Yea, Bowman deserved it in my opinion too but the vote was done prior to New Englands.Think Bowman might have lost only a couple of times this season, once to Vollaro and then one other I think.
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Bowman got snubbed. It's pretty clear cut that he's the connecticut wrestler of the year when he's the only connecticut wrestler to win New Englands. Not to mention the convincing fashion that he did it in; pinning his way through S's, pinning his way to the open finals, and pinning his way to the New England Finals.
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Charlie Costanzo, Danbury's 119 won the OW for the season.
As with all awards, you can always make an argument for others to have won it. The real test is to come up with a reason why the person who won it shouldn't have. In Charlie's case, there is no argument against him winning it. He came back from a potentially career ending injury. He won his conference, states and the Open and made the New England finals. A good resume and definitely deserving of the award. No disrespect intended towards the other wrestlers who had great years.
Congrats Charlie, you earned and deserve the award.
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Don't forget that Costanzo is a 2X open champ now and only a junior--very impressive.
Bowman no doubt worked very hard offseason, turned it up a few notches as the season progressed and had a great year but the votes were done before New Englands when he became our only champion.
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There is no doubt that the award could go to Costanzo due to his tremendous accomplishments but I would have to side on the argument that was layed out for Bowman in the initial posts. The award is called "Wrestler of the Year" and as such, consideration should be confined to this year alone and not previous performances. Although Bowman may have lost a couple matches during the season, the drive to continue toward what he achieved and to do it so convincingly should count as plenty for the award. If Mr. Ford is correct and the award is given before the post season circuit, then it would be a safe bet that Bowman's performance would have changed the vote have the committee waited a few weeks longer. Remember, in the eyes of all New England, Bowman is Connecticut. Regardless of the outstanding acheivements of our state, he stands there alone.
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In the Bowman case. Yea Charlie had a great career but it is called wrestler of the year. Yea-Charlie won the open and the LL Bowman wrestled and dominated every match all year, lets see if vote is done b4 New Englands Bowman out shines Charlie totally are you gonna skip the fact that Bowman wrestled 8 possible matches and pinned 7!!!!! Come on LOOK at what Charlie did and compare. Remember wrestler of the year!!!!!Lucas was robbed point blank.He dominated allyear his coach must know he is gonna get 6 every match,congrats Lucas you had a hell of a year...
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What about Andrew Ford. He also won his league tournament,class M's, state open and finished second at NE's. Only one loss, and no one dominated his weight class like Andrew did. If this voting took place before NE's than how could you not award it to Ford.
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uhhh no way should ford be considered in this. He didnt "dominate" connecticut. Bowman, Bowman, Bowman, Bowman. Bowman is indeed to New England, Connecticut Wrestling..there for BOWMAN should be 08-09 CT WRESTLER OF THE YEARRRR. no doubt.
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plussss he Pinned his way through S's. Pinned to the finals of Opens. Pinned to the Finals of NE's. did Costanzo or Ford accomplish this?? uhhh noo. Bowman should have got it hands down, no questions asked, if you disagree then you dont know real wrestling and what dominating is. Bowman Dominated.
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my feeling is that the award should go to a senior unless there is clearly and indisputably Connecticut's best wrestler. charlie is great and is possibl the best wrestler in connecticut but it is definatley not clear or indisputable. If the vote was before new englands, then it should have gone to vollaro,he bumped up and beat the open champ at the next weight up, how many wrestlers could do that? if the vote was after new englands then choosing either valloro or bowman would be acceptable.
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ECC is always dogged in these polls for OW. Last year, Hightower was just as worthy as Fish, yet Fish got it. No argument there, it was a close one. Bowman pins his way through almost every tournament including New Englands, except for the finals and still nothing. The last 2 I could remember to get it from ECC were Crudden and Hepburn, which was a no contest of course. But unless it's as undeniable as that, ECC tends to comes up short. Costanzo is still a great wrestler and does indeed deserve OW but, I do find it odd that Bowman didn't get it. His only loss I can think of was to Vollaro and that was by like 1 point. Vollaro took 2nd at New Englands too, so its not like he lost to a nobody. There's always an argument for who should've/could've/would've but it doesnt matter. Costanzo got it, end of story. He deserves it.
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bowman took only third at ecc's because he was diqualified from his semis match but i still think he should have won it but congrats to charlie for winning he is still very deserving
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There should be only 14 candidates for these three awards. The Open champs in each weight class. Then, the criteria I would use to eliminate candidates would be this;
1. Candidate must have finished first in their conference and their states.
2. Any head to head matchups would promote the winner above his competitor.
3. If still not down to one candidate, unbeaten in state.
4. Still no champion? Then, a game of musical chairs is organized.
If the voting took place after New Englands, the highest placer at New Englands in each weight group would get the award.
Under these criteria, here's how it would look;
Pre-New England
Lightweights-Charlie Costanzo, Danbury and Ross Spencer, E Lyme, one chair, one round, winner takes all.
Middleweights-Joe Sargenti, S Windsor, Andrew Ford, Bethel and Kyle Lundberg, Guilford(undefeated in state?) two rounds, first round, two chairs, one guy out...second round, one chair, winner takes all.
Heavyweights-Tim Vollaro, Somers, and Lawton Arnold, Simsbury, one round, winner takes all.
Post New England
Lightweights-Charlie Costanzo, Danbury
Middleweights-Andrew Ford, Bethel
Heavyweights-Lucas Bowman, St Bernards
So, after considering all this, I can understand how it would be even more difficult for the voters just to select one deserving candidate. And this is just with the criteria that I described. I'm sure many coaches consider intangibles when registering their votes also.
In the end, overall, Charlie Costanzo gets the one award if I have a vote. He is one of two in the first criteria in his weight group and the higher placer at New England in his weight group. Of course, if the vote is done before New Englands...then...well...get the chairs out and plug the speakers into the IPOD.
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To me we had 2 outstanding candidates on everyones mind at the start of the season: Costanzo and Ford. As the season progressed Bowman was emerging and in a weight class that was particularly deep and I also considered Vollaro as well. What hurts some candidates is that the voting is done prior to New Englands. I really dont think that you could go wrong with any of them. What Bowman did during the tournament protion of the season was quite special and its a shame that he didnt get it but thats the way its done. The question now is who will get it next year?
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Ok, had to research a lil bit and discovered that Bowman lost to Koch 215 11-4, Vallaro 2-1 @189. It is crazy to think that after his loss to Vallaro he pinned everybody until State open finals, wow what a beast!!!! Coachs should not vote for wrestler of the year, it should be a seperate crew made up of the wrestling state poll voters, who know wrestling, who know the coach's. Connecticut wrestling is way to political, we are behind a step, Rhode Island has passed us in growing, it is time 4 coachs to make changes and the CIAC!!!!!!
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Coaches do vote for the state poll, who else would you want to vote? they are the only ones who could and should vote because they see the kids in person all season long, bowman got snubbed cuz he's in S even though he showed whats he's got in opens and ne's, he simply didnt wrestle the quality of kids costanzo wrestled. voting for WOY is a tough job because their are so many great kids but when all is said and done the coaches got it right. Costanzo lost to guzman in the finals 5 - 1 who went 41 - 0 this year. thats impressive.
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Impossible to get an award like this right. How can say 10 coaches from western CT accuratley grade a wrestler from eastern CT? So maybe they've seen the wrestler 2 or 3 times throughout the year. So what? Everybody has bad days...or good days. Bottomline is...you vote for who you know regardless. Costanzo had a rep coming into the year because he won NE's last year. Bowman was not very well known. They voted for the familiar name.
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Every year the same thing happens and every year we hear the same complaints. So and so won the New Englands he should have won wrestler of the year.
Fact is the voting is done before the New Englands. Same for the Team, the coaches etc. Very possible for team to win the opens and then another team win the New Englands. People would be screaming about that too.
So lets just take it that wrestler of the year is prior to New Englands. That being said. Costanzo was undefeated in Connecticut. He won his conference, the LL's and the State Open. Bowman lost a few matches in season in Connecticut, placed 3rd in the conference, won the Class S and the State Open. Based on those stats how could the award not go to Costanzo.
The sad thing will be that since he won this year people will probably go out of their way not to vote for him next year. Even if he has the same exact season.
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Coach While I understand your point of view, we most understand that "Wrestler of the year" shouldn't stop before the "year" is complete.
This sport teaches us to go hard for 6 mintues not 5.
I think it is a slap in the face to our wrestlers not to have a true wrestler of the year. When we only have one Kid win New Englands and he doesn't represent our state as wrestler of the year, it will always raise questions. My kid won new englands a few years back and he was the only Ct kid to do so as well, he didn't get honored as wrestler of the year either. Fair??? Voting rules were followed, but how hard would it be to vote after the New Englands were completed?? So questions don't get raised and kids don't get screwed.
While I can say Charlie probably deserves it based on the voting schedule, I don't think he was heads above the rest (Ford, Sargenti, Vollaro and others). I can certainly say that Bowman in my eyes was the wrestler of the year when it was all said and done. 189 was much deeper than 119, the only contender at 119 didn't even wrestler in the tournament. I can also say that 189 had 5-10 top notch kids. Plus he beat a stud in the finals who was the favorite to win the whole thing and placed 3rd last year at New Englands. His only loses were to Vollaro, a runner up in New Englands, and Koch. The other wasn't a loss. But to do what he did from States to New Englands was just nasty.
I would hope that your last statment doesn't ring true. If Charlie deserves it next year he should win it. It should not matter if he won it this year or not. I do however think we will have a lot more comp for it. Ct should have a strong year next year..
Pleas don't take this as a knock on Charlie, he did great and I certainly love to watch him on the mat. This was just another issue that we need to adjust, to me its common sense to others it may not be!!!
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So,with that said, realistically shouldn't we wait until after Senior Nationals to vote? Last year, Banks placed in the biggest tourney high school wrestling has to offer. A greater feat than winning New Englands. Should we wait to evaluate the wrestlers entire body of work? Other states have Wrestlers of the Year that have National pedigree. Let's wait and do it right. I agree with the comment that was made on this site that too many CT teams,coaches, and wrestlers goals are way too short sighted. It should be on not only New Englands, but placing at Nationals!
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Even after new englands was said and done I still think Costanzo should have won, not like he didnt place or anything, pretty sure he took 2nd, as a junior... I think alot of weight goes on the fact hes a Junior, and went undefeated up to his last match of the year.
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I am not gonna go over your whole post. I agree with your theory. I get your point. My point is that the voting is done before New Englands. If it was done after we might not be having this argument , we would be having a different one. The one where a kid gets into New Englands as a four seed and somehow wins it after placing 4th in LL, and 4th in open. There are always gonna be ways you can look at it differently for each wrestler. The only thing I really disagree with you on is comparing weight classes. Which one is tougher. Not fair. Costanzo wrestled whoever was put in front of him. I bet many people went up or down a weight class to avoid him. If Johnston don't make weight not Costanzo's fault he showed up ready to wrestle. If he had made weight and Costanzo beat him would that change anything?
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Being a New England Champ isn't the be all end all to the voting, however we should wait. I've seen really good wrestlers lose in NE's to guys that are amazing. ie... Dussol lost in NE's twice to Dakota Cotten (OW) & still deservedly won wrestler of the year for CT. I don't think him losing to Cotten would have affected anybody's vote considering Dussol hadn't given up a single takedown that year before the NE finals. Now someone said nationals... I don't think placing alone should be a consideration. There are weight classes at nationals with 95 entries, & some with only 25-30. Placing top 8 out of 40 isn't the same as placing top 8 out of 80. Not to mention that ALL the coaches don't have enough knowledge to compare national performances. Let's just wait until NE's is over & this conversation will be dead.
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Coach you are correct that it isn't Charlies fault. I would never say that it was. I know Charlie was heads above the rest because of the level he is on. In my opinion he was the best 119 no matter who made the open or not. I just think that 189 was much deeper this year. Last year that probably wasn't the case. If I was voting I would of taken that in to account, just like you would at a tournament. Charlie certainly deserves the award. Even if they voted after the New Englands, you can make a case for Charlie. I was just pointing out the fact that I think it makes sense to wait until New Englands is over. Back in the 90's we had tough comp amongst our guys. In some cases we had open champs lose to open runner ups in the finals of New Englands. Now if that happened who deserves wrestler of the year if it came down to them. I would say the New England Champ. See My point!! Makes sense to wait, unless I am missing something.
Now about waiting to Nationals, I do not think that would be logical. Many kids can't and do not practice full time for it, let alone go to it. Many kids play different sports which would have started before the nationals. You are on the right track but you went to far on that one.
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lol doesnt really matter, not going to change the fact that Costanzo is this years OW... Lucas Bowman will not be the OW of 2009, its impossible now. So lets not make a huge deal out of it, some people think its crap, some people think its not. No point in arguing it cuz now its almost like crapping on Costanzo who is very good. Sorry Bowman, tough luck but sometimes calls go the other way. Something you will witness many more times in your life.. Congratulations both.
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I disagree with voting after NE's. If it's to determine CT's wrestler of the year then having the cutoff after all CT only tournaments makes sense. Winning NE's is great and deserves recognition but what's wrong with keeping it in state only? It's not like the award labels you as the best wrestler of all time. It's a state award. Keep it to that. I'm sure Bowman is still in his glory as being the only 2009 CT New England Champion. Congrat's to Bowman & Costanzo for his award.
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That was a good one.LOL.
What you guys aren't getting is we weren't arguing with each other, we were communicating. At no time did either of us bash the other. We were just trying to get our points accross in a civil manner. Learn from it!!!
But for those of you who think we are doing it right now, that is fine. I choose to think we are doing our wrestlers and state wrong. It is the most recognized award this state shells out to our wrestlers. I would think we would want it to represent the whole story.
To turn a blind eye on a possible jaded system and just brush it under the rug is not the answer. All that has been done for too long and look where we are. I know most are affraid of change. But some times it is for the better, not just to get elected. LOL
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I think the start of this post was already an argument. People arguing that Bowman should have won it... Arguing is a form of communicating... I didnt say its wrong to argue, just think this has kinda went as far as it should only because for instance a person like Charlie comes online and sees guys going back and fourth arguing that someone else deserved the award he won. Im sure no one means to put anyone down intentionally but unintentionally ya kinda are. Now this post has turned away and is now all about how the voting system should work.. I dunno I dont think it really matters cuz I seriously doubt it is going to change because of a few opinions. The wrestler was selected based on his performance in the state. Some think you should count the New Englands. I dont think you should... Were talking about the CT best wrestler and how he competes in CT. Thats the same reason when I researched all my ranked wrestlers records I did not include the New England tournament. Other wise you would have undefeated CT wrestlers with blemishes from out of state opponets when in reality it shouldnt count because im ranking them in CONNECTICUT based on their CONNECTICUT performance... But thats just my opinion and I guess all this is everyone elses opinions so really doesnt matter but I just thought this could be almost insulting to a CT wrestler but hey thats what the forum is for I guess...opinions....
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Hey nolimit, If you are only counting CT matches are you excluding matches that Danbury wrestles out of state, and the teams that wrestle at the MAU tourney, and the kids who wrestle out of state kids at the Ridgefield challenge and the Eagle Classic and any of the other out of state matches wrestled by CT kids? What about matches against prep school kids that the CIAC doesn't count for seding but are part of a kids record if wrestled?
Perhaps the definition of what the state wrestler of the year is needs to be outlined - Dnowa - care to take a shot at organizing that one? Is it the best kid within the boundries of the state or truely the best wrestler up against anyone? The award will always be convoluted due to subjectivity of peoples' opinions and views.
Congrats Charlie.
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so I added all the losses and wins from NE's... Only one returning wrestler finished the year with undefeated.. Anyone wanna take a guess?? Hes the only one to place and return with an undefeated season in 09.
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so let me get this right the votes are in before new englands.....so what happened last year???? fish gets ow for year but he does not have near the accomplishments as hightower, banks and cootu. what a joke.........
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When I started reading this topic i was so ready to question the whole "Votes are in before NEs situation" But Wrestler285 took the words out of my mouth.
I have absolutely no problem with Derek Fish being the State Wrestler of the year for 08. I love Derek hes a great kid and was my drill partner in the off season at MarcAureles. But Fact is if they voted before NEs there is no way he would of gotten the award. No doubt fish is a phenomenal wrestler but he lost in season were as tyler banks and brock were undeafeated until the NE finals i beleive and Hightower went undefeated until SR nationals.
From a coaches standpoint I beleive most coaches would of under rated derek... and would of even underrated hightower and would of gone with banks or coutu.
Banks and Coutu were the Hepburns and Cruddens of 08... you could say.
The states "Golden Boys" They ended up with tough losses at NEs but if the voting came before NEs then i beleive they should of got it.
But people say voting came b4 NEs.. if that is the case I dont beleive understand how Hightower or Fish would of been considered...
Not because they arent good but because they had MUCH closer matches at OPENS then TYLER AND BROCK did.
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I've read this saga post on a daily basis. To me it's simple. You can't vote for the "Wrestler of the year" until the season is complete. New England results MUST be taken into account.
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If New England's are taken into account, should Sr. Nationals be too? I didn't win NE's and didn't get wrestler of the year, but placed at Sr nationals. What about Cammissa? Didn't win NE's but placed at Sr nationals. I think Sr Nationals are too late but New England's definitely have to be taken into account, and if Sr nationals were a week or two earlier, the award should be after that too. Bran didn't win NE's but got it while TJ had a superior year (won NE's and Jr Nationals). Stavola won NE's and the state open but Dussol got it.
I guess there's no clear cut criteria in picking it. It's not about just winning State Open (because Brock was the outstanding of the State Open, didn't lose a match until NE finals which could mean wrestler of the year), or just winning NE's (dussol, bran), or placing at seniors (me, cammissa). It's more or less an opinion and it can be argued, but there really can't be criteria like 'whoever wins NE's' because more than one or none could win it.
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