, ME, NH, VT. Of course MA will argue that they need six, so maybe CT only gets two. That will create a nice 16-man tournament. The will fit nicely in a two-day double elimination format. And of course, this will allow the council to redo the seeding chart to eliminate any favoritism to CT and MA, which several of the states are complaining about.

Follow the man to the semifinals? It has only been in the rule book for 50 years. It helps with big tournaments. While it is true that upsets happen, the answer to this is easy... don't get upset.

It is true that the New Englands have outgrown Lowell. With that said, it is easy for people to sit back and complain without offering a solution. Is everyone supposed to go to New Haven every year? Should the Caribou kid travel 14 hours instead?

Voicing your opinion is fine. Just be careful what you wish for. Come up with a plan and take it to your state rep. That is better than complaining in a forum.

Ok so your argument is that because its been on the books that way for 50 years means that its a good way to run the tournament?? Thats about as dumb as when people say something like a million people cant be wrong. Yes they can, just like just because something has been run the same way for however many years doesn't mean that its the best way to run the tournament.

Plus one way to speed up these tournaments, especially new englands, is to simply have more referees. I mean they close down mats and switch down to 4 mats instead of 6 and that slows things down so much. I understand that in the semis they uses two referees, so you have more refs so that you can run the semi's on the first 2 mats and consi's on the the other 4. I can understand wanting to wrestles the semis for the same weight class at the same time, but why do you have to hold up the consolations too... thats just dumb. And then a 2 hour break in the middle of the day?? C'mon people just want to get home, alot of people have a long way to drive as you mentioned. Why take a 2 hour break between the consi semis and the consi finals?? And then makes people leave and repay to get back into the gym.... you would think we were at the NCAA div I tournament, ITS HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING!! Your main complaint is that running a 32 man true double elimination would take 3 days to run, but to me i see plenty of changes that could be made to the schedule that would allow the tournament to be run in the same amount of time. And of course it would be even less of a problem to do it if you held it at a facility that was suitable for that type of tournament. I mean if you held it at New Haven or somewhere that could hold like 8-10 mats then it would be even less of a problem.

Of course this is just my opinion. But these are things that could easily be changed to help better the tournament and makes things more fair for kids that have wrestled and fought and battled all season long to have an chance to wrestle in a tournament like New Englands. But the sad thing is that nothing will probably get done because the council is basically a bunch of the good old boys who dont like to make changes because its what they were used to in the past. If you want to give me a legitimate reason why this pigtail format is so much better I am all ears. But dont tell me that you do it to save time. Thats a pretty crappy excuse to give a kid who watched his season get flushed away because he had a bad first round and his whole season and tournament rested in another wrestlers hands....

So, you want to eliminate admissions AND move to a bigger facility? I am not sure that adds up. Also, why is it that everyone thinks it is their god-given right to be invited to this tournament? I remember when I qualified, I was just grateful to have a chance to go. And I went one and done.

As for adding mats, nine woman can't have a baby in one month.

What are you talking anout old grappler. This tournament is run like s h i t and people have been complaining about it for years. A 32 man bracket and double elimination can and should be run. It can be run on Saturday and Sunday because it is an invitational and the season was officaily over after the kids state championship. But it can be run on Friday and Saturday just use enough mats (8-10) for the first two rounds of championship and consi rounds. Its about bettering the sport for wrestling and the kids.

oldctgrappler is right.
A true 32 man bracket would be a joke. As it is now the tourn. is alittle watered down.
win your 1st match and move on. If you lose and are eliminated learn from it.

Hey old grappler, the name of this post is "tournament observations". This forum is a place for people t vent frustrations, give some options and praise the good. Stop slammin people. Here is an idea, say something like this:

"Hey, good point, any ideas how to fix it?"

Don't give us the "it's worked so far" crap. That is why we went from walking, to horses, to trains, to cars, to planes...necessity is the mother of invention.

The CT states and NE tournys need SERIOUS improvements, so the powers in charge need to TAKE CHARGE and improve things.

Quit the friggin excuses, you know what they say about excuses...

Just Do It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A 32 man bracket wouldn't make sense.
Out of the NE place winners from CT, only 3 guys were not Open Finalists.
And those 3 all took 3rd at Opens:
Mike Battinelli at 130, Mike Vernik at 140, and Pierre-Saint at 145.
Battinelli was in a very tough 130 weight class and was the 3rd best wrestler at 130 in CT, but Vernik and Pierre-Saint probably would of made the finals if they were on the other side of the bracket.
NO OPEN 4TH PLACE FINISHERS WON MEDALS AT THE NEW ENGLANDS
Hell, only 4 of them won there 1st matches, and NONE of them won 2 matches.
WHAT WOULD THE POINT BE OF SENDING OUR 5TH AND 6TH PLACE WINNERS BE?

I do agree that the "single elimination unless you lose to a semi-finalist" system should be changed, but the tournament does NOT need anymore competitors.

Not slamming anyone. Sorry of you took it that way. But some people need a reality check. RI had four place finishers total. In almost all instances except a few, the #3's did not win a match. MA is the usual exception, although a NH #3 and ME #3 both made finals. So going to a 32-man bracket does not make a ton of sense when you consider the limited time and area sizes available.

Letting the states have three people is good because you get the occassional upset at states. But giving them more than that? And guaranteeing them two matches? I am not sure that is a valid argument. In a perfect world, yes.

There are two sides to every argument. Just saying you want 32-man, bigger arenas, more mats, more refs, less breaks, etc. does not make it a valid argument. I assume there are valid reasons why some of this is not done. I am sure much of it revolves around money.

Is Lowell too small? Yes. But name another place that is mid-size, other than New Haven, that the championships could go to? Most of the colleges have commitments to their basketball teams and hockey teams this time of year.

I'm not slamming. Just debating. Things are not as simple as people want to paint them. That is all I am saying.

NEW HAVEN

First of all just because you feel that adding more people wouldn't make any sense doesn't mean that it wouldn't. I can give you a perfect example this year. lets say we did add more and CT gets 6. Jon Fiorillo wasn't at NE's because of his religious beliefs, and i give him all the respect in the world for making a stand for what he believes in, but because he did so he took 6th in a tournament where he probably should have at least gotten 3rd. Now He would have def made it pretty far in NE's. How bout times where maybe a wrestler who deserves to be there gets a concussion in the medal rounds and cant compete and subsequently ends up missing NE's. Does this always happen.... no it doesn't, but i would say that i happens enough in a sport as dangerous as wrestling that its hard to say that letting in more people is dumb.

Plus how is talking about using more mats or refs or anything like that not trying to come up with a solution. I stated before that it was ridiculous to make people pay twice on the second day.... and it is! If your holding it at a high school like Lowell. If you decided to hold it at a seperate arena where cost is an issue than thats a separate issue. And c'mon oldctgrappler do you really think that ever college or arena is New England is booked up with events for friday and saturday night??. We used the parking lot for the Tsagus Arena friday and sat night and i didnt see one sole walk to or from that arena that whole time!! It isn't taken to places like that because they like making the money they do on those tournaments and do want to shell out extra cash when they feel its perfectly fine where it is. It would be just as easy to run a 32 man with 8-10 mats on the floor.

And for the record oldctgrappler it is their right to be there and have a chance to wrestle and control there own fate if they have earned it. I dont think you would actually be dumb enough to publicly say that you think there was 1 kid at that tournament that didnt deserve to be there. These kids put in a lot of hours of blood sweat and tears just like you did and they deserve better when they get there. They deserve the right to control their own destiny in a tournament of that nature. And those that control all these things have a job to serve these kids and they need to remember that.

Lowell sucked, i think everyone can agree on that.

BUT I disagree with the idea that those kids DESERVE to be there. It isn't a RIGHT, it is a PRIVILEGE. It is an opportunity that they have earned by placing in the top 4 of the state open.
Injuries happen, if a kid gets a concussion and falls to 6th place, then he can not earn the privilege to wrestle. Injuries can happen at any point, and if this kid that "deserves to wrestle at New Englands" gets injuried in the quarterfinals then what? What happens if he's injured at practice on Thursday before Opens? You're being ridiculous with this argument.
And the religious kid did the right thing, he made a very hard decision based on his on personal beliefs and therefor lost his chance to earn a spot, but he prioritized and sacrificed for a belief that he must hold pretty close to him. That display of character will serve him a lot better in 20 years than any medal he might have earned.

They do DESERVE a better venue though. That place was terrible.

neprdictions i didnt say that those kids who were injured or for whatever reason finished outside the top 4 deserved to be there. I was just making a point that to say that opening up a 32 man bracket and letting more people in is dumb was a dumb remark. That there are scenarios that take place all the time that people outside the top 4 could make some noise. I didnt say we should open it up to the top 6 to get these people in, just that there are scenarios where people outside the top 4 could make some noise in New Englands.

Yes, and MA will argue that it is their 7's and 8's that should be the ones to go. They already want that. Seriously, a 6th place wrestler is a 3-time loser at states. Do you really think that they deserve to go to New Englands and get two more chances? Do you think the 4's from RI, NH, ME, and VT deserve to go? They are two-time losers in their own state already. So, where do the 32 guys you are asking for come from? Not for nothing, but some of these kids are so overmatched that they could get hurt.

I agree that Lowell is a bad facility. You can also get me to agree that double elimination is the more desirable format provided that kids are allowed adequate rest between matches.

But 32-bracket full double in two days? That is potentially eight matches in two days if you come through the wrestlebacks! This is tough New England competition at the end of the season. Kids are worn down. MA has just come off a grueling all state the week before. So has CT. This is how kids get hurt. And don't tell me they are in the best shape of their life. They are still kids at this age and their bodies break down.

The only way to go to double elimination is to drop to a 16-man bracket.

I agree with oldctgrappler...the NE tournament is a tournament for the BEST so adding too many wrestlers would in a way "water it down". im definately not saying that wresters who did not make it to NEs would not place, but as they said before, the facts dont lie...no CT 4s placed, so no sense in sending more really

lowell high SUCKS as a location. no parking. small gym. not enough room for efficient warming up or if there was a spot, the security was always shooing the wrestlers away. im sure that some university or arena can give up a spot for a weekend for a high school NE tourny...i mean Danbury was able to us Western CT University's gym for their match VS Mt. Anthony that time