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December 7 2004 at 9:37 AM
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Response to Re: I am telling YOU that Ukrainians are allergic to Poles

 
>>I have to concur. This is but one of many forums that I frequent. I have observed that there is an abiding animosity from Poles to all things Russian (and/or Soviet). It is as if these Polish posters have made it their task in life to attack anything Russian. It reminds me of the Nazi rhetoric against the Jews.<<

Could be more specific and explain what exactly reminds you Nazi rhetoric against Jews, please!

>>Way back when, Poland was dissolved and split between Austria-Hungary, Germany and Russia. The kingdom was weak, the government was ineffective, and Poland was geographically in the worst possible place. In 1918 Poland was resurrected thanks to the idiots at Versailles. A century later, we still suffer from their arrogance. The new Polish state showed that it was as greedy as the worst of the Great Powers, invading Galicia and Ukraine, only to be driven back by the nascent USSR. As it existed between 1920 and 1939, Poland could not survive — Prussia and Germany could not be kept separate, despite the wishes of Britain and France. Versailles was a collective brain fart. The Danzig Corridor was a stupid, but convenient concept. It was a red flag for Germany, and it is no surprise that Germany acted to eliminate it.<<

You have a right to have your own vision of history. If the vision is true, strict and accurate it is another problem. I am not going to discuss somebody’s likes or dislikes.

>>In 1939 thay elected to do so. The struck a deal with the USSR, with which they had a common interest. Don't attack us, let take western Poland back, and we'll give you back Galicia. No problem. A good deal for both parties. So Germany invaded Poland and the USSR invaded Poland, and they both took back what they considered was theirs.<<

Broke by the way the peace treaties which were signed by both aggressors. How can you describe such behavior, treacherous is the correct word?

>>Britain and France had issues with the way Hitler was doing things, not with the inavasion of Poland (or they would also have declared war against the USSR!), thus war was declared. Poland, after the Rhineland and Czechoslovakia and Austria, was the first victim. Big deal. The Brits and French were concerned about Germany, not Poland.<<

You forgot mention that Poland also did not declare war against the Soviet Union. Personally I think that was a big mistake.

>>Have you ever wondered why Poland invaded Czechoslavakia in 1938, and not Germany? The Wehrmacht in 1938 was very weak, and Poland alone could probaby have driven them from the field.<<

Indeed it was very, very weak as well as well as totally unprepared to war the Soviet Union. Germans had 51 divisions (including 5 panzer divisions and 4 motorized) and further 20 reserve divisions. How many had Poland in 1938? I hope that you probably have any information about Polish Army in 1938?

>>Poland was crushed by the 1939 Wehrmacht. The Red Army came in after the fact to pick up their pieces. Germany was reunited, Galicia was once again Russian territory, Poland was again relegated to a rump state, Gouvernement or Grand Duchy, same difference. Poland was a vassal of greater nations.<<

It was not a vassal because Poles did not cooperate with both aggressors. No capitulation was signed. Maybe victim is better description?

>>Polish forces fought with the British, Polish forces fought with the Soviets, Polish forces fought on their own. They all fought Nazis. They did well — no doubt about it. Polish forces fought with courage and valour, in Italy, in Northern Europe, and with the Red Army. They helped defeat teh Germans.<<
>>In the postwar world, Poland was again resurrected. This time there is no Ostpreußen, no Danzig Corridor, but a contiguous state. Poland is completely in rteh spere of interest of the USSR — between East and West, again a victim of geography and Realpolitik. It is fate. It is not the first time. It is no surprise.<<
It is quite fair for me.

>>The USSR reacted to the Cold War, the breakdown in relations between the Truman Administraton and Stalin's USSR, by establishing puppet Communist regimes in the countries that separated the Soviet Union from the West. First and foremost was Poland, a buffer aginst potential aggression from the traditional German enemy. Polish leaders had to appease the USSR, but beyond that, they ruled as they saw fit. Europe moved into two camps as events polarised, and again, Poland, a victim of geography, aligned itself with the USSR.<<

If you considered Polish People Republic as independent country you are totally wrong. But for sure you have right to have different opinion.

>>All this was predictable, and unavoidable.<<

Was it?

>>So now I must ask— why is it that we in the west hear endless complaints about how the dirty bastard Russians slaughtered thousands of Polish soldiers at Katyn, about how they failed to support the anti-Communist uprising in Warsaw in 1944, about how they crushed Polish democracy in the postwar world? Why do we not hear more about the millions of Polish Jews that were murdered by the Nazis?<<

What make you join this separate cases? Should I blame Russians for German crimes???

>>Is it because they were Jews, therefore not Poles?<<

How many Jews survived thanks yours nation help?? Should I blame Russians for German crimes on Jews??? The only difference between Poles and Polish Jews was that we were next in the queue to be murdered.

>>Why do we not hear more about the hundreds of thousands of Catholic Poles that were murdered by the Nazis?<<

The same question as above.

>>Why is death at the hands of the NKVD more significant than death at the hands of the SS or Gestapo?<<

Why do you suppose that it is more significant? The only difference between death at the hands of the SS/Gestapo and NKVD is that the Russian’s crimes have not been punished yet. Germans had Nuremberg. Russians not. Nobody in Poland want to hang up perpetrators, everybody just want to know who was responsible for crimes. Is it a difference???

>> Why do Poles consider the Russians as evil incarnate, without so much as a whisper about the atrocities committed by the Germans? Poles suffered at the hands of both the Germans and the Russians, but in the overall scheme of things, what the Russians may have done pales in comparison with the atrocities committed by the Nazis. So why is it that while the Germans killed a thousand times more Poles than the Soviets, the Russians are hated a thousand times more than the Germans? It makes no sense to me.<<

If somebody cut your smallest finger and somebody else the bigger one it might seem to me that the first crime looks paler to the second (because of size) but I do not suppose that you want be the object of such operation and you find my comparison right after such operation. I think that only Poles can properly assess the harm.
Even if we consider only the numbers you are totally wrong - 1000 killed by Germans to 1 killed by Soviets??? How did you get it??? Do you have any idea how many Poles was killed by Russian from 1939 to 1945?

 
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  • reply - Wojciech on Dec 9, 2004, 3:37 AM
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