Marine 351 Windsor heads?November 10 2003 at 6:01 PM
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|Trucks (no login)|
from IP address 188.8.131.52
I have heard that heads used in marine applications, are better heads than stock heads for cars, trucks, cause they don't have all of the sissy smog regulations to deal with in those applications.Anybody have a comment? I was sort of considering a set if I could find a set?
Waste of money.No score for this post
|November 10 2003, 7:17 PM |
Whether marine or street, 302W or 351W, all are junk for any even mild performance engine. Small exhaust ports kill any hp potential (need to really bookmark this as it's often repeated here by me!). Heavy porting is iffy since you'll hit water unless the porter has experience with early Ford iron.
Best investment (in iron) is a pair of new or used GT-40 heads (not the relocated sprark plug angled GT-40P's, unless you plan to buy "P" specific headers as well. Then the "P"'s are an excellent choice) that will bolt-on and give much more hp and rpm range. As others have stated, junkyard for a '96 Explorer V-8 (not the later years) as they have the GT-40's with the std. spark plug angle. Ford still sells them and many aftermarket delears can source them. Many used sets also available on the 'Web.
Another good head is the larger World Products (same head sold under Jack Roush's nameplate) iron head. Forget the name (Windsor Senior?) but it's the larger of the two World Ford 302-351W heads.
You can make power with Iron fords headsNo score for this post
|November 10 2003, 9:27 PM |
I have a stock 302 with marine heads 48cc camber heads and it goes 13.00's and my dad has a 351W with 69 351W heads and he goes 11.40's and these are street cars. You just have to know how to build them right and do a good port job or get someone to do it for you.
Agree....to a point.No score for this post
|November 11 2003, 9:46 AM |
Just think though of how much faster either engine would be with GT-40's or, better yet, just about any alum. aftermarket head. The $$ spent to port stock OEM heads, including a rebuild, likely does not even exceed the the flow capability of dead stock GT-40's, pointing out just how poor OEM heads really are. Many back to back tests in Hot Rod, 5.0 Mustangs and a host of Ford specific magazines and websites over the years have verified this fact.
In fact, good, used GT-40's are often available for less than $250 a pair, with screw-in studs and guide plates, let alone (usually) 1.94I's and 1.54E's. Compared the the cost of overhauling stock W heads with the machine work to install the studs, plates and new and larger valves, the cost difference heavily favors the GT's.
Better yet, the alum. Canfield, AFR, Edelbrocks and others easily will give 35-55 more hp than even reworked GT-40's. Frankly, unless someone is truly bucks-down and even if they can perform their own home porting, it not worth fooling with OEM heads, IMHO.
You'll also never hear anyone complain about having to pull-off their GT-40 or alum. aftermarket heads and replace them with even ported OEM's...due to lack of power!
Try this site: www.allfordmustangs.com
Click on "Ford TECH head information comparison". Compare dead stock or ported "W" heads, steel or alum., to one another. See how much flow OEM Ford "W"
stock heads give up to just about any other head.
351 windsor headsNo score for this post
|May 12 2011, 5:50 PM |
I have a 351 w marine engine with heads that have GT5C18 and GT5B25, I am not sure of the B on the second head, hard to read. I can't find plugs for the engine. Anyone?
Wow, 8 year old posts!No score for this post
|May 12 2011, 6:16 PM |
??? 11 sec. on 69 heads???No score for this post
|November 11 2003, 4:13 PM |
You must provide some more details on that 11 sec. 69 head 351 ride!!! I've been posting around for some builds for my 69 Windsor for Bracket racing.
11 sec 351 Brandon??No score for this post
|November 13 2003, 5:56 PM |
Did I understand 11 sec et's with 69 351w heads??? Please more details.
11sec stang 69 headsNo score for this post
|November 14 2003, 7:07 AM |
Sorry I would have to get more details because it my dads car but i do know this The 351 is .030 over. The heads where ported and polished. with stainless steal valves. 2.02 intake and 1.67 exhuast. It has an Port O Sonic intake. I'm not sure what cam he has it in right now but i will ask him for all the specs.
68 Ford Falcon FE396 3190lb with me 11.65@115
73 F350 Flat bed hauler FE360 4speed
90 Ford Mustang 302
|Joe D. Craine|
Brandon,No score for this post
|May 12 2011, 9:28 PM |
I don't mean to argue with you, but it is not possible to install a 2.020 intake valve and then a 1.67 exhaust valve in the C9 or D0 351W heads without moving the valve guides, and it is cost prohibitive for a loss of flow. I have been porting those heads since 1972, and the largest valve that will fit safely is a 1.960 and a 1.600 exhaust. I have gotten them to flow 243cfm this way, but it is expensive. I raced a 351W +.040" for many years, and 11 second ets. are easy. I agree with Bob though, a new set of just about any aftermarket head will flow 250 cfm, and have better seats, guides, and thick walls to avoid leaks from porting the stockers within a few thousandths of their life. Jjoe-JDC.
Hey Bob just wonderingNo score for this post
|November 11 2003, 9:43 PM |
what size valves are in the GT-40 heads and what is the cc on the heads.
Ask and you shall receive!No score for this post
|November 12 2003, 10:10 AM |
Hey. listen to Joe C.No score for this post
|May 12 2011, 11:18 PM |
as he does head porting of all kinds. I'm all for using OEM heads when rules or $ are involved but my posts tend to lean to what makes the most sense for the hobby racer/streeter. etc. One can get, no doubt, good flow from OEM head but....sometimes it pays to look to aftermarket heads for overall better deal.
Water flow in 351 Windsor marineNo score for this post
|December 10 2012, 12:50 AM |
I have just installed new heads on the Ford Windsor 351 in my boat (the Volvo AQ240 package driving a 280 leg).
The block and heads have J-shaped voids (or holes for water circulation.
The water openings are the same - at the fore and aft ends of the block & heads.
But the Felpro head gasket for this engine has water openings only at the aft end of the gasket.
So, in effect, the gasket shuts off half the water flow - at the front end.
I searched high and low for a gasket matching the holes in the head - ie. 4 cylinders and water voids.
But numerous people reasured me I had the correct gasket. But it makes no sense.
Now I am worried I will be looking at nasty over-heat situation!
Any advice much appreciated!
You may be o.k.No score for this post
|December 10 2012, 9:15 AM |
A poster named Luchog from another site said it best:
"Head gaskets are not reversible. If you look, you can see this one is marked front. The front side of the gasket blocks off the block to head water passages. This forces the water to flow from the water pump through the block up to the head, and forward to the thermostat. Installing the gasket the wrong way will cause the water to flow straight from the pump to the thermostat, not going through the block and head, resulting in massive overheating. Don't get this wrong."
Fortunately, there is an easy way to tell if the head gaskets are installed correctly. Look to the lower edge, front, of each cylinder head. In the pic, note the small tab sticking out from the lower edge. Both sides MUST have this tab showing as all Ford W (and FE's for that matter) gaskets have this feature. If you find one or both tabs at the rear (stern in your case!) the gaskets have been 'reversed' and must be removed or one will have, as noted, massive overheating. Note too that all Ford W gaskets (at least all I have seen) are die-stamped "Front". This is a common problem btw.
|This message has been edited by machoneman from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Dec 10, 2012 9:31 AM|
Advice much appreciatedNo score for this post
|December 10 2012, 9:49 AM |
You have made my day!
I carefully inspected the head gasket and ensured FRONT went to the front.
And yes, the tabs are as indicated in your photo.
Moreover, your explanation concerning the direction of water flow makes good sense.
It is just that, at the time I did the gasket (about 2 weeks ago), those kidney-shaped water passages (at the aft end of the gasket) seemed awfully small. And it made no sense to block off identical water passages at the forward end (FRONT) of the block & heads.
Anyway, I just have to put on a new water hose (the big one from the bottom of the heat exchanger to the stub down the front of the engine) and I am ready to go.
I have been pretty meticulous about torquing everything down. And it is now painted Ford blue.
With this being a boat, (and it being winter), I cannot afford to have masty noises in mid-strait.
So i greatly appreciate your advice.
I am a university professor. Not a mechanic. Everyone says "hire a marine mechanic". But that is not to easy. In this computer-control-of-inventory age, there are fewer and fewer people with the necessary skills. Mostly retired (or dsemi-retired) older people. And, with a boat, the owner has to know the origin of all those creaks, groans and rattles!
Once again ... thank you!
I even re-painted the timing marks on the flywheel. So here's hoping!
Glad to help! n/mNo score for this post
|December 10 2012, 12:22 PM |
Follow-Up on Thread 1No score for this post
|December 29 2012, 10:04 PM |
Whoops ... I have an update on this head gasket business. Should have put it here. But accidentally dumped it in Thread 1.
First Run on New (Rebuilt) Boat EngineNo score for this post
|December 29 2012, 10:07 PM |
OK ... here is the update.
I earlier asked here about Windsor head gaskets with water passages only on the aft end (in a boat). This, when the block and heads has water passages at the front and aft ends. I was reassured about this and told to ensure the gasket corners poked out from the front corners of the heads. They do! Because I saw the word FRONT on the Fel-Pro gasket!
I have replaced the heads on the Ford Windsor in my boat (Volvo AQ240 package) and today went for a run. At first there was pinging at 2500 rpm so I played with the timing. Advice varies from 6 to 14 degrees BTDC! Right now it is at about 10 degrees BTDC.
Anyway, I think the timing is better and the pinging may have gone. However, I am not getting the expected speed (23 knots) and power. While the port side heat exchanger is cool, starboard is pretty hot (hard to touch). There has always been a port/std temperature difference but not as much as now. However, the temp sender (in the intake manifold) is working and the temp is about right - 180 degrees. Tomorrow I will remove a plug from the std. side exhaust manifold and see if water (or just steam) comes out.
When I took off my old intake manifold it had 3 holes in the underside. And the heads looked like crap. My old "J" (meaning marine) intake manifold had 6 bolts down each side (late 70s?). The "new" intake manifold has 8 bolts down each side (early 70s?). The "new" heads (which came with this 8-bolt manifold) are a little bit bigger (longer) than the old ones. So there have been issues bolting on the coil, alternator etc. However, I think I have solved those.
ight now I am thinking about port/std heat differences. And timing?
All advice greatly appreciated.
Bit More on the Windsor MarineNo score for this post
|December 29 2012, 11:14 PM |
When I bought the "new" (i.e. 1970s) heads I was surprised to find they took a larger spark plug (13/16th) than my previous heads. I have since heard these large-plug heads are older (early 70s?) than my original ones (later 70s?).
I installed these 13/16 plugs without adjusting gaps. Pretty well went in as they came out of the box. Not smart, I know!
Apart from the fact I now have several spare boxes of smaller plugs, I am wondering if my power/pinging problem could be related to the plugs.
Here is a complaint. Once the exhaust manifiolds are one, there is SFA room to manipulate spark plugs!
Also, normal plug wire suppliers do not realise a bloke like me needs 90 degrees at the distributor and the plug ends. In the end, I had to muck around with "universal" (sort of el cheapo) wires. But, with this being a boat (where reliability is VERY important) there must be a better option.
However, now everything is painted Ford blue, it looks nice.
Now ... run you sucker!