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Marine 351 Windsor heads?

November 10 2003 at 6:01 PM
  (no login)
from IP address 12.30.182.162

I have heard that heads used in marine applications, are better heads than stock heads for cars, trucks, cause they don't have all of the sissy smog regulations to deal with in those applications.Anybody have a comment? I was sort of considering a set if I could find a set?

Trucks

terryclark44@yahoo.com

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
12.206.171.27

Waste of money.

November 10 2003, 7:17 PM 

Whether marine or street, 302W or 351W, all are junk for any even mild performance engine. Small exhaust ports kill any hp potential (need to really bookmark this as it's often repeated here by me!). Heavy porting is iffy since you'll hit water unless the porter has experience with early Ford iron.

Best investment (in iron) is a pair of new or used GT-40 heads (not the relocated sprark plug angled GT-40P's, unless you plan to buy "P" specific headers as well. Then the "P"'s are an excellent choice) that will bolt-on and give much more hp and rpm range. As others have stated, junkyard for a '96 Explorer V-8 (not the later years) as they have the GT-40's with the std. spark plug angle. Ford still sells them and many aftermarket delears can source them. Many used sets also available on the 'Web.

Another good head is the larger World Products (same head sold under Jack Roush's nameplate) iron head. Forget the name (Windsor Senior?) but it's the larger of the two World Ford 302-351W heads.


 
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(no login)
68.218.18.176

You can make power with Iron fords heads

November 10 2003, 9:27 PM 

I have a stock 302 with marine heads 48cc camber heads and it goes 13.00's and my dad has a 351W with 69 351W heads and he goes 11.40's and these are street cars. You just have to know how to build them right and do a good port job or get someone to do it for you.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
12.206.171.27

Agree....to a point.

November 11 2003, 9:46 AM 

Just think though of how much faster either engine would be with GT-40's or, better yet, just about any alum. aftermarket head. The $$ spent to port stock OEM heads, including a rebuild, likely does not even exceed the the flow capability of dead stock GT-40's, pointing out just how poor OEM heads really are. Many back to back tests in Hot Rod, 5.0 Mustangs and a host of Ford specific magazines and websites over the years have verified this fact.

In fact, good, used GT-40's are often available for less than $250 a pair, with screw-in studs and guide plates, let alone (usually) 1.94I's and 1.54E's. Compared the the cost of overhauling stock W heads with the machine work to install the studs, plates and new and larger valves, the cost difference heavily favors the GT's.

Better yet, the alum. Canfield, AFR, Edelbrocks and others easily will give 35-55 more hp than even reworked GT-40's. Frankly, unless someone is truly bucks-down and even if they can perform their own home porting, it not worth fooling with OEM heads, IMHO.

You'll also never hear anyone complain about having to pull-off their GT-40 or alum. aftermarket heads and replace them with even ported OEM's...due to lack of power!

Try this site: www.allfordmustangs.com

Click on "Ford TECH head information comparison". Compare dead stock or ported "W" heads, steel or alum., to one another. See how much flow OEM Ford "W"
stock heads give up to just about any other head.

 
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(no login)
108.69.167.166

351 windsor heads

May 12 2011, 5:50 PM 

I have a 351 w marine engine with heads that have GT5C18 and GT5B25, I am not sure of the B on the second head, hard to read. I can't find plugs for the engine. Anyone?

 
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(Login machoneman)
67.173.112.236

Wow, 8 year old posts!

May 12 2011, 6:16 PM 

Well the heads would use any small diameter plug for later heads although Champion RV12YC's are most often noted for marine use. What size are they?

http://store.usavediscountmarine.com/Champion_RV12YC_Spark_Plug_p/chp-rv12yc.htm

 
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Catmando
(Login no5217)
152.163.253.3

??? 11 sec. on 69 heads???

November 11 2003, 4:13 PM 

You must provide some more details on that 11 sec. 69 head 351 ride!!! I've been posting around for some builds for my 69 Windsor for Bracket racing.

 
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Catmando
(Login no5217)
64.12.96.202

11 sec 351 Brandon??

November 13 2003, 5:56 PM 

Did I understand 11 sec et's with 69 351w heads??? Please more details.

 
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(Login BigBlockFalcon)
68.218.18.176

11sec stang 69 heads

November 14 2003, 7:07 AM 

Sorry I would have to get more details because it my dads car but i do know this The 351 is .030 over. The heads where ported and polished. with stainless steal valves. 2.02 intake and 1.67 exhuast. It has an Port O Sonic intake. I'm not sure what cam he has it in right now but i will ask him for all the specs.

68 Ford Falcon FE396 3190lb with me 11.65@115
73 F350 Flat bed hauler FE360 4speed
90 Ford Mustang 302

 
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(Login MsgtJoe)
75.1.90.180

Brandon,

May 12 2011, 9:28 PM 

I don't mean to argue with you, but it is not possible to install a 2.020 intake valve and then a 1.67 exhaust valve in the C9 or D0 351W heads without moving the valve guides, and it is cost prohibitive for a loss of flow. I have been porting those heads since 1972, and the largest valve that will fit safely is a 1.960 and a 1.600 exhaust. I have gotten them to flow 243cfm this way, but it is expensive. I raced a 351W +.040" for many years, and 11 second ets. are easy. I agree with Bob though, a new set of just about any aftermarket head will flow 250 cfm, and have better seats, guides, and thick walls to avoid leaks from porting the stockers within a few thousandths of their life. Jjoe-JDC.

 
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(no login)
68.218.18.176

Hey Bob just wondering

November 11 2003, 9:43 PM 

what size valves are in the GT-40 heads and what is the cc on the heads.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
12.206.171.27

Ask and you shall receive!

November 12 2003, 10:10 AM 


 
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(Login machoneman)
67.173.112.236

Hey. listen to Joe C.

May 12 2011, 11:18 PM 

as he does head porting of all kinds. I'm all for using OEM heads when rules or $ are involved but my posts tend to lean to what makes the most sense for the hobby racer/streeter. etc. One can get, no doubt, good flow from OEM head but....sometimes it pays to look to aftermarket heads for overall better deal.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Water flow in 351 Windsor marine

December 10 2012, 12:50 AM 

I have just installed new heads on the Ford Windsor 351 in my boat (the Volvo AQ240 package driving a 280 leg).

The block and heads have J-shaped voids (or holes for water circulation.

The water openings are the same - at the fore and aft ends of the block & heads.

But the Felpro head gasket for this engine has water openings only at the aft end of the gasket.

So, in effect, the gasket shuts off half the water flow - at the front end.

I searched high and low for a gasket matching the holes in the head - ie. 4 cylinders and water voids.

But numerous people reasured me I had the correct gasket. But it makes no sense.

Now I am worried I will be looking at nasty over-heat situation!

Any advice much appreciated!

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
71.239.148.199

You may be o.k.

December 10 2012, 9:15 AM 

A poster named Luchog from another site said it best:

"Head gaskets are not reversible. If you look, you can see this one is marked front. The front side of the gasket blocks off the block to head water passages. This forces the water to flow from the water pump through the block up to the head, and forward to the thermostat. Installing the gasket the wrong way will cause the water to flow straight from the pump to the thermostat, not going through the block and head, resulting in massive overheating. Don't get this wrong."

[linked image]

Fortunately, there is an easy way to tell if the head gaskets are installed correctly. Look to the lower edge, front, of each cylinder head. In the pic, note the small tab sticking out from the lower edge. Both sides MUST have this tab showing as all Ford W (and FE's for that matter) gaskets have this feature. If you find one or both tabs at the rear (stern in your case!) the gaskets have been 'reversed' and must be removed or one will have, as noted, massive overheating. Note too that all Ford W gaskets (at least all I have seen) are die-stamped "Front". This is a common problem btw.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Advice much appreciated

December 10 2012, 9:49 AM 

You have made my day!

I carefully inspected the head gasket and ensured FRONT went to the front.

And yes, the tabs are as indicated in your photo.

Moreover, your explanation concerning the direction of water flow makes good sense.

It is just that, at the time I did the gasket (about 2 weeks ago), those kidney-shaped water passages (at the aft end of the gasket) seemed awfully small. And it made no sense to block off identical water passages at the forward end (FRONT) of the block & heads.

Anyway, I just have to put on a new water hose (the big one from the bottom of the heat exchanger to the stub down the front of the engine) and I am ready to go.

I have been pretty meticulous about torquing everything down. And it is now painted Ford blue.

With this being a boat, (and it being winter), I cannot afford to have masty noises in mid-strait.

So i greatly appreciate your advice.

I am a university professor. Not a mechanic. Everyone says "hire a marine mechanic". But that is not to easy. In this computer-control-of-inventory age, there are fewer and fewer people with the necessary skills. Mostly retired (or dsemi-retired) older people. And, with a boat, the owner has to know the origin of all those creaks, groans and rattles!

Once again ... thank you!

I even re-painted the timing marks on the flywheel. So here's hoping!

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
71.239.148.199

Glad to help! n/m

December 10 2012, 12:22 PM 

n/m

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Follow-Up on Thread 1

December 29 2012, 10:04 PM 

Whoops ... I have an update on this head gasket business. Should have put it here. But accidentally dumped it in Thread 1.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

First Run on New (Rebuilt) Boat Engine

December 29 2012, 10:07 PM 

OK ... here is the update.

I earlier asked here about Windsor head gaskets with water passages only on the aft end (in a boat). This, when the block and heads has water passages at the front and aft ends. I was reassured about this and told to ensure the gasket corners poked out from the front corners of the heads. They do! Because I saw the word FRONT on the Fel-Pro gasket!

I have replaced the heads on the Ford Windsor in my boat (Volvo AQ240 package) and today went for a run. At first there was pinging at 2500 rpm so I played with the timing. Advice varies from 6 to 14 degrees BTDC! Right now it is at about 10 degrees BTDC.

Anyway, I think the timing is better and the pinging may have gone. However, I am not getting the expected speed (23 knots) and power. While the port side heat exchanger is cool, starboard is pretty hot (hard to touch). There has always been a port/std temperature difference but not as much as now. However, the temp sender (in the intake manifold) is working and the temp is about right - 180 degrees. Tomorrow I will remove a plug from the std. side exhaust manifold and see if water (or just steam) comes out.

When I took off my old intake manifold it had 3 holes in the underside. And the heads looked like crap. My old "J" (meaning marine) intake manifold had 6 bolts down each side (late 70s?). The "new" intake manifold has 8 bolts down each side (early 70s?). The "new" heads (which came with this 8-bolt manifold) are a little bit bigger (longer) than the old ones. So there have been issues bolting on the coil, alternator etc. However, I think I have solved those.

ight now I am thinking about port/std heat differences. And timing?

All advice greatly appreciated.




 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Bit More on the Windsor Marine

December 29 2012, 11:14 PM 

When I bought the "new" (i.e. 1970s) heads I was surprised to find they took a larger spark plug (13/16th) than my previous heads. I have since heard these large-plug heads are older (early 70s?) than my original ones (later 70s?).

I installed these 13/16 plugs without adjusting gaps. Pretty well went in as they came out of the box. Not smart, I know!

Apart from the fact I now have several spare boxes of smaller plugs, I am wondering if my power/pinging problem could be related to the plugs.

Here is a complaint. Once the exhaust manifiolds are one, there is SFA room to manipulate spark plugs!

Also, normal plug wire suppliers do not realise a bloke like me needs 90 degrees at the distributor and the plug ends. In the end, I had to muck around with "universal" (sort of el cheapo) wires. But, with this being a boat (where reliability is VERY important) there must be a better option.

However, now everything is painted Ford blue, it looks nice.

Now ... run you sucker!

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Bloody 'ell, still not right

December 30 2012, 3:01 PM 

Tried again on dead flat seas this morning. Ran alright for 10-15 mins then started pinking and the engine died. Returned to the dock and readjusted timing to 10 degrees BTDC. Tried again with the same results. About ten mins. at 2800 rpm - pinging then dead. Fortunately, it happily restarts so I can get back to the dock.

Being a 70s era Windsor I am focussed on timing. But now I need to consider other options. It feels so close. Hopefully it is some small thing. But if it is to do with my new heads (and the assembly thereof) I might be in deeper than I would prefer.

It being mid-winter in northern latitudes it is not much fun working outside on a boat engine tied alongside at a marina with cold winds coming up a river. But even less to have a major breakdown on the high seas.

Any thoughts or advice most welcome.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
71.239.148.199

Sounds like....

December 30 2012, 4:13 PM 

either an ignition system problem or fuel. How is the fuel tank vented and is the vent line clear? Does the gas cap go whoosh or have pressure/vacuum when you crack it open? If the carb has fuel, the vent is clear and the engine re-starts right away, I'd look to a faulty coil, poor engine ground (strap). Or, is this an electronic igntion (no points). Often, an electronic module will heat up and quit working unitl it cools a bit.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Will Try All Those Options

December 31 2012, 10:57 PM 

Once again, this is helpful. Today I put some Octane Boost fluid in the fuel tank. I also checked the Racor fuel filter (all clean). Backed-off the timing a bit more and, this time, was able to get to 3000 rpms before it 1. lost power 2. pinged 3. stopped. But, once again, a quick restart. I have bought fuel from my regular gas dock for many years and do not believe it is an octane problem.

Because I just replaced the heads and intake manifold I bought a new coil. So maybe I will go back to my old one. Also, I have been told my Mallory module (electronic ignition) will either go or stop. So it does not degrade. Just stops. Even so, I have doubts (and several spare modules on the boat). So I might change that too. Could it be the module only objects as the load comes on?

When I got up to 3000 rpms today I started to feel a bit optimistic. Also, I again felt this might be a timing problem. I need a 2nd person to steer the boat at speed (in a river) while I adjust the distributor. Doing it at the dock with a timing light (and low revs) is not the best. I do not feel like running a defective boat all the way to the sea - where I could adjust the distributor while the boat drives itself (fewer things to run into!)

Even so, I feel I am very close to a solution. But, with boats, close is not good enough.

Thanks for your response.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Better Answers

December 31 2012, 11:09 PM 

Did not answer your questions.

There are port and starboard fuel tanks with hoses vented to the outside. They should be alright. However, years ago, a tiny bit of styrofoam got into the fuel line (via a tank) and migrated up to the tiny hole where the fuel line goes into the Racor filter. Drove me nuts until I took it apart and blew into the fuel lines. I might try that again now!

There is no "whoosh" when I open the fuel caps.

With regard to the engine ground, it a monstrous thing and securely connected.

The Mallory module in the distributor? Yes, it is on the prime suspects list.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
71.239.148.199

Re: Will Try All Those Options

January 1 2013, 10:25 AM 

-Backed-off the timing a bit more and, this time, was able to get to 3000 rpms before it 1. lost power 2. pinged 3. stopped. But, once again, a quick restart. I have bought fuel from my regular gas dock for many years and do not believe it is an octane problem.

To be clear, you do not have a timing problem, at least that is not why the engine shuts off. I'd set the timing at about 32 degrees (total) or whatever initial (likely 6-10 degrees) advance you had before, lock down the ditzy and leave it. FYI, a bad coil under load or misfiring module can make the engine knock!

-Because I just replaced the heads and intake manifold I bought a new coil. So maybe I will go back to my old one.

Yes, a bad coil could be the cause (of why it shuts off) as it takes running time to heat up and then the coil temporarily quits throwing spark. This recommendation may be a pain in the butt (!) but...... I'd make one and only one change at a time (throw on the old coil) and give it a go. Be forewarned: this isn't the likely issue but....

-Also, I have been told my Mallory module (electronic ignition) will either go or stop. So it does not degrade. Just stops. Even so, I have doubts (and several spare modules on the boat). So I might change that too. Could it be the module only objects as the load comes on?

Yes, I'm very familar with Unilite and/or Mallory modules and yes, this is the likely or #1 cause of the engine quiting but re-starting in my book. The modules fail or only work intermittently for a host of reasons (bad ground(s), engine heat over time degrades the internal components, etc.) The modules are often good for a very long time (16+ years on mine in a 70' Mach 1) but when it misbehaves it can do EXACTLY what yours is doing: it just quits. After the coil exchange eliminates one variable and checks out, replace the module. Be sure to actually clean all engine-to-boat ground wires as well!

Here's the PDF for a Unilite. Note at the very top of the page that a ballast resistor must be used, etc. Note that a old ballast resistor itself can fail or partially fail and also cause the Unilite module to act up and stop sparking. Have your ballast or ballast resistor wiring checked visually and with a meter for continuity.

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/600/650/650-558.pdf

Finally, here is the very best (and very long!) set of technical instructions on the Web on all-about-Mallory-modules!

http://www.centuryperformance.com/forum/showthread.php/45-Testing-the-Mallory-Unilite-and-E-Spark-Ignition-Modules


 
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fletch
(no login)
24.18.115.166

mallory module

January 1 2013, 10:29 PM 

My module had an intermitent fail. It would fail under seemingly random conditions and just stop putting out any spark. No indication of what was causing it so I removed it from the car and replaced it with a new one. For giggles, I put it on the bench and checked the continuity cold and then kept raising the temp with a heat gun and once it warmed up to temp (don't remember how hot) it showed an open circuit indicating a fail. New one has never given me a problem. The old one would always work again after a few minutes.

 
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(no login)
50.92.213.231

Loss of power

January 4 2013, 8:48 PM 

Since it loses power first, then dies, I think it could be a fuel restriction. Either the inline fuel filter or the filter in the fuel tank is partially clogged. As fuel goes through, dirt covers the filter and restricts the flow. When the engine is off for a while, the dirt falls away and allows the engine to run normally for a while.

As a test for fuel starvation, have a helper with a spray bottle of gasoline stay near the engine on a test run. When the engine begins to lose power, have him spray gasoline into the carb to see if the engine picks up again.

 
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fletch
(no login)
24.18.115.166

sounds like a good call

January 5 2013, 2:03 PM 

the fuel starvation that is. An unnamed acquaintance used to screw with people by injecting a polymer into the flexible fuel line between the tank and fuel filter. The larger molecules would gather and eventually plug the filter and kill the engine. Once the flow was interrupted, the molecules would settle back down and the car would run again for a while. He was a crafty bastard and took pleasure in dealing out long term revenge. He even replaced a carb float piece with a bimetal strip so as to kill his irritating neighbor's car when it warmed up.

 
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(no login)
70.178.8.144

That would be a good place to start.

February 3 2013, 8:14 PM 

I had a VOLVO/PENTA that did the exact same thing. It would idle great. I could get the boat to plain out and it would bogg down and die. It would fire back up and it would idle. I change the inline fuel filter and it would run great for a couple trip out to the lake, then it would do it again. So I kept a spare filter on the boat all the time.

 
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Tom R
(no login)
71.201.205.197

Re: First Run on New (Rebuilt) Boat Engine

January 6 2013, 10:50 PM 

When you say port and starboard hear exchangers, do you mean exhaust manifolds?
There shouldn't be much if any differential in heat between them. Something seems clogged up - did you burn up a seawater pump impeller recently? Pieces of it can clog up cooling passages in the head or exhaust manifold. Sometimes scale can build up quite a bit in marine engines - that can clog up passages too.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Still Struggling With the Windsor

March 27 2013, 1:27 AM 

Sorry to be gone so long. But with summer now peeking over the horizon, am back on the boat.

Since last posting here I have

1. Replaced the Mallory Unilite module in the distributor
2. Checked that distributor springs (the advance mechanism) are ok. Checked rotor and cap
3. Installed new spark plug wires and a new coil.
4. Disconnected crucial parts of the fuel line and blew through them. No apparent blockages.
4. Changed back to my old Edelbrok Performer series marine carb
5. Fiddled with the timing

The engine now starts easily, the boat planes and gets up to about 15 knots. However, when I try to go beyond this, the pinging starts and, if I continue, the engine back-fires and stops. But, as before, there is no problem restarting.

There is a profound shortage of marine mechanics where I live (the entire country has a "skills shortage") and many "experts" give highly contradictory advice.

Most helpful has been what you guys have told me.

I feel I am close to a solution and tomorrow I will:

1. Remove the plugs (13/16th in contrast to smaller ones in the original heads)and ensure gaps are set to .03
2. Reinspect the Racor water/separator fuel filter and make sure nothing is plugged (I have already done this! However a 2nd time will not hurt)
3. Try 6 degrees before TDC (instead of 10 degrees)
4. With a tip of the hat to Bob, check (and clean) various engine ground wires
5. Maybe change the museum-piece ballast resistor
6. Put more octane booster in fuel tanks
7. Go to a gas station and buy some higher octane fuel (89 grade at the local fuel dock)
8. Put methyl hydrate in fuel tanks.

I have been buying fuel from the same dock since about 1986. And never had a problem. However, with these new heads and valves, I must have a higher compression. And, it being spring, although I doubt this is the problem, informed sources keep saying "rotten fuel".

I disconnected the fuel line from the carb and, by turning over the engine, captured gasoline in a glass jar. No sign of water or crud.

Resplendent in Ford Blue with chrome rocker covers, the engine looks spiffy. But, until this thing delivers 23 knots,it creates high stress and insomnia.

It is why "pleasure boating" is a major oxymoron.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

A struggle for sure!

March 27 2013, 8:56 AM 

It's gotta be fuel or spark, not too high of a c/r. Here's why.

Most Windsor combustion chamber head volumes, OEM or aftermarket, are about 65cc's per cylinder, give of take a few cc's. Starting out with an assumed low c/r in most marine V-8's and then adding say a 60cc head would barely increase say a 8.5 c/r to about 8.7. Unless someone really cut the heads by milling a lot (and I do mean a lot!) the highest one can usually raise a W's c/r, without a piston change is 1/2 point. But even a 1/2 point increase to say 9:1 should not cause pinging. And pinging alone should never cause any engine to cut out.

I'd do what you said above but first, drain one tank and re-fill with fresh, higher octane gas. This assumes you have dual tanks and the 'bad' tank's valve can be shut off. Give it a whirl. Then, if it still cuts out, while running dockside take a pair of insulated pliers and pop off a few plug wires at the cap, one at a time. That spark should be strong, bluish and make a sharp crackling noise. Now, have a pal speed up the engine and see if the spark goes from blue to yellow, the crackling sound gets weak and/or it stops sparking. A weak ignition system (coil, module, bad cap, bad wires, grounds, etc.) will cause an engine to miss, knock or quit under load. So will bad fuel or a low psi fuel line pressure.

One more idea: ignition switch and key. Is the key worn and does it fit loosely in the switch? Often, Ford cars from the 70's and 80's had weird engine cutouts caused by a heavy keychain and lots of bumpy roads over time. Had a '79 Fairmont that did this a few times until we figured it out!




 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Big Day Out!

March 31 2013, 4:25 PM 

Bob ... once again, many thanks. All good advice.

I now have higher octane (but still on 91) in both tanks - along with various "boosters" purchased at the big box store.

If I am to count the amount of advice received, bad gas is a prime suspect.

Once I get out of our river I will again adjust the timing (his time based on performance, not what the timing light says).

Spring is everywhere and there is now a STRONG need to get out on the boat.

Cheers and thank you.

P.S. I am carrying printed copies of your posts in the folder labelled "Plan B"!


 
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Roger Boshier
(no login)
72.25.192.4

Getting Close

April 1 2013, 2:10 AM 

Still stuck in town because, despite promise, the Windsor still wants to ping.

At 3000 rpm the boat is doing 16 knots. Sometimes it pings at that point; other times not. Soon after the pinging begins, the engine starts to die (at which point I quickly throttle back).

Just for the hell of it I pushed it over to 3,500 rpms and managed 22-23 knots. Oh boy, starting to feel like the way it ought to be. For a good (about 10 minute) run up the river at speed.

Also, not bad considering I have a full load of fuel - plus other heavy stuff - in this 26' aluminium workboat.

But I should have followed Bob's advice, drained one tank and refilled it with higher octane fuel. Instead, I heaved jerry cans of 91 octane down to the dock and put it in on top of the (not very much - maybe 1/5th of a tank) old stuff. What was I thinking?

Anyway, it was fine today and, after some pinging I deciding it was not worth the risk to continue over to my place 20 miles across a (able to be nasty) strait. It was better to return to the dock for a rethink.

Following Bob's instructions, I removed each wire at the distributor cap - looking for the right coloured spark. It all sounded good (with the requisite crackle) but the size of the spark was not all that impressive. However, there are no dead cylinders!! (just as well with these new valves and heads!!)

Although there were no cracks etc in the rotor I had a new one available so put it on. Is it my imagination? Or did that sucker deliver a more decisive spark? It seemed like it. And I managed 3,500 rpms with this new rotor installed.

In addition I hurled out the Unilite instructions and made sure the red, green and brown wires go where the doctor ordered.

Now I am thinking I may as well try the new distributor cap.

Like so many times on other parts of this road, I feel it is getting close.

And now the bloke in the dock next to me finds he has holes in his 503 Chevy intake manifold! Bloody 'ell!

I will try the cross-strait caper again tomorrow.

 
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(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Great!

April 1 2013, 11:39 AM 

Couple more thoughts.

-should have mentioned looking at the spark color at night. If this is hard to do, in daytime, throw a raincoat over your head and the plug wire in question. But, the sharp crackle alone pretty much says your o.k. here.

-carefully check that coil wire is firmly seated into both the coil end and dizty cap center. Often, the tall tower of the coil makes it hard to push the male terminal end all the way down into the female metal receiver. Any 'gap' here will weaken spark. Had this happen once on a race car and it was a real puzzler!

-be careful to ensure the new rotor (or the old one for that matter) has a long enough tip (rotor tip end to the insdie cap lugs). For some years (long ago I'll add) some Ford and Chevy rotors had a shorter 'emissions" tip than standard tips, meaning that the spark had to jump a pretty good gap from the tip to the lug, weakening spark to each plug. This is hard to measure except when one has an old cap handy. Cut about 1/4 of the diameter chunk out with a hacksaw or drill a big hole in the top, re-mount and rotate the engine by had or by the starter and check the gap between the tip and one lug. As noted below from another site, the gap should be .070 to .130 and no more. And not all Ford 'E' short-tippped rotors were marked like the GM ones were! Note especially the very last sentence: NOT for performance applciations.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Question 1: Rotor to terminal clearance. This post appears to be some sort of joke, posted as that, but I will address the subject, so for those whom wish to actually know, info is provided.

Yes, there is a gap between the rotor firing bar tip to each wire terminal, they do not strike each other as the rotor turns. This gap also has a spark jump, just like a spark plug electrode set has, and this spark jumping is also resistance in the whole ignition sceme of things.

In later GM vehicles with window style caps, there are two different gap specifications available, standard, and emissions.

Standard gaps are set to a spec of .100 and have a +/- tolerance of .030. These rotors have no marking on the end of the firing bar. These gaps have the least resistance of the two designs.

Emissions rotors have a shorter rotor firing bar length, to give a larger gap to bridge, to force the coil to make more spark energy, by having to overcome the larger terminal to tip gap. This was done to have the ignition coil work harder to make more volts from the coil, which ended up marginally increasing spark energy, but ended up just overloading the coil. Attempt was to make ignition output higher so it would help lighting off ever leaner mixtures, doesn't work well. Gaps for these rotors are usually set to .200/.250, and the rotor firing bar is identified with a letter "E". The large gap rotors are not the best for performance applications.

 
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Tom R
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50.158.14.235

Re: Getting Close

April 1 2013, 10:11 PM 

Was 3500 rpm wide open throttle? was it pinging?
These engines are rated at 4200-4400 rpms, so you might be overloading the engine with too much propeller for your setup; but I'm not convinced that's your issue. If it were running right, it might get into that range.
It sounded like a fuel starvation problem to me; but then it ran down the river at 3500 rpm for 10 min.Does the boat have steel fuel lines?
Vacuum leaks around carb base or intake manifold could lean it out and cause pinging under load.
What carburetor were you running before the Edelbrock? Is it possible they're jetted lean?

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Spark Not As Big As Expected and Other Mysteries

April 1 2013, 11:51 PM 

Bob and Tom R ... thank you for replies. As usual, very good points.

Tom .....

1. Propellor load? I have run 16 x 19R props for many years. This after over-loading a few engines with 16 x 21. I think 16 x 19 is about right. However, your point is a good one. If this goes on much longer I will get a haul-out and switch to one of my spare legs (sterndive). I washed the bottom not long ago. Even so, there is always the possibility of an unexpected load stuffing-up engine power. If it turns out to be stuffed bearings (or something) in the sterndive you will hear my curses from a great distance.

2. 23 knots @ 3500 rpm. Despite what the Windsor is supposed to do, 3500 rpms is pretty well my top speed. In a total emergency, there might be a bit more available. But I have never gone there! With a smaller prop. I might have more revs? When I got up to 23 knots it did not ping. But, after a mile or so at this speed I opted for prudence and throttled back. Does the boat have steel fuel lines? Only from the Carter fuel pump up to the Edelbrok carb. FRom the tanks to the Racor and on to the Carter pump it is that flexible red marine fuel hose.

3. Vacuum leaks around the carb or intake manifold? Err, yea! I took the carb off to check that! If, after I so carefully installed the intake manifold, it is now leaking, I will be off to the Psych. ward!!! How do I check for vacuum leaks around the intake manifold?

4. I have now replaced my brand new (bolt-on-and-go) 4-barrel Edelbrok with the "old" one (that has done good work for 5-7 years). Apart from adjusting the electric choke, I have not touched the jets. Like I said it is supposedly bolt-and-go!

Bob ...

1. Spark at Night? Yesterday I put in a new Mallory rotor. It is the right one for the 351 distributor (# 335). The tip looks to be at the right setting for the Mallory cap. Today I also changed the cap. Then I got the insulated pliers, removed each wire (from the cap) and observed the spark. It is a reassuruing crackle and there are no dead cylinders. But the spark is less than impressive. So much so I did the rest without the electronic pliers. Yes, I might need to do it at night. Or under a tarp?

When this performance began I bought a new coil (from the Ford dealer). On the side of the coil it says "use with an external ballast resistor." Because I have an external ballast resistor,I fitted this coil! But now I am wondering if this coil is delivering the needed juice. On the other hand, maybe I should ditch this thought because, yesterday, I got the boat up to 23 knots.

2. Coil wires etc? I took the coil off yesterday for a closer look. Everything seems to be where it should be. But, frankly, I sort of like my old (pre-rebuild) coil and might bring it back. Case of the dog you know!

3. Rotor tips. Because I am using the entire Mallory package - distributor, rotor, cap, Unilite module etc, I install what they give me! I think the sizes are ok.

Today I took off down the river and had no problems for about 15 mins. While doing 3000 rpms pinging started and the motor died. Fortunately, there is no problem re-starting so I abandoned plans to go further and quietly motored back to my dock where I:

a. Again removed and blew through fuel lines (no obstructions). I also captured samples of fuel from various places. No sign of water or other crap!
b. Took the Racor filter apart and ensured there were no obstructions (all ok).
c. Took off and checked the Carter fuel pump filter (all ok).
d. Took each plug wire off the cap and checked for a spark. All 8 cylinders have a spark but it ain't impressive.
e. Sat at the dock filled with envy as boats returned from a settled Easter weekend!
f. Closed the shut-off to the starboard fuel tank so I empty he port one more quickly. This way I can do what Bob said - run on higher octane (and new) gas from the "good" tank.
g. Took-off and remounted the alternator. This is "new" because the original one would not fit in its space next to the new heads. There has been whining from the belt driving the alternator. At speed, the whining stops. But the pulley gets VERY hot. This alternator is supposed have a ground wire but there is no space to get one in between the starboard engine head and the back side of the alternator housing. When the alternator belt is slack, the gauge on the dashboard suggests it is not charging. This is when the pulley gets very hot. Tighten the belt, the alternator dumps 13v into batteries and the pulley does not overheat. Anyway, by using washers as packers, I got the pulley better aligned with the main engine pulley. I would have thought the alternator would be grounded through the monster bolt holding it in place. But the manufacturer wants a ground wire attached to the place provided on the back side of the housing. Bob, you talk a lot about ground wires and have my attention!

With the engine running, the distributor is getting very hot and I am wondering if this pinging (and shut down) is because of heat. These worries go back to my very early posts here when I discovered the 351 heads and engine block has water passages (for cooling) at the front and back ends of the engine. Yet, the FelPro marine head gasket only has water pasage cuts-out (in the shape of a J) at the back end (the stern) of the engine. At the time, people said this was correct and Bob helped me put on the gaskets with the end marked FRONT at the ... err, um ... well ... the front! With my new Sherwood raw water pump now on the engine, the heat exchanger and exhaust manifolds are cool. The temperature gauge on the dash says (about 175). So it all looks alright. Even so, there are hot spots here and there (on the intake manifold - particularly near the distributor - and the heat exchanger). As someone here said, if it is heat then heat = shutdown. Cooling = restart. Which, I regret to say, fits the data awfully well.

My comrades at the marina wonder why I am not bouncing with joy but there every day. Particularly when the weather is fine. I am thinking the same thing!






 
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Tom R
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50.158.14.235

Re: Spark Not As Big As Expected and Other Mysteries

April 2 2013, 12:39 AM 

I'm not sure what you mean by j shaped ports - If you have the older model heads, they had the L shaped ports to accommodate the 4 extra intake manifold bolts; but not on head gaskets. The head gaskets definitely have a front and back, and the cooling ports are in the back. You could probably find a coolant flow diagram to illustrate this.
The reason I was asking about fuel lines is I've had some go bad on various machines over the years that send bits and pieces to the filter or decide to flap down and block flow. Unlikely I'll agree, but it wouldn't be the strangest thing.
Volvo and other manufacturers recommends you prop that 351 so that it can reach 42-4400 rpms at wot - that way you don't overload your engine at cruise speeds and less chance of cavitation for your prop.
Is the old one a Holley 4160? They're simple to rebuild - around $35 for a Holley renew kit.
I've heard of some using propane to search for vacuum leaks as it's nicer to paint than carb cleaner.
Could be a combination of several things, increased compression ratio is a factor as well. ~70cc to ~60cc heads can boost it close to a point.
How's the pcv valve and rubber grommet? good seal?

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

More mystery!

April 2 2013, 11:07 AM 

-Vacuum leaks. As mentioned, use an unlight propane torch and play the gas over the running engine at all sources (carb gasket, vacuum lines, intake manifold near each port). It'll speed up if you find a leak.

1. Spark at Night? Yesterday I put in a new Mallory rotor. It is the right one for the 351 distributor (# 335). The tip looks to be at the right setting for the Mallory cap. Today I also changed the cap. Then I got the insulated pliers, removed each wire (from the cap) and observed the spark. It is a reassuruing crackle and there are no dead cylinders. But the spark is less than impressive. So much so I did the rest without the electronic pliers. Yes, I might need to do it at night. Or under a tarp?

-Sure, at night or a tarp. But, as mentioned, your speed under load and that sharp crackling seems to indicate you're o.k. here.

When this performance began I bought a new coil (from the Ford dealer). On the side of the coil it says "use with an external ballast resistor." Because I have an external ballast resistor,I fitted this coil! But now I am wondering if this coil is delivering the needed juice. On the other hand, maybe I should ditch this thought because, yesterday, I got the boat up to 23 knots.

-as above, that's great news. Test the old coil at night/tarped for a base line and see if you note any difference. Keep in mind at all times you want to make only one change at a time to isolate the issue.

2. Coil wires etc? I took the coil off yesterday for a closer look. Everything seems to be where it should be. But, frankly, I sort of like my old (pre-rebuild) coil and might bring it back. Case of the dog you know!

-I'd do it as mentioned above since it's easy and $ painless.

3. Rotor tips. Because I am using the entire Mallory package - distributor, rotor, cap, Unilite module etc, I install what they give me! I think the sizes are ok.

-yes, using the Mallory parts should ensure its all a-o.k.

Today I took off down the river and had no problems for about 15 mins. While doing 3000 rpms pinging started and the motor died. Fortunately, there is no problem re-starting so I abandoned plans to go further and quietly motored back to my dock where I:

a. Again removed and blew through fuel lines (no obstructions). I also captured samples of fuel from various places. No sign of water or other crap!
b. Took the Racor filter apart and ensured there were no obstructions (all ok).
c. Took off and checked the Carter fuel pump filter (all ok).
d. Took each plug wire off the cap and checked for a spark. All 8 cylinders have a spark but it ain't impressive.
e. Sat at the dock filled with envy as boats returned from a settled Easter weekend!
f. Closed the shut-off to the starboard fuel tank so I empty he port one more quickly. This way I can do what Bob said - run on higher octane (and new) gas from the "good" tank.

-Something still sounds wrong here. I'll await your next paragraphs.


g. Took-off and remounted the alternator. This is "new" because the original one would not fit in its space next to the new heads. There has been whining from the belt driving the alternator. At speed, the whining stops. But the pulley gets VERY hot. This alternator is supposed have a ground wire but there is no space to get one in between the starboard engine head and the back side of the alternator housing. When the alternator belt is slack, the gauge on the dashboard suggests it is not charging. This is when the pulley gets very hot. Tighten the belt, the alternator dumps 13v into batteries and the pulley does not overheat. Anyway, by using washers as packers, I got the pulley better aligned with the main engine pulley. I would have thought the alternator would be grounded through the monster bolt holding it in place. But the manufacturer wants a ground wire attached to the place provided on the back side of the housing. Bob, you talk a lot about ground wires and have my attention!

-the alternator, unless the heat exchanger is very close by, should not get that hot....or no hotter than say the valve covers or carb. Cant you add the ground wire to the backside of the unmounted alternator, then mount it and ground the other end? Btw, having multiple grounds is no problem at all.

With the engine running, the distributor is getting very hot and I am wondering if this pinging (and shut down) is because of heat. These worries go back to my very early posts here when I discovered the 351 heads and engine block has water passages (for cooling) at the front and back ends of the engine. Yet, the FelPro marine head gasket only has water pasage cuts-out (in the shape of a J) at the back end (the stern) of the engine. At the time, people said this was correct and Bob helped me put on the gaskets with the end marked FRONT at the ... err, um ... well ... the front! With my new Sherwood raw water pump now on the engine, the heat exchanger and exhaust manifolds are cool. The temperature gauge on the dash says (about 175). So it all looks alright. Even so, there are hot spots here and there (on the intake manifold - particularly near the distributor - and the heat exchanger). As someone here said, if it is heat then heat = shutdown. Cooling = restart. Which, I regret to say, fits the data awfully well.

-This is why I said above something still sounds wrong. We established your head gaskets are on correctly. Is the ditzy housing considerably hotter than say the valve covers and carb body? Can you pop the thermostat housing off and look inside for potential blockage? Take a stiff wire and search around for scale or other crap while you're at it.

Oddly, once any spark module heats up enough to cause ignition cut-out, they ALMOST ALWAYS (!) require quite a bit of time to cool down before re-starting. That's what is odd here as you get 'instant' restarts. It's almost like temporary fuel starvation.

A couple of things: vapor lock from too much heat to the fuel lines from the pump to the carb. Next time when it quits, grab hold of the line just before the carb....bet it is also very hot.

Also, although we covered this ground before, I'd experiment with tank venting. Pop the cap on one tank, cover & seal the entire opening with silver duct tape or a comaprable heavy tape. Then, poke one small hole, say 1/8", through the tape. Run the boat only on that tank and see if this makes any difference. Btw, be careful here and skip this step if have any or even slight concerns over fumes in the engine compartment. Running without the engine cover, if this is feasible, may be best.

My comrades at the marina wonder why I am not bouncing with joy but there every day. Particularly when the weather is fine

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Consistent Patterns

April 2 2013, 10:41 PM 

I did not expect much had changed overnight but, just to satisfy myself, took another run down the river today.

Whooped along at 3000 rpms. 17 knots with favourable current. But, just like yesterday and all the days before, pinging and loss of power while abeam a local landmark. Roughly 10-15 mins running downstream from my dock. And, once again, a quick restart and return to the dock at lower revs.

I have a morning meeting with a well-informed bloke. But, as a result of a preliminary chat with him, am now paying special attention to casting numbers on heads and the intake manifold. I was earlier told all this Windsor stuff was interchangeable. But is it so?

The original intake manifold had 6 bolts down each side and oblong shaped water passages. Casting number 7E12 D7JE 9425 BA. I am told the 7 suggests this is a 1977 manifold; the "J" means marine and the "E" is the application. I ditched this manifold because it was crap. And had three holes in the underside.

Nobody around here had any "six-bolt down one side" Ford marine intake manifolds like my faulty one.

Then I met this bloke who had an "8 bolts down one side" (far more common bujt maybe even older than the 197 one. It was a Ford 351 intake manifold with two good-looking heads to go with it. I immediately noticed it had 8, not 6, bolts. And the fact water passages were L-shaped (disregard my comment about J). But I was assured all this Windsor stuff is/was interchangeable. Alright, let's do it.

Bob, very early on, you alluded to the fact I might have more compression than before. As as I walked out of the rebuild shop (with the now rebuilt heads) the nice bloke who had done the work said "I hope you do not have problems with increased compression").

I might find out about this tomorrow. But, because you (Bob) pointed to this earlier on and because the pinging occurs at the same time and place on every trial, I have to wonder if I have been barking up the wrong tree (about timing, fuel etc etc). Have I inadvertently "reengineered" the engine? And messed it up?

Knowledge is power. And I am now paying for my ignorance.

However I greatly appreciate your patience and advice. So much so, I am now printing your posts and then going to the boat and doing what I can.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

It could be....

April 2 2013, 11:26 PM 

that the head cc volume is the issue. Ford made a ton of different heads since the Windsor came into use and perhaps the new heads are of a considerably smaller chamber volume. Short of pulling the intake to see the casting # on the underside of the intake ports, does your bill of sale or the shop have a record of same?

This isn't even a complete list of W heads but it's pretty good:

http://www.mustangtek.com/heads/Heads.html

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Casting Numbers and Photos

April 3 2013, 2:11 AM 

Bob ... the bill of sale (from the rebuild shop) itemises what was done. But without an identifying marks for the heads. However, I was billed ($90) for "refacing V8 cylinder head." The same shop supplied me with Felpro gaskets 1 x MS90116, 2 x 8548PT2, 1 xVS132646

There was no bill of sale etc from the bloke who sold me the intake manifold and heads.

I took some photos of the block after the heads + intake manifold came off. Just looked at them.
351 WCP1 engraved on the block - by the pushrod lifters. And 10 kidney (and triangular) shaped water passages for cooling.

Does it help?

How do I post photos here?


 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

The head casting number.....

April 3 2013, 9:17 AM 

is located under the installed head, valley side, and can only be viewed after pulling the intake and using a mirror to see the numbers. The WCP-1 isn't useful as it only indicated the casting came from Windsor Casting Plant number 1. Perhaps your pictures show the casting numbers.

[linked image]

Pictures here on our ancient Network 54 site need to be uploaded via Photobucket first.....see link below next to Image Services.

http://tutorials.photobucket.com/

p.s. I don't need them btw as the casting numbers would be more helpful.

 
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(Login kbott)
208.126.14.147

Re: The head casting number.....

April 3 2013, 11:27 AM 

I am by no means a boat guy, but I wonder if you have checked the dist advance? If you have in fact increased the comp. then the advance may be over advanced for the compression there by causing cyl heating and pinging when the heat gets higher after a time of running, (in cyl only, wouldn`t show on the gauge) Just another idea to check. also sounds to me also like it is pulling too hard, aka wrong prop. KB

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Agree....

April 3 2013, 1:58 PM 

that some combo of 91 octane and lower timing should eliminate pinging/knocking. If not, something else is amiss. Here is a pretty good link on causes and remedies:

http://www.peugeotlogic.com/info/info1.htm

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Useful Advice

April 3 2013, 11:17 PM 

Thanks for your response. I will look into it.

According to an informed source, the original 6-bolt intake manifold (7E12 D7JE 9425 BA) is from 1977 and suggests 69 cc. The compression ratio would have been about 8.5 cs.

The replacement 8-bolt intake manifold (3D25 D1JE 9425 BA) is from 1971 and would be 60 (or 60.4) cc. Hence, a higher compression ratio of 9.5

Have I got this right? This is what Bob was talking about - right?

Anyway, today's source (the first local person who has the ability to explain this) made me VERY happy by suggesting I can use this "new" intake manifold.

But, like Bob, he REALLY wanted the numbers of the heads. Which, if it stays fine, I will get tomorrow.

But to your point. I had the Mallory distributor in a box when the new heads and intake manifold went on. The springs were good when I removed the distributor. And still are!

Even so, your point is a good one and I will look into it. Would be a big relief if that was it.

Apart from being broken down on the river, today was disturbing for other reasons. There are two local men who, unlike the Facebok generation, know about these things. But both have cancer. And the local tech. institute no longer has a course on engine rebuilding and, in what is left of marine mechanics courses, it is all "digital this" and "digital that."

Points and rotor? What's that?

Thank you.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Combo of two messages.

April 4 2013, 9:39 AM 

According to an informed source, the original 6-bolt intake manifold (7E12 D7JE 9425 BA) is from 1977 and suggests 69 cc. The compression ratio would have been about 8.5 cs. The replacement 8-bolt intake manifold (3D25 D1JE 9425 BA) is from 1971 and would be 60 (or 60.4) cc. Hence, a higher compression ratio of 9.5. Have I got this right? This is what Bob was talking about - right?

-Yes! It would seem you've maybe hit upon the most extreme range of head cc's found in all but the earliest 221CID Windors (54cc's IIRC). If true, your original 8.5 c/r is now about 9.5...or is it? Still, some combo of lowered timing and high octane should prevent pinging and engine cutout.

Today I found someone who knows what he is talking about. Showed him photos of the block (without heads or intake manifold). He said it is a "universal" block which should take the heads that go with my replacement 8-bolt intake manifold (3D25 D1JE-9425). However, like you (Bob) he needs those head numbers.

-Having the head numbers (and in fact the old head numbers too although this is less important) would help to isolate one issue: Has the c/r gone up a full point, nothing at all or something less than 1 point?

I bought an outboard tank and hooked the hose to my Racor filter. All I detached and blew through the steel pipe connecting the Carter fuel pump to the carb. Had the OB tank filled with clean new 94 octane gas.

-Good. It would seem until the wire fell off all was fine. But, your keen reporting (engine dies always about the same place after leaving the dock) now has me thinking it's all about heat. More below.

What happened?

It lost power opposite the usual landmark down the river!!!! As I recall, I said something like "gee whiz, golly gosh, what a nuisance."Why did I pay $80 for this OB tank?"

This time it would NOT restart and I had to cadge a tow up the river with a tug (a big one!).(later I found a wire knocked off the electric choke. So, getting stuck on the river may have stemmed from that. Anyway, after the tug let me off at a handy dock, I waited a while, managed to retart and got back to my dock - where I found the loose choke wire).

The engine is far too hot. The distributor is hot to touch and so is much of the intake manifold and even lower down the block.

My raw water pump is fine and the exhaust manifolds & risers are cool. But the rest is a bloody mess. I assume I have the thermostat facing the right way because the gauge keeps saying the engine is running at 175-180. But it sure as hell feels hotter than that. Touch the distributor and it burns the finger.

I wonder if I should pull off (and replace) the internal water pump - the one that pushes the coolant around. Jeez, I should have done this when it was easier. What do you guys think? Should I do it?

-In a word yes! Something IS really wrong when the ditzy and related parts are that hot. Perhaps it's junk stuck in the internal ports or the pump's impeller wheel wheel has been eaten up. You mentioned a pals' Chevy intake that had 3 holes in it. Was this due to salt water corrosion? I assume your engine's cooling is fresh water (?) while only the exhausts are salt water cooled. Excessive heat, whatever the cause, WILL cause vapor lock and/or knocking...and your running down a channel and having the engine reach full heat in the same spot each time and then dying....seems to now indicate it's all (or mostly) heat-related. I'd also yank the thermostat and drill a 1/8' hole (about 3.2mm) in the perimeter area. This will ensure free water flow and eliminate the possibilty of a trapped air bubble in the engine's top end.

[linked image]

-I'll add that although your heads are on right (gasket tabs lower left/right front) it is remotely possible (unlucky as you may be!) that the wrong intake gasket with the heads now in use could be blocking 100% flow. Long story short: Ford made a host of different water jacket port designs for the Windsor over time, for the life of me I could never find out why. Some are J-shaped, kidney- shaped, L-shaped, etc. Still, most aftermarket and Ford OEM gaskets pretty much span most (but not 100%) of these openings well enough to NOT impede water flow. And, almost always if the wrong gaskets are used, the engine will leak coolant internally or externally and this is not your case. Perhaps your pictures show how well or poorly the ports and gaskets macth up.

I am starting to think the worst and believe there is something fundamental that ain't right. If I have to pull the intake manifold and heads I will do it. Even though I paid $1,400 to have the heads done!

-I'd exhaust all other possibilites before even yanking the intake to check the casting numbers. If your cooling system is the true culprit, the fix here will be be much cheaper and the real solution. As to the possibilty of high c/r heads, as mentioned some combo of reduced timing and/or higher octane gas should work. If you can get the engine to stop pinging/dying but later decide high octane is too pricey, well at least you'll have time to consider what to do.

Bloody 'ell ... this is exhausting!

-I'm sure it is!

 
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72.25.192.4

Next Steps

April 4 2013, 12:24 PM 

Yesterday I forgot to mention this. While running on the 94 octane (from the OB tank) the engine did not ping. Instead, as we approached the local landmark, it started missing a little bit. And then a lot. So I shut it down before doing major damage. I turned off the ignition because I wanted to stick my hand into the alternator pulley (not hot) and the distributor (very hot).

Bob, I have just read (and printed) your latest message. It is not raining (although the forecast says it is coming) and I am very tempted to rip off the intake manifold and get some numbers and photos. However, I agree. Replacing the water pump would be easier. I am a bit resistant because, all I have changed here are the heads and intake manifold (exhaust manifolds are also new). If, after all these years, the fresh water circulating pump has chosen this moment to die, it is an unfortunate coincidence. On the other hand I know people in the Church of Ford who say "that shalt change thy freshwater pump every time you have the engine in pieces." Moreover, a replacement water fresh pump does not cost a fortune. I would never have thought of drilling a hole in the thermostat. But, yes, all noted.

The psychology of this thing has become as wearing as the frustration and physical work. My friends say "stop being a cheap bastard and hire someone." But, as noted earlier, whereas there were once 10 or so marine mechanics on my part of the river, there is now only one - and he is the bloke that over-tightened push rods to a point where they were bent. As I noted yesterday, I have found a couple of other blokes quite a long way from my dock. Good people but both strugling with health issues.

Besides, when this boat is running I am often in isolated locations a long way from the dock. Knowledge is power and I need to understand what is happening in the engine room. Over the years, I have ignored new noises in cars. But, with boats, new noises mean big trouble and must be dealt with now!

I think I will remove the fresh water pump and take it (and its part number) to shop where there might be a new one.


 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

More Drama on the River

April 3 2013, 8:45 PM 

I am getting close to pulling the intake manifold to get those head numbers !!!.

Today I found someone who knows what he is talking about. Showed him photos of the block (without heads or intake manifold). He said it is a "universal" block which should take the heads that go with my replacement 8-bolt intake manifold (3D25 D1JE-9425). However, like you (Bob) he needs those head numbers.

Why did I not photograph or note them at a better time than now? [no, don't answer that question]

I bought an outboard tank and hooked the hose to my Racor filter. All I detached and blew through the steel pipe connecting the Carter fuel pump to the carb. Had the OB tank filled with clean new 94 octane gas.

What happened?

It lost power opposite the usual landmark down the river!!!! As I recall, I said something like "gee whiz, golly gosh, what a nuisance."Why did I pay $80 for this OB tank?"

This time it would NOT restart and I had to cadge a tow up the river with a tug (a big one!).(later I found a wire knocked off the electric choke. So, getting stuck on the river may have stemmed from that. Anyway, after the tug let me off at a handy dock, I waited a while, managed to retart and got back to my dock - where I found the loose choke wire).

The engine is far too hot. The distributor is hot to touch and so is much of the intake manifold and even lower down the block.

My raw water pump is fine and the exhaust manifolds & risers are cool. But the rest is a bloody mess. I assume I have the thermostat facing the right way because the gauge keeps saying the engine is running at 175-180. But it sure as hell feels hotter than that. Touch the distributor and it burns the finger.

I wonder if I should pull off (and replace) the internal water pump - the one that pushes the coolant around. Jeez, I should have done this when it was easier. What do you guys think? Should I do it?

I am starting to think the worst and believe there is something fundamental that ain't right. If I have to pull the intake manifold and heads I will do it. Even though I paid $1,400 to have the heads done!

Bloody 'ell ... this is exhausting!


 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Freshwater Pump OK - Now What?

April 4 2013, 5:54 PM 

Early day because of rain.

This time I photographed everything before dumping the coolant and removing the freshwater pump.

Removed the stainless backing plate of the pump and ... the impellor looks brand new!

Shaft turns nicely and the impellor is good. No broken blades.

Even so, because "thy shalt have spares for everything" I bought and will install another pump. The one removed today will be cleaned-up, painted and put in the box with other spares.

So, what now?

Although it is raining I think I will pull the intake manifold tomorrow and get the numbers from the underside of the heads.

Although I VERY CAREFULLY put all this together, I installed gaskets supplied by the head rebuilders.

You will recall that, at the time, I did not like the way the Fel-Pro head gasket closed off water passages at the front of the block and heads. However, I was told (and continue to be told) this is correct.

By removing the intake manifold I get another good look at the push-rods and a chance to photograph gaskets separating the intake manifold gaskets from the heads. I am sure I did this properly. But, at this stage, am open to any surprises! For example, when this joker bent two push-rods by screwing them down too tight, did he damage some lifters. If so, how could I tell that?

Also, the bloke that just sold me the new small-block Ford freshwater pump insists "all engines run hot." Quite so! But how hot is hot? And why is the temperature sender telling the dashboard gauge it is 175-180 when a quick feel around the motor compartment reveals very hot spots (such as the distributor).

Bob, I am hoping that, combining the head numbers (obtained with the mirror) with the intake manifold numbers will clarify whether I have three matched pieces. Or an unholy smorgasbord that will never work.

P.S. Considering the hours done, the freshwater pump is in surprisingly good shape.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

That's actually....

April 4 2013, 6:57 PM 

not a good sign that the current pump looks very good. On the lifter, once the intake is off you could remove the rockers one by one and pull out the lifters. See if the bottom is flat/convex and not concave and worn. Don't mix up the parts and replace each from where they came.

On the intake gaskets, what you could do is see if the water ports line up well as well as the gaskets. Your only concern here is all three do allow water flow w/o any restriction.

You could also drag the gaskets and intake back to the engine shop and, with a camera or cell phone close-up pic of the cylinder head's water ports, show them your concern.

Like I said before, Ford in their infinite wisdom (!) did make a lot of variances in Windsor water port shapes over the years and it is possible, remote as it may be, that you've inadvertently blocked intake water flow.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Convex, concave......pics are better!

April 4 2013, 9:31 PM 

[linked image]

Left side is bad, right side is good!

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Thank You Again

April 5 2013, 1:15 AM 

Thanks for all this.

I assume (from what you say) I can just grab a lifter and pull it out.

I think they will be ok but, after this bloke over-tightened two push rods, who knows?

It is pouring rain and tomorrow will need some kind of tarp arrangement. But I am anxious to find something before the weekend.

Thanks again.

 
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Tom R
(no login)
50.158.14.235

Re: Thank You Again

April 5 2013, 6:54 AM 

How did he over tighten two push rods? Were the heads milled that much? Usually, assuming you have the right size pushrods, you just tighten them down and check the lash by how much the bolt turns from the time of contact. If two were that wrong, I'd think they were all wrong.
If your tearing it down again, make sure the steam holes on the early heads and later block line up - probably fine, but I remember reading somewhere that ford changed these a bit over the years.
If the heads were milled that much, you might have some issues with your intake manifold alignment.
Also, pull a freeze plug on the side of the block and see if you have a lot of scale build up. When I pulled mine apart 7 or eight years ago I found scale was built half way up the freeze plug. They're cheap to replace, just use the brass type.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Yikes, how could I forget!

April 5 2013, 9:44 AM 

Kudos to Tom R. He may have hit the nail on the head and I'm actually embarassed to have forgotten this issue. No excuses but this is an old issue that rarely comes up these days.

See the link below where Wayne in 2003 talks about his Volvo Windsor boat engine issues....overheating until he yanked the heads and drilled the 8 holes. Wayne btw is the former site owner (Hi Wayne if you're reading!).

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417/thread/1072116357/dooe+351w+heads+on+a+302

And more here too:

http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/011984.html

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417/thread/1072116357/dooe+351w+heads+on+a+302

With specific combos of heads and blocks, steam holes (a.k.a. coolant circulation hoes) need to be added to the HEAD using the gasket as a template.

[linked image]

Note the small holes directly over each cylinder at the 12 o'clock position. It's these holes that should match the head's holes or curved channel. Some Ford heads had a curving channel cast or machined into the deck's gasket surface.

[linked image]

The thing with steam holes on SBF's... is that they moved them. 289's had steam holes that were at 12 o'clock to the cylinder. Some 302's were at 11 o'clock, some were at 1 o'clock.

Most gaskets have holes punched at all three spots.

You just need to look at the block to see where it's drilled, then drill a matching hole in the heads...or vice-versa although drilling the heads is much easier. block. Use the head gasket as a template. Some aftermarket heads have a half moon groove (see 289 head pic) that sweeps across all locations to make for an 'idiot proof' install. No drilling needed if your heads have this curve AND it matches up to the block's 8 holes.

If your heads a.) do not have this curving channel that lines up with the block's 8 holes or b.) do not have matching 1/8" head holes to those same block holes, then methinks we've solved your problem of excessive heat.


 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

No Engine But Plenty of Bits!

April 5 2013, 1:27 PM 

When I first got into this (after Labour weekend, 2012) I had an ominous feeling changing stuff would create complications.

And I frequently recalled the answer to an oft-asked question "Why do you have this old Ford stuff in your boat?"

The answer is/was "better the dog you know ...... etc"

Anyway, I have a photogragh of my block without heads and it looks like the one in Bob's photo. If rain holds off, I will remove the intake manifold today and, the way things are going, I have a feeling the heads will be next. Plugged (or no) steam vents look like a plausible hypothesis.

In the meantime friends are saying "why didn't you buy a long block?"

Why indeed!!!!

Once again, thanks for all these new leads.

P.S. I have to learn how to use this photobucket thingo. Because I am now taking plenty of photos.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Digging Deeper But No Resolution

April 5 2013, 8:41 PM 

Had to dodge rain showers but got the intake manifold off.

Using the mirror as Bob said, these numbers are visible on the underside of the heads.
Port side = EDOOE; 351 and 27. And, on the starboard head = 23; 351; DOOE

Bob ... are these heads compatible with Intake manifold 3D25D1JE 9425 BA

I have several photos of the heads and will try and use the photobucket thingo.

But, in the meantime, here is the important bit.

Both heads have pretty good-sized L-shaped water passages at both ends. The intake manifold x head gasket has openings matching these water passages. Thus, water passage openings at both ends of both gaskets.

However, the intake manifold only has open water passages at the front (the thermostat end of the intake manifold).

As soon as I got the intake manifold off, I photographed everything, packed and quickly drove to the shop that rebuilt the heads. These guys are pretty helpful. We discussed the steam-hole question and he agrees with you. I must check it. But we mostly talked head gaskets.

Instead of decent openings for 3 water passages at 1 p.m. (and others at 4 p.m.)there are only smallish holes (not much bigger than those steam vents) at 11 a.m., 12.00 and 1 p.m. The roughly 1/8th inch diameter hole at 1 p.m. on the gasket should sit over a much larger triangular-shaped water passages at 1 p.m. in the block (on Cylinders 1, 2, 3 - to starboard and 5, 6 and 7 to port). Gasket holes for 4 p.m. passages are better but still not very big.(I have to figure out how to post pictures of this)

It is a Fel-Pro Ford Head gasket number 8548PT2.

I also got (what might be a needed) lecture about how one head gasket has the blue side up and the other the grey side up (I have the gasket set on my desk).

I was also told to get a propane torch and apply heat to coolant plugs (down the side of the block) that have probably not come out since about the 1970s.

Before pulling the intake manifold I dropped the coolant in the bilge. Even though all quite new, it looked like coffee. Just a faint hint of green. But mostly brown. (No, it was not the infamous cream!). While I have this apart I should flush the freshwater side of the engine.

It is clear the heads MUST come off (again). Will do it tommorow. Along with crap coolant, I might end up eating crow. Even so, I am sure I did it right the first time. But I am so deep into this now, there is no point stopping. And those little steam holes might be plugged.

Today, I did not have time to pull rocker arms, lift push rods and examine lifters. For now, the focus is water circulation. But, when I lift the push rods, can I just fish out the lifters with pliers or something? They have little wire clips in them.

When this is resolved you will be relieved. Me too!


 
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72.25.192.4

Photos

April 5 2013, 9:28 PM 

I managed to upload my photos to an "album" on www.photobucket.com

When in this forum, I click on www.photobucket.com (at the bottom of the message window). My album appears.

But how do I upload (or post) those pictures into this window?

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Can't....

April 6 2013, 8:58 AM 

load pics directly into your text.

But, when opening up this site, go to the top of the page and find the 'Photo" page. Open the photo page and then click on the Photobucket link at the bottom of that page. That should open up with a message to enter your Photobucket name and password. The rest they explain.

 
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(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

More.....

April 6 2013, 9:45 AM 

Port side = EDOOE; 351 and 27. And, on the starboard head = 23; 351; DOOE. Bob ... are these heads compatible with Intake manifold 3D25D1JE 9425 BA

-Yes. Per Kelly's Page 3, the heads are 74-77 351W heads, a popular choice by many. It's the DOOE and not the suffix (23) that counts here. Standard cc volume is 60.4, about average for all but the earliest 221-289 CID engines. Even with milling, the ccs probably decreased to only 55-56 ccs, therefore a max increase in c/r of about ½ a point, if even that.

http://www.raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/engine3.html

I have several photos of the heads and will try and use the photobucket thingo.

-See separate reply. Posting pics to our ancient Network 54 site has tripped up many a poster. You've been warned....LOL!

However, the intake manifold only has open water passages at the front (the thermostat end of the intake manifold).

-This is normal and as Ford designed it. The Windsor, like most Ford engine designs (and other makes as well) does not circulate coolant at the rear between cylinder heads.

Instead of decent openings for 3 water passages at 1 p.m. (and others at 4 p.m.)there are only smallish holes (not much bigger than those steam vents) at 11 a.m., 12.00 and 1 p.m. The roughly 1/8th inch diameter hole at 1 p.m. on the gasket should sit over a much larger triangular-shaped water passages at 1 p.m. in the

-If I'm reading your text this correctly, note that the three rather large triangular passages BETWEEN the cylinders have nothing to do with the steam holes at the TOP of each cylinder. The 4 block steam holes (if you have them) should be small, about 1/8 as noted, match the similar sized holes in your head gaskets and match up to 4 holes or curved/slot opening in each head.

It is a Fel-Pro Ford Head gasket number 8548PT2. I also got (what might be a needed) lecture about how one head gasket has the blue side up and the other the grey side up (I have the gasket set on my desk).

-All that counts is that each gasket has the tab showing (see pic of assembled engine in a previous post above) at the lower edge of the front of the engine on each side and the word "Front" is in fact at the front on each side.

You've hit upon a pet peeve of mine here. This color issue, for ease of manufacturing, has tripped up many a Ford fan who instead of ensuring that the word "Front" is truly in front and that little tab shows up at the front lower edges, instead flip the gaskets only due to color! Overheating is the 100% sure result btw. Btw, I often mention to folks what would you do if you were color blind? They'd follow the instruction sheet that says put the stamped "Front" to the front on each side! Hallelujah.

-the brown water is interesting as this could have contributed to hot engine running. Whats odd though, as you have mentioned more than once before, is that the water temp gauge was steady and normal at all times. Odd indeed and puzzling. The steam holes and other passages might be plugged. Good to yank out the block freeze plugs (the openings and plugs are called by many different names btw) and use a stiff wire (coat hanger?) to dig around for hard crap.

But, when I lift the push rods, can I just fish out the lifters with pliers or something? They have little wire clips in them.

-yes, you can use pliers, needle nose pliers or channel locks to remove the lifters. They should slide out unless they have been gummed up come out easily. DO NOT try and hook the wire clip retainers! Replace each exactly where it came from.

When this is resolved you will be relieved. Me too!

-Amen brother!





 
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72.25.192.4

Could be a disappointing day

April 6 2013, 1:39 PM 

Thanks for your latest.

Am heading down to the boat to take off exhaust manifolds and then the heads. But know I will be disappointed because, as earlier indicated, the head gasket tabs (indicating the FRONT is at the font)are where they are supposed to be (visible at the front of the engine).

However these little steam holes might be an issue (although I am pretty sure the existing gasket does not impede them).

Those trianglular passages between cylinders are not related to smaller steam holes. Right! But are the triangular passages also for water?

I know those freeze plugs will be a struggle because I have tried on other occasions. But this time I will apply heat. If you hear sirens and see a marina on fire you will know I just severed my close relationship with Mr. Ford.

Question about the thermostat. The little copper (or brass) sensor faces the engine - right? (it points to the back of the engine/boat). Right?

More later!

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Reply.

April 6 2013, 3:27 PM 


Those trianglular passages between cylinders are not related to smaller steam holes. Right! But are the triangular passages also for water?

-Yes, the triangular passages pass the coolant through block primarily on the exhaust side of the ehad and block. The small steam holes, if equipped, at the top ensure no air bubble and the free movement of coolant on the intake side.

I know those freeze plugs will be a struggle because I have tried on other occasions. But this time I will apply heat. If you hear sirens and see a marina on fire you will know I just severed my close relationship with Mr. Ford.

-One trick is to drill a small hole in the center of each steel plug, screw in about 1/3rd of the way a screw and then use vice grips to grab the screw. Use a hanmmer to beat on the vice grips or use a big screw driver or pry bar as a lever thru the jaws of the grips.

Question about the thermostat. The little copper (or brass) sensor faces the engine - right? (it points to the back of the engine/boat). Right?

-Yes, the spring side or sensor side always faces the engine.

More later!

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Mayday! No Steam Holes. None!

April 6 2013, 5:30 PM 

Dropped into the house to get something to light the propane torch.

I took off the port-side exhaust manifold (that 4-bolt Ford system is so mickey mouse) and then the port-side head.

As expected the head gasket was correctly installed and openings in the head match those on the block.

But, get this! NO STEAM HOLES! In the block or the head.

The gasket has left imprints of where steam holes might be found but scratching and digging there only exposes solid metal.

Bob, I have photos and will send them.

For now, I am not removing the starboard head because the gasket tab is exposed at the front and it is an identical set-up to the port side.

This thing is driving me bonkers! I will not get those drain plugs out and poke in bits of wire. But, frankly, I have no more good ideas.

The thermostat was correctly installed, there is no sign of gunk or obstructions inside the various water passages, the heads look great (they are brand new).

I am very reluctant to put it all back together and have the same pinging/power-loss/over-heat problems.

Like "military intelligence," "pleasure boating" is a bit of an oxymoron!

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

The plot thickens.....again.

April 6 2013, 6:42 PM 

So the block has no holes nor do the heads have either the kidney-shaped eyebrow or hole at the top of the heads face. Found some pics below in the meantime. Having no holes isn't uncommon btw as later OEM Ford heads and block did not have them either.

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-ford-techboard/425402-steam-holes-block-drill.html

Then a.) as the engine was not overheating before (correct?) the new heads were added and b.) we now know the old heads would not have had steam holes either (even if they did they could not have functioned w/o matching holes in the block) c.) the head gaskets are on correctly......the problem lies elsewhere.

Btw, you should be able to look into the block water jacket with the head removed and a strong light and using that coat hanger wire to poke around and see if they are clear. Unless the block's water passages are really loaded up with crud, the other area not addressed is the intake manifold itself.

I can't image why your replacement Windsor intake may somehow inadvertently block coolant flow to the top of the engine but hey.....I'm also running out of ideas. In fact, the intake gaskets, unless they leak coolant into the engine or have an external leak, should also span a wide range of various Windsor heads and intakes. Do you still have the old heads and intake for a water port comparison?










 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Old Heads

April 6 2013, 7:47 PM 

When I first got into this I took the old heads and intake manifold to the rebuild shop. They did not do much and then called me and said, go and see a wrecker for some "new" ones. These ones are crap. Look at the holes in the intake manifold!

There are only two Ford wreckers here and I got some not bad looking heads (but no 6-bolt intake manifold) soon thereafter.

The rebuild guy started working on these "new" heads but I stood him down because I found this matched set of 1. 2 older - but much nicer looking - heads and 2. the 8-bolt intake manifold (this is the kit now on the boat).

By the time I arrived with this matched set time I urged haste with the rebuild.

There was now quite a pile of my stuff on crowded benches at the rebuild place. When I walked out with this 3rd (and final) set I gave them permission to chuck the orginal set in their recycle bin.

Big mistake!

I will organize my trouble light and peer into those spaces. Here comes the crud search. It would be a relief if I found something.

And now I have the intake manifold on the dock and I will run a hose through it. Who knows? Might be a ferret living in there?

Bob, did you get the photos in your email?

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Nope, no pics.....

April 6 2013, 7:52 PM 

Try ity again.

bobmaag1090@comcast.net



 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Sources of the Problem

April 6 2013, 8:03 PM 

Bob ... you have it right. The block never had steam holes. So, it is reasonable to assume the old heads did not have them.

Hence, new heads replicate what was there before.

The boat now pings, misses and dies!

It is the same block, ignition, sterndrive etc etc etc.

The only difference is the "new" intake manifold and heads.

So, considering the cause of the problem we have either 1. something arising from the presence of these "new" heads/manifold or 2. Some other cause (not related to heads/manifold) that chose this time to turn up and confuse the citizens!!

If the latter, the timing is coincidental and truly regretable.

Another thing. The block/heads have those decent-sized water passages but the Fel-Pro head gasket provides only tiny circular holes for the flow. Does that pulley and freshwater pump provide enough psi to move coolant through those meagre holes? In other words, do Fel-Pro know what they are doing? [People keep saying I have the correct head gasket but it is hard to believe]

 
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(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Yes, the gasket

April 6 2013, 8:45 PM 

shown below should be exactly the one you have by the same Fel-Pro part #. Does yours look the same?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-8548pt2/media/images

Note the holes on the lower edge (the pic is upside down) closest to the exhaust side are slighty larger and correspond to the triangular shaped openings in the block deck. The upper holes are smaller. These different sizes of small holes do allow enough coolant flow and in fact are designed to slow the rush of coolant, prevent air pockets, etc. So, as long as yours look identical, the 'Front' is to the front and the tabs stick out on each lower edge.....the head gaskets aren't the problem.

Still puzzled here as well and one thing that STILL bothers me especailly is why your temp gauge shows well under 190F and the dizty is very hot to the touch....as well as the engine's performance would seem to indicate overheating in the extreme.

Found an old Ford water flow drawing for a Windsor:

http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=4912.0

May have to zoom the view to clearly see the tiny white arrows. Note the flow around the lower edge of the head, then the upper edge, then up thru the intake manifold/head juncture. Note especially the juncture between the intake manifold and the head at the front of the engine. Makes me wonder what intake manifold gaskets are being used and do they differ from the old gaskets? Could the water port at the front (from the head to the intake to back side of the thermostat) be blcoked by the new gaskets? Perhaps marine gaskets differ but I can't imagine why.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Vacuum leak?

April 6 2013, 9:45 PM 

Yes, that is the head gasket. Fel-Pro 8548PT2. Ok, I acknowledge your point. The holes are small but sufficient to do the job!

And yes, I agree, the temperature gauge is a mystery. Maybe I will get a new temperature sender. Or, if necessary, a gauge.

I just put a pretty powerful hose through the intake manifold. No owls, ferrets, otters or eagles. Nothing! Just clean water.

I will also go on a crud search (in the block) but it is now raining. Maybe tomorrow.

Just now, I was thinking about non-head, non-intake manifold issues.

As part of these changes, the carb and distributor have been on and off the engine. When I started losing power last summer I paid $600 for a new Performer series 4-barrel Edelbrok carb (which, apart from a Holley a few hundred years ago) is what I have always used.

I once had a mysterious ailment with this engine. Turned out the gasket under the carb was torn. Hence, there was a vacuum leak.

This time I have had the two carbs (original and new) on and off so many times I am wondering if I might have screwed something up.

There is an aluminium adapter (about 3/4" inch high) that sits between the carb and the intake manifold. A hose comes off this adapter and goes into a pretty snug rubber seal in the starboard rocker cover.

The Edelbrok instruction book says "do not use an open gasket" under these carbs. Hence, I have good supplies of the 4 barrel gaskets.

But, what do I need between the intake manifold and the adapter. An open gasket? Right?

How did I have this before? Alright, in order, from the bottom up.

1. Intake manifold
2. An open gasket
3. The aluminium adapter with the hose facing the rear of the engine
4. A 4-barrel gasket on top of the adapter
5. The carburettor

These gaskets have two holes at each corner which I do not like. I prefer the 1-hole version that nicely fits my carb. studs.

Anyway, at present, because of the adapter, the carb sits about an 3/4" off the surface of the intake manifold.

Probably has nothing to do with my problems. Just a thought.



 
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(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

All sounds fine.

April 6 2013, 9:50 PM 

If you'd had a bad gasket leak, the engine would run rough, miss, etc. cold or hot. This is where the propane torch would prove a vacuum leak or not.

See my post above about the water flow diagram as I added more info. Does the curent intake manifold gasket somehow block the front port of the new head (i.e water from the head flows into the intake's water port right up to the thermostat opening)? Hold the gasket up against the intake manifold water port (front)and then the head's front water port. Blockage here?

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Photos Went This Time

April 6 2013, 10:52 PM 

This time the timing is right and a few photos of the Windsor should have landed in your inbox.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Well, maybe...

April 7 2013, 9:00 AM 

the timimg was right but still no e-mail nor any pics this a.m.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Photos Lost in Space

April 7 2013, 2:19 PM 

Bloody 'ell ... I checked anmd re-checked your (ie. Bob's) email address and, last night, sent several photos.

I compressed them to make life easier for your server.

However, comcast might have some limit on the size of attachments.

So, I will now resend just two photos (to your email address). After compressing them even more.

I think the photos are important because they very much illustrate what I have been talking about.

 
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Tom R
(no login)
12.249.183.62

Carb base

April 7 2013, 12:13 PM 

Unless there's a vacuum leak, that gasket is not likely your issue. I run an open 1/8" open spacer under my 4-hole 1" stock spacer (prob same as yours)without any issues. PCV system healthy. I don't know if it could cause vacuum leak under higher load and not idle; but it's a $3 mainenance item.

-When you say the distributor was hot - how hot? Same as the intake manifold hot? Stock Prestolite distributor?

-Did you check the timing at 2500,3000,3500 rpms? The advance curve will make a big difference. My advance curve isn't at full advance until around 3500 rpms, I imagine yours would be similar. You can have that tested off the boat as well.

We ran D0OE-c Heads on a 8.6:1 CR 351W in our boat for about 25 years without any detonation issues,so I don't think there's any inherant incompatibility with a marine application. However, our boat was able achieve 4400 rpms at wot - and cruising speed was 3300 - 3500 rpms, so there was a lighter load on the engine.

What's your location - Salt water? Heat exchanger or raw water cooled? I'm assuming you run a heat exchanger - Has it been flushed?

To pull a freeze plug, use a hammer and a chisel or rod or anything that'll allow you to punch one side of it. It'll turn so you can grab the other side of it with pliers and yank it out - or pry it out.

This thread is getting too long - maybe a new one?

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Long thread, long ordeal!

April 7 2013, 2:14 PM 

Tom ... many thanks for this. Answers to your questions:

1. Hot distributor. It's a Mallory with the Unilite module. After about 12-mins it is too hot to touch with a finger. Hold a hand there and it will be burned. Even the distributor cap is hot. Heat is being transmitted from the engine block.

2. Timing at different speeds. Yes, started out doing the timing while idling at the dock. Then went on the river and tried doing it at 3000 rpms (based on engine behaviour, not the light). What I have not done is this. Dial-up the light to 3000 then, at the dock, try and run the engine under load - up to 3000 rpm. Then bring the distributor back to TDC. I am now having 2nd thoughts about my el cheapo timing light and, on Monday, might spring for a new one. Any suggestions?

Because there is nothing deeply suspicious about the intake manifold or heads, I am back to thinking it is a "peripheral" problem. With timing the No. 1 suspect. If the timing was out, would that generate excessive heat?

3. 4400 rpms at WOT? Yes, I know about this. When I get through this crisis I will dip into my (quite large) collection of Volvo props and do some experiments. Frankly, 4400 rpms is a bit scary. When I hit 3600 rpms (running light on half-empty tanks) I can hit 25 knots and the boat feels animated. This is a aluminium commercial workboat and I have weight on board (tools, pumps etc). The boat is weight-sensitive. Even an extra passenger in noticeable.

4. Location. Am in a tidal freshwater river. Fresh for most of the day. But as the tide floods, saltwater arrives. When operating normally I am in freshwater for 30 mins (or so) and then go into saltwater. Being an aluminium boat (and controversy over bottom paint), freshwater saves the aggravation of barnacles picked-up in saltwater.

5. Heat exchanger. Yes, it's the typical marinized Ford 351 Volvo AQ240 package. Raw water is pumped through the heat exchanger which cools freshwater/coolant circulated through the engine by the recently inspected internal (freshwater) pump. Not long ago I took the heat exchanger to a bench and ensured those little (about 1/8th") passages are open. I also blasted it with a high pressure hose. Clean as a whistle!

However, you are onto a good point. In the past I have been a bit casual about the ratio of freshwater and coolant in the heat exchanger. I am aware there can be vapor locks (or voids) in the system and this could trigger an overheat. So I need to know how much water/coolant goes into my heat exchanger and be careful about this.

I am sure there are no obstructions in the heat exchanger. And I put hoses back on as they were before. But, are there obstructions (such as crud)in void spaces within the engine? Hence, today's plug removal and crud search with wire.

6. Pulling the Freeze Plug. I will try heat first. And hit it with a hammer and chisel later! Bloody boats!

7. Thread too long. Yep, same with this ordeal. Like most things in life it is probably quite simple. I have a tendency to tear large stuff apart. When the answer is quite small and accessible.

Tom .. thanks for your response ... all good points.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Voids.

April 7 2013, 4:18 PM 

Still no e-mail nor pics Roger. Don't know why.

The voids issue makes a lot of sense at this point and may also explain why the temp gauge never redlines.

If the probe (sensor) end is not actually touching the coolant at the top of the intake manifold this may explain the false (low) reading. Filling up the freshwater side of the engine and slapping the cap on (I have to assume it has a cap) may not allow the engine to burp a big air bubble that always occurs when engine slowly heats up to where the thermostat opens.

Drilling that 1/8" hole in the flat spot of the thermostat housing allows that air bubble (if this is the issue) to disapate and allow a near 100% fill of coolant. Run 'till hot and see if the coolant level is within say 1"-2" of the fill top.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

No visible crud

April 7 2013, 9:39 PM 

Used a light to look into the head water passages. Also poked around with screwdrivers and wire. Looks clean!

However, the two coolant drain plugs (one on each side of the block) are not giving up without a fight. They had allen-key type depressions but, with me swinging on the socket wrench, they quickly turned to mush. Am tempted to use a hammer and chisel. Or drill them out. An Easy-Out will not work here. But, because everything else looks clean, these plugs can wait until a summer day. Why did Henry Ford use such tiny plugs? Grrrh!

I am out of options and, starting tomorrow, will reassemble the engine. I have just repainted (Ford blue) the intake and exhaust manifolds. Because of heat, paint put on not long ago has already degraded. Have bought new gaskets.

I have a new temperature sender coming tomorrow although the current one looks (and feels) like it sticks down low enough to catch the coolant. It is in the intake manifold about 3" back from the thermostat.

I am also thinking of looking into the innards of the distributor. I am pretty sure both springs are attached and those throw-rod things working. But, who knows?

This heat exchanger burping business might be part of my problem. And yes (Bob) there is a cap.

Does anyone know the volume of fluid (water and coolant mixed) for the 351 plus the heat exchanger and hoses? Just fill it up! I know! But, if I knew the amount (and had a lot left over) I would know the system is not full.

Today I repainted the timing marks and, with the front of the engine not encumbered by a pump, alternator and pulleys, I see a block number. Some digits are hard to read but looks like C9JE 8059A. Mean anything to anyone? Is it alright to put intake manifold 3D25 D1JE 9425 BA on this block?

Not much is gained by having heads and manifolds in the back of my car. So, after showing them to a bloke who knows about this stuff, I will reassemble the engine and be very meticulous about the timing (maybe with a new timing light I looked at today!).

Just don't mention pinging!

What other options are there?


 
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fletch
(no login)
24.18.115.166

Re: No visible crud

April 8 2013, 12:21 AM 

I have used my shop vac (carefully) to remove trapped air from my cooling system.

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Marinzed vacuum cleaner!

April 8 2013, 12:38 AM 

Fletch ... good idea ... Tomorrow I am taking a vacuum to the boat to pick up gasket shavings(created by removing heads and manifolds and peeling off gasket material with a wallpaper stripping knife).

Regarding air pockets in the freshwater system, I have been told to massage the big hose that goes into the block. Good idea. But not so easy with an almost brand new (and fairly rigid) hose. I suppose I could hit it with a block of wood!

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Sensor + Voids

April 8 2013, 8:51 AM 

I have a new temperature sender coming tomorrow although the current one looks (and feels) like it sticks down low enough to catch the coolant. It is in the intake manifold about 3" back from the thermostat.

-I did not explain what I meant very well. Yes, the probe end of the sensor surely is long enough. But, what I meant was if a large air bubble forms in the water passage area around the thermostat housing and intake manifold water passages....the sensor end isn't in any water/coolant. It's dry, suspended in that air bubble and that may explain the low temperature readings. And yes, a bubble does form in just about all engines on coolant refill....until the thermostat opens, the water level drops and the coolant level is topped off. You could be a quart or two low if it's not refilled after the termostat opens. Again, that small 1/8 hole in the thermosat allows water to pass on the intial fill and generally prevent any air bubble (it's 100% blocked otherwise until the thermostat opens).

-Would this be weird (and a kick in the ass!) if the thermostat itself is at fault, never opens and the air pocket also aids in the fast overehating?

Unless you've done this already.....pop out the thermostat and place it in a pot of hot water on a stove. Raise the heat slowly until it opens. I'll guess it's a 180F - 192F unit. It should open WELL BEFORE before the water boils at 212F. And once it starts to open keep the heat on and make sure it opens all the way. A candy of meat thermometer helps here too.






 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Hopefully, This Is It!

April 8 2013, 12:40 PM 

Your latest analysis is persuasive. And congruent with the symptons (overheat + shutdown in the same place, after 12 to 15 mins. of running).

And I must confess my pattern has been to fill the heat ex. with coolant + water, put the cap on, and go. I have never taken steps to detect (or remove) air locks. I will drill the hole in the thermostat and be more careful when I get this monster back together.

Bob, about the photos? What happened? According to my send box, they went.

Just to confirm ..... it is comcast.net ... and the 1090 in your address, they are all numbers.

Alernatively, do you have access to another email address?


 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Yes....

April 8 2013, 1:52 PM 

that would be great. Still no e-mail nor pics and yes it's: bobmaag1090@comcast.net

Don't know why even the e-mails have never arrived.


 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Pics and e-mail have arrived!

April 8 2013, 6:03 PM 

They mst have made a few loops around the Moon! Haha!

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

Going Back Together

April 8 2013, 8:01 PM 

There being no point in driving around with boat engine parts in the back of a car, today was the beginning of the big reassemble. But first I had a reliable bloke look at the block number, along with the head and intake manifold (in the back of the car). Do they go together? Yes, he said.

Head now on. Intake manifold etc tomorrow. Before reinstalling the distributor, I will dig into its nether regions and see if everything is alright there.

Took the Shop-Vac to the marina to pick up bits of gasket and to clean the bilge and sucked-up a lifter (from under a push-rod). But retrieved it from inside the vacuum cleaner.

Also had a close look at the two lifters from under what were once bent push-rods. They look pretty concave. Not the ideal flat-looking situation in Bob's photo (above). Also, I assume there is no "top" or "bottom" to these push rods?

At the moment, I am gambling on this freshwater burping business. On the water outlet containing the thermostat there is a hose outlet. This sends water to a heater in the front of the boat. But because I have never connected the heater it just cycles back to the engine. Anyway, next time I fill the heat exchanger I will leave this hose off the outlet - so as to encourage burping. And I will drill the hole in the thermostat.

I was not able to buy a replacement temperature sender but have since found some in the boat. I do not think this is my problem but, even so, the disjunction between what the gauge says and heat on my hand, is hard to explain.

Also, given the price of super-duper timing lights, I might keep the one I have!

This afternoon sun came out and it was quite nice on the river. Not so good tomorrow. But I am determined to keep going. I should have it going by tomorrow. Or the next day.

 
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(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

The pushrods.....

April 8 2013, 10:13 PM 

can go in either way. Shoot a pic of the bottom of those two lifter iti you can. Straight on and at say a 45 degree angle. Good luck!

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

When Bad News Becomes Good!

April 9 2013, 9:52 PM 

I have some bad (no, good!) news.

Opened the distributor and found the hook on one spring stretched to a point where it was doing SFA. Distributor would have been running very advanced.

No wonder it was running so hot and the engine did not know which was front, back or breakfast time.

I do not whether to laugh and smile or dismiss this as another false lead! I am suppressijng undue optimism because I have been a boater for too long!

Despite rain today I got the intake manifold on and most of the stuff at the front of the engine (water pumps etc).

Weather clearing later in the week.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

That is....

April 9 2013, 10:17 PM 

good news. See my e-mail.

Your diagnosis is correct: bad spring, for whatever reason = way too much advance. Odd too as the springs usually last (almost) forever.

Hey, maybe you should buy a lottery ticket as just maybe......you've been lucky. LOL!

 
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fletch
(no login)
24.18.115.166

funny that

April 10 2013, 12:50 PM 

I started going through my tune on the Fairlane the other day and wasn't happy with the advance I was getting out of the Mallory magnetic distributor. It is a mechanical, non vacuum advance unit. Kept fiddling with it and finally found my advance spring and guage kit but couldn't find the directions. After digging through the car file cabinet in the shop I finally found it and began to go through the advance curves and such. All I had done with the kit after purchasing it was to reset the total advance, left the springs alone.

That's when I found it noted: "Never use both purple springs."

So, what do you suppose I found on the advance plate.

Yep, two purple springs.

starts and idles better now with a change of that big spring.


 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

What the Dockrats Said About Mallory

April 10 2013, 8:42 PM 

I have used this Mallory distributor ever since I ditched points and went for electronic ignition (mostly to overcome starting problems in winter and other damp weather). It was a long time ago.

I have always thought it was alright and carry far too many spare caps, modules, rotors etc etc.

This is how it is with boats. Spare this and spare that!

I have always thought the Mallory was ok but this spring episode has caused me to think again.

Moreover, one of the local dock rats (who knows of what he speaketh) looked at the distributor and uttered one word.

"Crap," he said.

Oh well, when the sun comes out I am ready to forgive just about everyone. Although, after a short day today (due to rain) I am still not underway.

Exhaust manifolds still off and raw water and freshwater pump pulleys are now out of alignment. Must be because I bought a "new" (i.e. old, but reconditioned) freshwater pump.

However, putting it back together is better than tearing it apart.

 
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(Login free02)
101.172.42.165

Re: What the Dockrats Said About Mallory

April 11 2013, 2:02 AM 

i hope you replaced those lifters once they concave there done and stuffed

and they don't rotate in there lifter bores if there bad enough

lifters should have a ever so slight high point on the bottom...not flat...and not con-caved if they are there stuffed

not sure what the baseplate on your carb is (does it have a hollow base plate or a solid cast one????????) iv had trouble with a particular holley the one with a one piece body and hollow base plate.
when i used this carb on my intake which had a channel/E.G.R behind the back throttle blades it would give me a slight vacuum leak and give some of the symptoms you have had i know some of the windsor cast iron intakes can have this problem cause of the small carb pad... the hollow part of the base plate can over hang the carb pad and dose not seal

might be another thing to check while your putting it back together

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

So Close But Still Not Right

April 13 2013, 9:16 PM 

Finally, sunshine and another long day with the Windsor.

Got everything bolted on and turned the key.

It runs. But pretty rough. Have adjusted the timing several times but cannot get it to idle nicely.

Am back running on fuel from the boat tanks. Plenty of fuel pressure at the carb. Dropped in the distributor with engine at TDC and the rotor pointing at Cylinder No. 1.

Ran the engine up to 2000 revs - in gear while attached to the dock - set the timing light "dial up" to 20 and yes, the engine is at TDC.

I would like to run it up to 3000 rpms at the dock. But even 2000 is hairy!

Once I got it started I did a quick once-over with the propane torch - looking for gasket leaks etc. No leaks.

It is as if the timing does not want to settle (on 10 degrees BTDC). Sort of wanders around.

Am wondering if the distributor is still not right.

Am loathe to play with idle jets on the Edelbrok 1409 (unless, of course, you tell me what to do).

I have now spent so much time with my head in the engine room other (recently arrived) boaters think I know what I am doing. So they ask for advice. Err, yea, right!

Tommorrow I will remove the prop and make sure everything is turning freely. With regard to rough running and refusal to idle nicely, what next?

 
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(no login)
72.25.192.4

When Does It End?

April 15 2013, 1:41 AM 

Tried again today. But the engine is racing (and dies at anything less than 2000 rpms) and the timing is not stable. Shining the light on timing marks, they tend to wander around.

This has to be either 1. the distributor or 2. timing chain. To eliminate the chain, I once again turned the engine to TDC, pointed the rotor at 1 and stuck a finger in the hole (of Cylinder 1). It all lines up! Could is still be a loose timing chain - despite the fact everything lines up?

I have again removed the distributor and will try and interest someone in it tommorrow.

In the meantime, I have been reading about advance curves, purple springs (in the distributor) and related matters. All quite fascinating. But not as much fun as goiing down the river!

At the moment, it is too unstable to contemplate leaving the dock. So I am worse off than before.

As well, Mallory now seems to have replaced the YLU554CV distributor (this is the Ford V8 marine distributor - I assume "U" is for the Unilite module).

If anyone here knows about springs in this distributor, please say something! I have a feeling the wrong spring went in a few days ago.

I cannot even find a diagram showing what lies under the plate with the Unlite module on it.

 
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fletch
(no login)
24.18.115.166

under the module

April 15 2013, 2:35 AM 

Remove the cap, pull the rotor out. Loosen the nuts that fasten the distributor cap clips to the sides of the distributor. Don't remove them. That should loosen the module plate (breaker plate in old distrubutors) enough to lift the module out of the way. That should expose the advance weights and advance springs. There shold NOT be a pair of purple springs. There should be two springs in there, a weak one and a heavy one and they should both be engaged with the spring hangers at zero advance. (the wrong spring will be loose on the hangers and make idle setting difficult) You should be able to advance the distributor through the full range by hand. Check to see if the bushings that the advance weights are intact. Mine originally were plastic and disintigrated so I made some from 1/8" brass barbed hose nipples and turned them to size with a file and electric drill. Your advance plate may have an adjustment as well. You adjust it by loosening the two torx head screws and insert Mallory guages in the slots to conform to the desired total advance. Just open them fully and hold them there while you tighten the screws.

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.12.242.241

Agree...

April 15 2013, 7:33 AM 

the 2 purple springs may be the issue. Mallory has an advance curve kit (check that the drawing pic matchs your advance) with springs and the keys.

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/600/650/650-29014.pdf

 
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