Scott Fraser

"So why is it that while the Germans killed a thousand times more Poles than the Soviets, the Russians are hated a thousand times more than the Germans? It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?"

Sure, that's easy to explain. The Nazi's murdered countless Polish Jews, and countless more Euro Jews in general. Some morons still deny it, but everyone else knows that it's true. Germany has been, an continues to pay dues for that period of it's history. Good for Germany. As a nation, it has taken responsibility for it's past deeds to a great degree. Hitler was a nutcase psycopath, but he was the leader of Germany, and the people share responsibility.

That brings us to the zver from Georgia. Despite your fanciful description of how Polish forces fought on all fronts, for all sides, the truth remains that the thought of an equitable distribution of Poland between Germany and the CCCP was a major source of erections for Stalin. By the late thirties, much of Poland was already Soviet territory in the mind of the Georgian beast. By the way, there were no breakdown in relations between Truman and Stalin. Everyone knew at the time that the romance would only last as long as Germany was a threat. Once Germany was defeated, Stalin was able to focus his paranoia in other directions.

Back to the point. The reason why so many Polish people focus on the Russian contribution to genocide is that Stalin murdered Poles because they were Poles. Hitler murdered Polish Jews, which was bad enough, but Stalin put on the face of being a friend of Poland, murdered their political and military leadership, and then blamed the acts on Germany. During the Warsaw uprising, he let signals pass to the Poles that the Red army was near, and ready to offer support, yet he stood down his troops until Polish forces were pretty much destroyed, and then moved against the German forces.

The Georgian claimed that the Red army was tired, and needed a rest. That claim was made despite the fact that the Red army was on a Kraut killing rampage that seemed like a vacation compared to the Months when Germany had the upper hand, and Stalin sacrificed Russian men like ants while he figured out the best way to respond to Germany. The truth is that Stalin screwed the Poles because he wanted their territory as yet another buffer zone between what he was creating, and what everyone else was fighting for. That's what pissed off the Poles then, and continues to rub them wrong today. Stalin murdered Poles because they were Poles, and he was intent on owning their territory. He killed their leadership at all levels, and blamed it on the Germans. He stood by and watched the most motivated anti German Polish forces get wiped out so he could own the country once he gave the order for the Red army to move forward again, and blamed it on fatigue. Today, sixty years later, the beast from Georgia is long dead, but there is still enough sentiment for his sorry self in Russia that the government still makes excuses for the failure of the Red army to support the uprising, and refuses to accept national responsibility for an act that the rest of the world clearly understands as a means to an end that worked out as planned (for 40 years or so anyway).

You are writing about this like we had some animosity which was without reason. The animosity is based upon things from history and present which can be precisly defined.

"In 1918 Poland was resurrected thanks to the idiots at Versailles. A century later, we still suffer from their arrogance. The new Polish state showed that it was as greedy as the worst of the Great Powers, invading Galicia and Ukraine, only to be driven back by the nascent USSR."

I think I begin to see a small problem with you and our discussions- you sound like you have been a subject to a lying,dishonest propaganda-filled historical education and this is causing problems.


"invading Galicia and Ukraine, only to be driven back by the nascent USSR"

Actually Poland was not 'driven back' by the Soviets, it was Poland which has driven back the Soviets,defeated their armies and signed a peace treaty in which the Soviets had to give Poland lands in today Belarus and Ukraine.


"In 1939 thay elected to do so. The struck a deal with the USSR, with which they had a common interest. Don't attack us, let take western Poland back, and we'll give you back Galicia. No problem. A good deal for both parties. So Germany invaded Poland and the USSR invaded Poland, and they both took back what they considered was theirs."

Thank you for your honesty compared to some Russian posters I have seen on the net who claim USSR did't invade Poland at that time. <- this is NOT sarcasm BTW.

Anyway, the problems the Poles had in 1939 was not Wehrmacht.
The difference in equipment between Polish and German ground troops was significant but not completely decisive and often Polish troops stood victorious due to individual qualities of Polish soldier.
The problem for the Poles was Luftwaffe...Luftwaffe which had air superiority thanks to Messerschmit 109 and which could deal deadly precise ground attacks with Junkers and Henschel dive bombers, to which the Polish troops had no good responce because they did't have enough AA guns and overall AA guns in WWII were nowhere as effective as fighters.


"Poland is completely in rteh spere of interest of the USSR — between East and West, again a victim of geography and Realpolitik. It is fate. It is not the first time. It is no surprise.
(...)
The USSR reacted to the Cold War, the breakdown in relations between the Truman Administraton and Stalin's USSR, by establishing puppet Communist regimes in the countries that separated the Soviet Union from the West. First and foremost was Poland, a buffer aginst potential aggression from the traditional German enemy.
(...)
All this was predictable, and unavoidable."

Predictable? Yes. Few Poles expected anything than enslavement from the Soviets. Unavoidable? No, of course not.
Had Soviets/Russians been different, they could've seen that in the long way enslaving Poland could be the worser way for both sides ,that maybe leaving it free would actually be better for them in the long run. Unfortunately, this is not Russian/Soviet political culture to leave somebody not-enslaved, it is their culture to crush all independent will, to murder people and to harshly enslave nations.

The effect: Poles hate Russians. Does it benefit Russians in any way? No, of course not.

"So now I must ask— why is it that we in the west hear endless complaints about how the dirty bastard Russians slaughtered thousands of Polish soldiers at Katyn, about how they failed to support the anti-Communist uprising in Warsaw in 1944, about how they crushed Polish democracy in the postwar world?"

Because the dirty bastards did murder thousands of Polish POWs at Katyn, because they did wait and watch as the uprising was bleeding out and because they did enslave us in the post-war world.

"Why do we not hear more about the millions of Polish Jews that were murdered by the Nazis? Is it because they were Jews, therefore not Poles? Why do we not hear more about the hundreds of thousands of Catholic Poles that were murdered by the Nazis?"

I think that in the West you surely hear A LOT about the Polish Jews murdered by the Nazis- it's simply the Holocaust. About half of Jews killed in Holocaust were Polish Jews, we had the largest Jewish population in Europe.

As for Catholic Poles killed by the Nazis, I think you might be quite right: people in the West do not know enough about it.

"Why is death at the hands of the NKVD more significant than death at the hands of the SS or Gestapo?"

No, it is the same.

"Poles suffered at the hands of both the Germans and the Russians, but in the overall scheme of things, what the Russians may have done pales in comparison with the atrocities committed by the Nazis."

Yes, in terms of number of casualties, the Germans were much much worser.

I think the main reason,the core reason is that the Germans have changed their ways and openly proclaimed they are ashamed and sorry for the ways of their past.

The Russians do not seem ashamed of anything, they are like they know with part of their brain that things like Katyn or post-war enslavement of Poland were wrong, but the rest of their brain is generating different sorts of excuses and justificiations instead of facing the truth about their heritage.

I think this is it: there is no shame,there is no apology, there is no honest admission from the Russian side. <-this sentence is probably the best, ultimate answer for your question.