Quick Answers ...
Quote: "I think you have just not done a good job of qualifying what exactly you mean by "all else being same"
All means all.
Quote: "or what exactly one should be taking away from all of this open vs closed thread."
This current thread is Bill's "I want proof" thread. Perhaps when the dust settles, if I'm still around, I'll explain why I even bothered attempting to set the record straight.
Quote: "These motors you identify were built 35 years ago. Many things have changed. Fuels for one were very different back then. You don't say what fuel was used."
Of course fuels are different, what's your point? We used premium pump gas.
I'm getting tired of people using the "old data" argument against me. There's not a person here who would hesitate presenting any document to support their position no matter how old it was. You will not find an authoratative document that states the VE of quench chamber heads is better than the VE of open chamber heads. Because its not true. The heads were developed by Ford at the same time and are equals with the exception of chamber volume.
Quote: "Can the open chambers get beyond 10:1? These were rather low HP motors, under 400 HP. "All else being same" are you claiming you can extrapolate the old data to 500, 550, 600 plus HP, 11:1, 12:1, compression or higher?"
Quote: "I think you just need to qualify better what you are actually saying."
I just did.
Quote: "If the open chambers are somehow, "diamonds still in the rough", undiscovered, how is that when 35 years have passed and folks have not uncovered the treasure?"
Lack of information, mis-information, lack of experience, a comfortable belief system, the dominance of the small block Chevy in the aftermarket, all come to mind.
Quote: "Is there any modern evidence that open chambers have competed at the highest level with closed chamber heads? Are you saying they can do this? Maybe you are not intending to go there as you do say "street motor" but you don't put a HP level on it or qualify it clearly."
For now I want to point two things out ... (1) Denny Wydendorf mentioned that one of his Super Stock racing friends preferred the open chamber heads ... I'm only guessing but I'll bet thats 700 horsepower and 10,000 rpm racing (2) Kid V, The Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET Champion, ran open chamber heads and claimed he went faster with them than he did with quench chamber heads ... about 10 seconds ... that's fast in my book.
Denny is one of the only old time experienced drag race guys that haven't been chased away from this forum by the "flat earth" mentality here. I appreciate him coming out in support of my position.
I'm having a hard time staying around here myself. I don't do this to receive the flack from those with a comfortable belief system. Or to receive warnings in the form of bible verses, for gosh sake! Holy cow ... its enough to drive a man to drink.
I'm often contacted privately by well known people, big names, especially when I make one of my informative posts. They are normally supportive, sometimes offering their own private testimony, sometimes correcting me, or offering additional information. I appreciate each and every one of them that take the time to write. I am open minded and enjoy being corrected when I'm wrong. Encouragement is always needed.
There's a lot of celebrity Cleveland fans out there, and you'd be surprised who reads this forum. Since they contact me privately I'm kept very aware of who reads this forum, and knowing that makes me feel like a college student submitting a term paper with each and every post. I'm not an engineer you know, just a gearhead, hell I was an art major (design).
I'm also contacted and encouraged by forum members privately. But few people besides Tom, Blizz, Tinman, Roo want to come out in support publicly ... people don't want to get involved in the controversey, drama, etc. I don't blame them. Its the private encouragement that I receive that keeps me coming back, knowing there are open minds out there who appreciate my effort, makes it worthwhile for me. Thanks guys, you know who you are. I do wish there was more public support.
I'd like to get beyond the basics so we can discuss the meat and potatoes such as head porting, combustion chamber modifications, cam timing, cam lobe design, valve train set-up. That may attract some knowlegable participants. But as it is, we can't even mention the lubrication system or titanium valves without an argument ... although we've gotten better there.
Final thought ... when a member tells someone with the experience of Denny Wydendorf that he doesn't know what he's talking about when he says to use lifter bushings, or tells him he runs his bearing clearances too big ... those guys are running guys like Denny away and doing the rest of you a big dis-service. This forum will serve all of us better with the input from guys like Denny, and a little less mouth and a little more respect from the guys trying to sell you parts or who have nothing better to do than argue.
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If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!