(Login 427designer) Members from IP address 24.154.104.253
I am heading into the machining phase of the project so it is just a matter of time now until blocks will be ready for test building and then sales. I have avoided taking deposits up till now lest people attach the Genesis debaucle to my project. They took deposits without even having a pattern completed. I have a partially machined block with tooling and fixturing underway. I have invested quite a bit of myself and my money into his and thus am not fearful to say that I am at the point where I am comfortable to take deposits on the first blocks that will be produced.
My plan is to do aluminum fist, since it is easier to machine, and my machine shop has gone through the learning curve on the FE blocks already. I have some 25 people interested in the aluminum already and another 25 interested in iron. By this I mean I have that many names on file. I imagine that once I begin taking deposits takers will come out of the woodwork. Guys on this forum have been loyal and patient supporters of my efforts so far, and so I would like to offer my promised discounted price to forum members.
Those who want aluminum are looking at $2600.00
Those who are going to want iron are in at $2100.00
Ofcourse, your membership prior to this post will have to be verified, with exceptions to those on other forums that have already expressed interest and have cash burning holes in their pockets. You know who you are.
I would like to see a 30% deposit on the discounted price. When these things start to ship I will be completing the sale according to the order in which deposits were made. I believe to be fair that I must refuse to take full payments.
This post is not intended to tell you where to send your money but to see if my proposal is acceptable. If anyone would like to criticize (constuctively) I will entertain suggestions. Ofcourse, if you do not like the flavor of any of this, you need not feel any obligation to "risk" placing a deposit.
Questions? Comments? Takers? The line forms here gentlemen.
Tod Buttermore
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:23 AM This message has been edited by 427designer from IP address 75.24.46.54 on Sep 26, 2007 2:30 PM
machinist! What would be the potential of this new block? 427ci 780hp or more? If i remember correctly someone said this could possiably be punch out 440ci or they were consuming to much burbon. Mark at MME built a 393ci to make what?700 hp N/A . I am throwing this out there just to get an idea what the potential could be. I am intersted in the new block
Cam bores I believe are the only unknown. Other than that assume the same level required even with a DART, align hone to proper crush, deck to clearance ratio, bore hone to size, etc...not including custom mods such as lifter bore bushing, 50mm cam, o-ring, etc...
TLI Racing Engines
13916 SH16
Medina, TX 78055
www.tliracing.com
the additional material to the blocks in the main web areas that was talked about in a previous post? I remember someone posting that they had talked to you about this and you had told them you had identified areas in your block where you wanted to add additional material. I remember several magazine articles in the mid 70's talking about how the main webs would crack in the stock 351C blocks under high performance use. Also, Ty, thanks for bringing up the subject of lifter bore bushings. Do you think it's the way to go in order to make the aluminum blocks live a long and happy life?
If they're not standard already I would assume these are ares that need addressing when we're talking about 1600HP...
...Yes you heard right...We've got the heads, intake, and turbos on stand-bye, just waiting for the go from Todd. 2009 X/S NMCA as 08 is already completed for the Duster. Sorry Todd...I want to be the first one that splits the block
TLI Racing Engines
13916 SH16
Medina, TX 78055
www.tliracing.com
This message has been edited by tliracing from IP address 12.189.32.58 on Aug 26, 2007 6:25 PM This message has been edited by tliracing from IP address 12.189.32.38 on Aug 26, 2007 6:08 PM
Dave Wharan (Login DaveWharran) Members 207.255.195.114
I'm still in
August 26 2007, 7:20 PM
For an aluminum block Tod.
30% sounds fair.
Will the money be placed in any kind of escrow account or ?
I'm remembering RF (GT40 manufacturer in Australia) going bankrupt a few years ago taking many customers deposits with them. Not good....
What cylinder liners will be used?
4 bolt main caps included?
Any update pictures?
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:25 AM This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.107.107 on Sep 23, 2007 8:07 AM
I am just putting out the feelers right now. Of the 50 people who said they wanted blocks only about 5 have stepped up with any plan to put down 30% on the discounted price. I'm sure it will improve as word gets out. I fully understand the apprehension of many to risk their hard earned money on what they view as a potential for loss. But I am using this as an indicator of just how serious the market really is. If I can't get a dozen or so interested in depositing a few bucks, what promise does the market really have? See my point?
Tod
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:25 AM
I live in Phoenix AZ. Will I be able to find a place to finish the machine work for me? Is there any known place in Phoenix that will do this work? I 'think' most places might give you a blank stare and 'what am I supposed to do with this' look BUT I am by no means educated in this area.
If I know I can get the block finished then I would send the money for a deposit for sure. Finished is machined and assembled....
We're prepared to offer fully machined blocks if requested. I've gone through as many channels possible to prepare these for the public once we see a specimen in-house. Being that we already carry the BHJ fixtures we're gonna try to have them blueprinted as well to the original SVO/Ford specs, as BHJ refers to them. These will be turnkey on delivery minus the decking which needs to be done while mocked up in rotating assembly phase.
TLI Racing Engines
13916 SH16
Medina, TX 78055
www.tliracing.com
Try Kip Martin...I think its under KMR or KME in the yellow pages....he does lots of good stuff...
A good friend of mine does his cylinder head flowing here in MT, for his Super Stocker 66 mustang....which holds the SS/K record for et and Mph...
When you guys test the new block and in the event you find it requires any modifications/improvements, will you be able to keep us updated and supply recommendation information with each unit? Also in the unlikely event that you find a design floor or a problem that may extend the production start time, would you consider any type of refund?
I would otherwise have no problems with a deposit, just tell me where to send the money.
if I can't deliver. The deposit account is more of a pacifier for the wife so that she won't object so much to my funding the project the rest of the way with our personal money. She's been pretty quiet so far as I've made the pattern, bought tooling and whatever other thousands I've spent. I just want to keep things smooth, ya know?
Tod
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:26 AM
I understand the situation and I hope I didn't sound rude. Im ready to send the funds just as soon as you tell me where to send.
I'll grab an alloy block.
Contact me any time and if you like I can do a direct deposit into your account.
Also maybe if there are enough interested buyers on here in Aus we could join forces and lower our freight costs. Any comments appreciated.
...it may be helpful to add to the specs and description tab a description of the as delivered condition of the blocks. Forgive me if it has been addressed and I missed it but there has been a lot of discussion about the possible features and variations on the block. I'm not certain where it all landed and consequently, I'm not certain what I would be buying.
Ty mentioned in similar level of finish as Dart and others.
Would that be finished machined except mains, cam (No bearings installed but ready to receive common bearings), and lifter bores, and deck which are roughed in? Is that so?
I take it the alloy blocks are delivered complete with sleeves. Are the alloy blocks available at the 4.150 stated bore? Can you specify the bore, say 4.00 or 4.125"?
There was mention of splayed for bolt caps. Pro-Gram I believe was mentioned. What is the main cap and bolt configuration and are they supplied at the stated price?
Do you know where the block ended up as far as weight?
The specs page mentioned 9.5 deck optional. Is that available at this time or just 9.2 for now?
Congrats on the project progressing to this stage and all the best going forward.
Best Regards,
Kelly
This message has been edited by kcoffield from IP address 12.217.99.200 on Aug 29, 2007 4:44 AM
i am in the united kingdom and have expressed interest to you via email for a few blocks .
however i certainly have no problem in sending you a deposit for an aluminium block but would need for the machining of crank/cam bores and lifters to be carried out state side , as i do not know of any anyone here who can carry out the work. could this be something to which you could arrange for me for a cost.
Tod, It has a while hope things are well. I def am in. Once we get an account to put deposits in. I also am waiting to find out about the machining options and what is req....Tim
Tod in on the blocks as Tim aka Dragboss . Just placed a deposit on a new stroker kit at MME shop last week . Good luck with the New blocks .
Jim Willett
Mark McKeown (Login manyponies) Members 70.21.11.109
Re: Deposits anyone?
September 1 2007, 11:20 AM
Will the block be availabe with bores and lifter bores undersized enough to correct to exact dimensions and placement. I ask this because we have found NO blocks with these in the correct placements. We Probe and report all blocks on our CNC and have found none to be exact. We have had to write proprietary software to correct blocks the best they can be unless they are undersized to begin with. Its amazing how bad some block really are, new and old.
I never heard a word about this kind of thing with the FE. We sold over a hundred of them and that never came up. It would be perfectly fine with me to allow the finish machine shop (MME, TLI, Survival for example)to finish bore the lifters. That would make my life much easier.
Mark, if you can tell me what diameters you would like to see I will look into using those as standard delivered dimensions. Ty, Barry?
Clock's ticking.
Tod
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:26 AM
Tod , The reason block maufactureers do no hear of this is because there are only a handfull of machines in the world with the ability to give its owner the feedback. Not picking on yours or anyelses blocks but it is assumed that blockes have eveything in the correct places, One reason for the assumption is hardly enyone has the ability to check, and if they have the ability they still have to figure a compromise to correct it. The onlt way we have found is to leave stuff shall enough to final machine. Setting a block up on a CNC to final machine is tricky because its not like making a part from scratch. A billet has no centers or things to keep in tolerance. a block however has so many holes and compuond angles not only to match , but to correct. I would like to see the lifters at .750 and the bores at 3.950. This way we can machine new blocks from new blocks. We find cylinde bores on some aftermarket blocks to be as much as .015 from their correct X,Y placement. Its funny to see arguments on correct rod to stroke ratio when the cylinder placement can change the effective rod length by an inch and no one even knows it. Imagine a 5 inch log connecting rod in a stroker. It HAPPENS .
I have my large bore FEs (4.350 & up) roughed by a "Boring Shop" here in Detroit. They do mainly industrial stuff, the machines are absolutely huge (and old), and they work strictly from a print. They don't use the original machining on the block at all - other than two fixture index datum points. We find the block's delivered machined bores all over the place relative to the axis locations and each other.
I also find deck heights all over relative to 90 degrees, front to back, and plain old flatness. I resize lifter bores often - most are too tight on the new FE blocks, but have not relocated any. I do not have the equipment to do so - - I certainly believe that they can be wrong based on the above experience with the cylinder bores.
I suspect that many of the issues we see are the result of running light production equipment on fairly short runs. Many pieces of common automotive machine equipment are designed for rebuilding rather than base manufacturing - and lack the mass and structure to hold tolerances when making big fast cuts on large chunks of metal.
this will change the rod stroke ratio by how much? like to know. i take it you junk all blocks that need to be line bore or line honed. line bore can be done, without cutting into block- line hone cuts both. so ---
Mark McKeown (Login manyponies) Members 70.21.11.109
Re: XY placement
September 6 2007, 12:23 PM
Align boring still requires an align hone. We do not junk blocks that need these operations. All machining is referenced from the mains by our methods. Production machining is referenced from the pan rail. What you never want to do is bore a block and then fix the mains. That would be like building a house from the roof down. The r/s ratio cacculation for a bore not centered on the mains is very, very lengthy... simply because it is variable. Unlike a r/s ratio centered on the mains that is a constant. It produces a r/s ratio that resembles a sine wave. The amplitude woould be proportional to the amount of off center. This discussion could get into detail we really don't have tha space for here. Just trust that things are not as we take them for granted as being. Of coarse... sometimes that works in our favor...or not.
could be a big can of worms to open. i got a can opener. now try to explain offset wrist pins. now try to make the stay on bore center axis. PS-- the forum has the space for this topic
This message has been edited by 2slow from IP address 64.12.117.12 on Sep 6, 2007 3:14 PM
Mark McKeown (Login manyponies) Members 70.21.11.109
Re: your statment mark
September 10 2007, 7:27 PM
Dan, Just because many shops do soemthing one way does not necessarly make it the best. OEM blocks are bored on the mains but we also see the tolerances all over the place. Honing should be done on a performance engine for several reasons. One a cutting tool gets worn as it is used. It is not uncommon to see the begining of a bore to be shightly larger than the end. Second the bearinghas to transfer heat to the bloc so it does not become over-heated itself. This is accomplished much better with a honeed finish than a spirled cut finish. Third A cutting tool is not as accurate as a hone which can remove minut material. Look at an aftemarket block. they are almost ALL honed. They don't do that to waste time or to be able to charge more. Its just the RIGHT way to do it.
Now to be bruttally honest on the math and thoery part of the other stuff, this is why I don't think its a good use of time to discuss something that will not get done in the real world. If short cuts are taken on standard maching processes, like proper finishes ect,( align honing after boring is not to remove alot of metat) they will never go thru the MAJOR trouble to put the bores and lifter bores where they are sopposed to be. Yes, it fun to theorize and wonder, But its more practicle wonder about stuff that may actually get accompolished.
Not tring to be a hard head, just tring to use time wisely.
I talked to Bob Glidden about this a bout 30 years ago when we were having problems with timing chains on Cleveland's and he told me . Check the alignment of the mains and if they need any work through that block away and get a block that is straight , you can't build an engine that will make power if the chain is only going to last 10 or 15 minutes . I did what he said and have never used a block with a loose timing chain since. blocks are harder to find now but I still refuse to use a block that the crank is to close to the cam.
This message has been edited by 417strokers from IP address 70.77.16.209 on Dec 21, 2008 12:56 AM
There shouldnt be much more of a machining cost or a longer time frame for the Iron blocks. Cast Iron is very soft probably softer then some of the different types of aluminum you can get.
First, I didn't say which was harder or softer, I said it was easier for the machine shop. That has nothing to do with metal hardness. They primarily machine aluminum. Second, the brinnell for 356 T6 is around 90. Class 35 grey iron is about 210. That's without a little nickle or copper or whatever other "top-secret" ingredients you put in it. Put in a percent of nickle and .25 % of copper and you can get to 240 easily. Which do you want to machine especially with $100.00 gun drills? Not meaning to argue here but...
Tod
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:27 AM
Machinability of cast iron is very poor compared to
September 20 2007, 5:32 PM
cast aluminum. Cast iron is made up of many different elements primarily iron/carbon/silicon in different percentages. The different percentages create a wide range of materials and properties. The high % carbon in all cast iron makes it solidify into a heterogeneous material that contains a number of different constituents in the micro structure. Liken it in a very crude way to concrete with different types sizes and shapes and hardness of rock in the mix. Properties also vary widely with the cooling process used and with the post heat treat. Many of the constituents in cast iron are very abrasive so machinability suffers. Tod is working aluminum first because it is easier to cast and easier to machine. He wants to reduce the slope of his learning curve. Tod will develop his machining program in aluminum and then transition it to iron. My guess is he'll be using more and different cutting tools, different speeds, feeds etc and doing a lot more rough and finish passes for the iron casting.
I have a customer who came by yesterday with a Cleveland block for me to ultra sonic thickness test for him. Anyway, it turned out that it has some terribly bad cylinders from rust so it's not able to be used. I told him about your blocks any good time frame on a cast iron piece that comes with all machining done except for finish boring? He wants to get started on the project and he has all of his parts so progress could happen quickly... Anything available yet?
Is that the drag racer with the ported CHI 3V heads, intake, and solid roller
cam from Mark McKeown? He was by checking out my XE block and I mentioned
your name to him. He wanted my XE block but had already purchased the pistons
which looked to be a little undersize for my block.
I just talked with my customer and he's VERY interested in getting a block. He says that he would like an aluminum version and it sounds like that's what's going to be done first. When will one be available to use for a CHI headed 408 build? He wants to build one and put it to the test in his 3000lb Mach 1 drag car....
Tom Custom (Premier Login 58custom) Forum Owner 75.31.107.107
Tod, your old email addy is in your posts again.
September 23 2007, 8:06 AM
Better check that the correct one is there every time you post for a while. You can go to your own posts, click the "edit" link near the bottom and change it in any of your posts.
Also, I can change it myself in your posts in the various block threads linked at the top of the forum, if that's OK with you. I changed one as a test and it worked fine.
TIME Magazine's 2006 Man of the Year
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.107.107 on Sep 23, 2007 8:09 AM
I plan to make more samples within a week or so, as the machine shop is working on their machining fixtures. I REALLY want to have a block to display at the PRI so I'm pushing for that. I ordered my sleeves and talked to Pro-Gram about an order for the caps. I have 20 blocks spoken for and will notify the buyers where to send their deposits in the order they emailed me. 20 is convenient because my first order of caps has to be 20 sets. Sometime within the next few weeks I will also sample an iron block. Maybe it can go to PRI as a raw block. People should know that getting a good casting is the toughest part. Drilling and tapping holes is easy. I think once a good iron sample is in the public eye I will be inundated with buyers.
I am working with TLI and DVS Restorations to get blocks out initially and into the pages of Primedia publications. There's more going on than people might think. I'd rather do than talk. Keep in mind that I had a stroke 2 years ago and my left hand isn't what it used to be. I don't like to type, I have to correct alot of mistakes.
Tod
This message has been edited by 58custom from IP address 75.31.104.228 on Jan 26, 2008 7:28 AM
So, it's been 2 months since you said a tenative 3 months would be a timeframe, and over a week since you said it would be a week before new samples would be made.
It took me over a week to get approved to add a message and I've been trying to contact you for awhile now about putting down a deposit for a block. I hope this message actually makes it somewhere where the appropriate person gets it and can contact me back.
Tod my son is going to PRI show are you going to be setup there. He is wanting aluminum block. Sorry did not see 6 to 8 weeks away. I need your mailing address to send money. Thanks Dan!
This message has been edited by 620mustang from IP address 12.198.66.17 on Dec 2, 2007 6:30 PM
Hi Tod, would shipment to Australia be out of the question? I am happy to do the excercise
of calculating shipping / customs / exchange rate, but would you have any idea???
Thanks.
That is incredible! I need a cigarette now! My 70 MACH is waiting in the corner of the shop for its new aluminum cleveland. Looking forward to seeing one put together. Great Work Todd!
Rob
