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351C stroker question??

January 17 2012 at 11:59 AM
  (Login MMUBM5)
Member
from IP address 99.194.201.19

I plan to build a 351C stroker motor. I'm an older, retired Ford mechanic that wants a faster toy. I have a 1972, 4-bolt main block that was just bored to 4.030". I don't want to build an all out race engine, just a good street motor that will be installed in my 1970 Mach 1, 4-speed, 4:30 rear gear. I was thinking a 408 stroker with the stock 4V heads, along with a roller hydraulic cam, would be the way to go for a good street motor. Something that would rev around 6000 RPM. I checked out the internet and called several engine shops/builders that specialize in the 351C. Now I'm confussed. Everyone has a different opinion, from what size stroker kit to install to the type of heads to use. What I thought would be somewhat simple, has become hard, because of a vast amount conflicting opinions. I do know about rod angle and I am concerned about cylinder wall cracking. Some builders say there is a concern and some say not to worry. Some tell me to install hypereutectic pistons, because less clearance is required, better/quieter for a street motor. Some say no way, go forged pistons. I also realize the stock 4V heads won't produce the kind of power the CHI or AFD heads do, but do I need the max HP for the street? With some of these heads you have to use their intakes, which is costly. Also, I could get too much HP and the 1970 Mustang body may not handle this unless frame rail supports are installed. I just want some honest opinions from car owners that have done a 351C stroker and don't have anything they are trying to sell me that influences their advice. I want to build something that works well, that will last and not give me headaches. I do know cheap is not always better. Thanks much.


    
This message has been edited by MMUBM5 from IP address 99.194.201.19 on Jan 17, 2012 12:01 PM
This message has been edited by MMUBM5 from IP address 99.194.201.19 on Jan 17, 2012 12:01 PM


 
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AuthorReply

(Login 70vert)
Member
64.244.192.35

Re: 351C stroker question??

January 17 2012, 12:15 PM 

I haven't finished it yet, but I am working on a 408 stroker with 4V CC iron heads. Mine will also be mild street build with a hydro cam and running on pump gas. I'm shooting for about 10-10.25:1 compression. I bought a stroker kit from CHP. I decided to go to the forged kit just in case I want to go to better heads/cam for more power at a later time. I also like the peace of mind of a forged unit in case something happens like bad gas, stuck throttle, etc. I'm not worried about a little more noise at start up (I probably won't hear it over the exhaust). I had forged pistons in my last 302 build and I drove it in -20 weather middle of winter for several years. No problems at all and I didn't notice any unusual noise from the pistons. People make a big deal about oil consumption with the wrist pin intersecting the oil control ring, but I'm not going to drive this a hundred thousand miles daily commuting. I'll be lucky if I get 3,000 miles a year driving it on nice days. I probably won't wear it out. I'll probably decide I want to upgrade the engine before it ever gets worn out.

I'm a little worried about cracking a cylinder, but I had the block sonic checked and I don't think I should be too worried in a street application. It's not going to spend that much time at max revs. I think rod/stroke ratio is over-blown and a 408 r/s ratio isn't that bad even compared to some production vehicles that typically last over 100,000 miles.

If you plan to drive a ton and live in a always sunny area, maybe keep the r/s ratio down more and keep the wrist pin out of the oil control rings. If you have a 3 month summer like I do and won't be driving it a ton, I wouldn't worry about it.

 
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John
(Login 1972blackmach1)
Member
67.175.138.116

Pistons

January 17 2012, 12:23 PM 

All production supercharged and turbocharged engines come with forged pistons that last as long if not longer than non forged.Zr1 ,AMG, turbo volvo's etc etc..

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 17 2012, 4:27 PM 

Sounds like we're doing about the same thing. I just hate to dump $2500.00 or so into a set of aluminum heads so I can get more HP and probably in more trouble. The prices for CHI or AFD were in that price range. I looked at all the other aluminum heads being sold for a Cleveland and there are cheaper sets, but not too many good praises for them. Like you said, the heads can always be changed out later. I live in Northern Illinois and our fun time for old cars is basicly late April to October. I probably won't drive 3000 miles a year either. I would rather put the head money into an A/C unit for the car. Are you doing anything special to your iron heads? I just planned on new seats, guides, valves, springs and whatever else. The R/S ratio on a 408 is not all that bad. I know the cylinder walls on a 351C block are thin and I then when I read a few horror stories about cracked cylinders after they installed a 408 stroker, I started to worry. Who knows how these were driven and what kind of RPM's they saw. I'm keeping the car's original engine as it was. If the stroker breaks, I still have the original to stick back in the car.

 
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Mike
(Login 70vert)
Member
64.244.192.35

Re: 351C stroker questions??

January 18 2012, 11:56 AM 

Yeah sounds like our builds and goals are pretty similar to me too.

The 4V CC heads I have already have some light port work done to them. I took them to my machine shop and they said it looks like whoever did it knew what they were doing. So, I just had the springs checked and shimmed. My heads already had aftermarket 1 piece valves and a good set of double springs in them as well. I thought about putting hardened seats into them but most of the feedback I've seen online is you don't really need hardened seats. I wouldn't run original 2 pc valves, but other than that I wouldn't do too much with 4V CC heads. Just let 'em buck!

I think since you already have the stock stroke 351C and this is your extra motor, you should go for all the cubes. The reason I went to 408 is that I wanted a 7,000 rpm max motor and I think that even 408 cubes won't reach the limits of the 4V CC heads at 7,000 rpm. So to me the way to maximize the performance of the 4V CC heads in my rpm limit is to get the most cubes I can. It would be fun to build a 8,000+ rpm stock stroke 351C, but I think a 408 will be cheaper and easier on parts in the long run.

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 20 2012, 10:54 AM 

I think the 408 stroker is the way to go. A 393 or 383 would be good too. Just getting the cubes up will help the air flow in the heads. As far as head work, I plan on new SS, one piece valves, new guides, springs, retainers, and I was told to do the seats too. You are right about the seats and your reason for not replacing them, but my heads have been played with before. The seats are low and my mechinist said the valves are sitting too low. I did do a mild port job on these years ago. Mostly removed casting slag and did some exhaust work, trying to enlarge the port. My heads still have the rocker arm pedistals. Crane made a kit years ago, that allowed for better rockers. I should just mill and drill them and go with studs. I was going to stay in the lower 6000 RPM zone, maybe up to 6300. I didn't to rev too high because of the so called cylinder wall stress cracking.

 
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tinman
(Login tinman351)
Moderators
71.57.55.107

4032 vs 2618 alloy

January 17 2012, 1:20 PM 

whoever said Forged and Hypereutectic was probably right, read here...

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0810w_mahle_piston_alloy_comparison/index.html

4032 being high silicon probably qualifies it as Hypereutectic alloy, the 2618 probably Hypoeutectic

forged construction, better than cast... best of both worlds?

depends upon the application wink.gif

but a 4.30 rear gear sounds like a lot, with a 26" tire you'll tach 6k at 108 mph

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 17 2012, 3:10 PM 

Good article. Thanks. The 4032 piston sounds alot like the hypereutectic type. I called KB Pistons or Keith Black and they told me that they didn't even make a hypereutectic piston that would work with a 408 stroker kit. That's not to say someone else doesn't. The tech guy I spoke with said a hypereutectic piston would be good for at least 500 HP and is a better piston for a street motor that won't see much more than 6000 RPM. They are quieter and last longer, just like the Car Craft article says. And the 4:30 gear, you're right. It may go. I do plan on installing a five speed or Gear Vendors OD unit, but that's another chapter. Thanks.

 
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dion
(Login xdclevo)
Member
202.63.49.193

Re: 4032 vs 2618 alloy

January 17 2012, 3:29 PM 

I wouldn't look too hard into that Car Craft article, as Forged pistons havn't had big expansion/noisy running on cold motors since the old TRW Forged days, and the 2618 have tight piston to bore clearances and are light weight as well. Like stated, only forged pistons are availl off the shelf for a 408 and thats the way to go. The 4032 are listed as Factory replacemnt pistons on the probe site, so you would run them in a basic streeter with the std 351 crank only.

http://www.probeindustries.com/Probe_Domestic_Forged_Pistons_s/10.htm

I have had my 30 thou over, 408 Cleveland running for over 4 years with near 600HP and havn't touched it bar change the oil. When i race, i shift at 7400 rpm and it has been very reliable.

I think the 4V's will peform very close to any of the alloy head offerings out there, just pick the right piston CC to get you compression right. I run the Probe SRS 14213 with a 16CC dish to get my compression where i want it.

Are your 4V open or closed chamber? Are you going to fit good one piece valves and decent reatiners/locks etc?

 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

+1

January 17 2012, 3:42 PM 

Probe (or even Diamond, Mahle, JE, etc.) forged pistons would be a great choice.

Don't worry about excessive clearances like some of the older forged pistons used to run. Forged pistons these days run around .0045-.006" clearance depending on the brand and material. Your cast stuff usually goes at around .0015-.002".

If your block has the correct clearances, you will not hear the forged pistons....I promise.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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Rich
(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C Stroker Questions??

January 22 2012, 10:02 AM 

The heads I would be using are stock, 1970, 4V closed chamber with the rocker pedestals. I plan on new SS valves, new quides, new seats (maybe, if the machine shop recommends), new springs, new retainers, machine off the pedestals and some port clean up. I plan to do them right. I even thought about sending them off to a shop that specializes in 351C head work, but don't know if all that is worth it for a street motor. If I stick too much in them, I might as well go aluminum. I live in Northern Illinois where we have lots of E85 fuel. I thought about designing the engine to run on just E85. I'm not sure what compression ratio would be required and how E85 would be using a carburetor, since all modern cars using E85 are EFI. Any ideas?

 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

Another builder's opinion....

January 17 2012, 3:40 PM 

A 408 with the right cam and 4V heads will definitely surprise you. I'd aim for about 500-550 hp, which is certainly do-able with those components.

There are no issues with rod angles (some people get obsessive with that subject), rod ratios, or anything of the like.

As for the rotating assembly, a Scat cast crankshaft, Scat forged I-beam rods, and forged pistons would be the way I would go. For the money, forged pistons are just a couple hundred more than cast and you get a lot nicer piece...in most cases machined to a tighter tolerance, able to run smaller ring packs, etc. You would also have some room to grow if you wanted to ever upgrade to boost/spray.

This shouldn't be a hard choice, but with everything else in the world, everyone has their own opinions...

FWIW, I build Clevelands and have done all of these combinations...



Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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Steve.k
(Login steve.k)
Member
209.91.107.221

408stroker?

January 17 2012, 4:21 PM 

Well we have talked about this a few times on here for sure! What are your reasons for stroker? I think most have come to the consensus that with today's camshafts, carbs and other goodies a 550 - 600 hp c-motor is not that big of a deal even without stroking. If your heart is set on stroker than go for the gusto. I would buy one of the complete Stroker kits offerd from the various builders. The iron heads are very close on power so unless you have a ton of money or no iron heads then yes a new aluminum is the way to go. I myself went to the 400 block based stroker and knowing what I know now(info gained from this site) I would've built a real stout stock stroke Cleveland. It would have been way easier. Good luck in your build. Oh ya the Keith black hyper pistons are of very good quality and I have used them in 550 hp motor with zero issues.

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 22 2012, 10:20 AM 

Thanks for the info. I just decided the extra cubes would be fun for the street. I bought the 70 Mach 1 new in 1970 and I couldn't get the 428 CJ because of insurance cost. I bought one with the 351C instead. It ran good, but it never had that low end feel the 428 had. I just thought with all the stroker kits and new cams available for the 351C, why not have some fun. The motor I'm building is an extra block I bought. I'm saving the original motor as it was.

 
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bop
(Login hardbopper)
Member
147.239.4.22

good plan

January 22 2012, 2:35 PM 

"The motor I'm building is an extra block I bought. I'm saving the original motor as it was."

b

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 22 2012, 10:10 AM 

I am going with forged pistons. No questions! All you guys out there have all said the same thing about piston choices. I appreciate the good info. Thanks.

 
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(Login MsgtJoe)
Member
75.1.90.180

Another option is the 383 CI for quick revs and a better

January 17 2012, 4:41 PM 

rod ratio. I have a 383 CI, and I am constantly amazed at how quickly it revs. You could use a 3.750" stroke, 6.125" rod, and still good ring package at 1.200". Joe-JDC.

 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

Yes...or offset grind a factory crank for a 377....n/m

January 17 2012, 4:58 PM 



Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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(Premier Login blizzardND)
Forum Owner
69.178.219.74

Save the money on the heads and the stroker crank..

January 17 2012, 5:42 PM 

I'd stick the money into a 5 or 6 speed OD transmission, with those gears, a nice camshaft upgrade, roller rockers, a nice set of pistons on prepped stock rods, add a Blue Thunder intake and wind her up a bit, like she was born to.

Trust me, you won't out rev a set of 4V heads or hurt a 351C nodular iron stock crank on a street engine. Most of the street alloy heads actaully flow less than a set of mildly polished 4v's and with a 72 Mach, the weight iron vs alloy difference will not be noticeable.

With the OD tranny you will have the best of both worlds, a ripsnorting Charging Rino 351C or in your case 357C, that you can drive to the dragstrip and home afterwards. And brag to your buddies that she's basically stock. happy.gif

Trust me ( I own one) a car that's to hard on gas or hard to cool, is a car you probably wont drive as much as a well tuned well behaved crackle sharp stock stroke car that you can drive though the neighborhood at a comfortable rumble. Isn't driving it, the real reason for the hot rod in the first place?

Its all in how you are going to drive it. 4:30's 4speed even in a heavy 72 mustang is still more than enough for a smokeshow with a well tuned 357C. Up the Cu in to 383 or 408 and the higher torque will have you swapping gears due to the breakout force leaving the stop signs and lights.

It's your car and your money but you asked for our opinion, I'm here to help you make the most of what you have, and you have a bunch already. happy.gif

welcome to the forum, let us know what you decide.




Happy New Year 2012!!..

 
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(Premier Login blizzardND)
Forum Owner
69.178.219.74

Be sure to check out the engine builds page of this forum

January 17 2012, 5:46 PM 

You can see what other guys have built,
then by clicking on their login name you can email them to see how they like that particular build.

good luck
-blizz

Happy New Year 2012!!..

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 22 2012, 11:08 AM 

I plan on installing a 5 speed, OD trans. I was told a 6 speed requires too much cutting in the cars tunnel and I don't want to butcher up a 70 Mach 1 any more than I have to. I am also looking at Gear Vendors OD units,http://www.gearvendors.com/index.html, that bolt on the Ford 4 speed top loader. That would give my eight gears forward. I probably would never shift all eight gears, but they are there. I have no idea how they are compaired to a 5 speed trans. Cost wise, the GV OD may be cheaper. You may be right. Some of the 351C engine shops told me to stay with a 383 stroker because a 408 may have too much street torque. I think the cam shaft would have to do a lot with the torque curve. I am also have thoughts of burning E85 fuel instead of gasoline. E85 is all over Northern Illinois and would be over a dollar a gallon cheaper than premium. I'm just not sure about the compression ratio. Any thoughts? Thanks.

 
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bop
(Login hardbopper)
Member
147.239.4.22

GV

January 22 2012, 2:42 PM 

I may be wrong, but wouldn't a GV outweigh a 5 spd? Gotta love toploaders for authenticity:)
b

 
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(Login gpence)
A1
134.201.253.22

I owned a '72 Mach 1 long ago

January 17 2012, 7:14 PM 

351C, 4 speed top loader, 4.11:1 gears, Shelby manifold, 750 Holley (Ford version), ported quench heads, a hydraulic cam ground by Reed Cams to my spec (285/295). Headers & Cadillac mufflers. So much power it was hard keeping the street tires hooked up, even with traction bars and a traction lock diff. Nobody with a car using street tires could beat me, regardless of the size of the motor. These old '60s & '70s era cars don't hook up real well, its fairly easy to break the rear end loose and when they do they can get into all sorts of unwanted situations. Hard for me to imagine needing or being able to use more power.



-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 22 2012, 11:38 AM 

Thanks for your thoughts. You have written some very good 351C articles. Great reading. I haven't done anything yet. I bought a 72, 351C, 4 bolt main block and it was just bored to 4.030". Thats all the farther I've gotten, other than some research. I know bigger is not always better and the original 351C engine had some good HP. I just wanted to play around with more cubes, stock 4V heads and a roller cam. I wish there was a good EFI system I could look into instead of a carb, but EFI would be too costly. I also thought about using E85 as a fuel instead of gasoline. E85 is all over Northern Illinois and it is at least a dollar/gallon cheaper than premium gas. I'm not sure what the compression ratio should be. Do have any thoughts or ideas about E85? Thanks again.

 
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tinman
(Login tinman351)
Moderators
71.57.55.107

those old TRW's are still out there

January 18 2012, 3:23 AM 

i have 2 sets of 2408's... are they 2618 ?

and once again i'm finding conflicting info on my Probe SRP 206044's,
Summit is telling me they're 4032
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SRP-206044/

but Probe thinks they made them out of 2618-T61
http://www.probeindustries.com/Ford_351C_3_0cc_Flat_Top_SRS_Pistons_p/14113.htm

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing

 
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dion
(Login xdclevo)
Member
202.63.49.193

SRS or SRP?

January 18 2012, 6:53 AM 

Probe make SRS.

 
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tinman
(Login tinman351)
Moderators
71.57.55.107

Re: SRS or SRP?

January 20 2012, 1:25 PM 

yeah i'm messed up, JE SRP

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing

 
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(Login Falcon67)
Member
209.165.224.67

My 1/50 of a dollar

January 18 2012, 10:33 AM 

Either a 383 or a 408 - try to put the pistons on the deck and keep compression around 10~10.5:1 for street pump premium 93. Some of that depends on the cam. Use a kit from one of our forum suppliers (Brent, Mark, etc) that uses quality parts and is balanced as delivered. They will know what combo of parts works to balance the rotating assembly. you can't tell picking parts from a catalog. Your choice of pistons - forged or forged. Don't by a lesser quality piston - it's not worth it. I've never had any problems running forged and never hear them make any noise whatsoever. I've also run the old TRWs as tight as .0035 wall and not had issues. I had problems with my old block and split 5 cylinders plus lost the crank thrust bearing. I have 8 nice forged Probe pistons that are good to go for another engine. Not hurt one bit. They are so light that when they first arrived I thought Probe sent me an empty box.

Rod angle is for bench racing and internet fire fights. Some of the classic HiPerf engines have "bad" rod angles, never seemed to matter that much. Smokey liked long rods in his circle track engines. You're not building a 500 mile/200 MPH circle track engine.

My stock mild home ported 4V iron heads flowed 340 CFM intake/199 CFM exhaust at .500 - that ought to do you fine on a street motor. With a solid lifter 238/248 cam and 10.5:1, single 750 my 355 CID was putting out 480~500 depending on weather and altitude. Next motor will be a 408 with a tunnel ram and iron heads. I expect to be in the happy 600 HPs with that LOL.

Put frame connectors on your Mustang. I don't care if you're sticking a 289 in it - put 'em on the car. Those cars are soggy pretzels without additional under support. I prefer to use Competition Engineering "bolt in" bars, but weld them in both front and back. (their weld in bars are really for use with their spring relocation kit) Also, check your towers for any cracking while the engine is out. Our 70 Mustang has a 400+HP 351C in it and has maybe 2000 passes on the drag strip with no chassis problems. 1.58~1.60 60' every pass. It ran nothing but frame connectors for a while, until I got around to putting an 8 point bar in it. It runs mid 11s in the quarter and if I put a street car sized radiator in it you could drive it around town.


1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.

 
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Steve k
(Login steve.k)
Member
209.91.107.219

Look at Keith Fenstads build!

January 18 2012, 11:44 AM 

This summer I put a friend of mine in touch with Keith and he purchased Keith's car. That car has a 408 iron headed engine that dynoed at around 540 if I remember right. With1/8 mile gearing and 4000ft air up here George was running 10.85 first past out. This maybe a combo that interests you it's in the engine build section. I beleive Keith's email is available there and I'm quite certain he would be happy to talk to you. He is a die hard Cleveland guy like the rest of us. That motor seems happiest under 6500.

 
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Rodchucker
(Login Rodchucker)
Member
101.169.75.241

Max revs of a 408

January 19 2012, 4:10 AM 

What max revs could you aim for with a 408 race combo?

 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

How high do you wanna go?

January 19 2012, 6:29 AM 

Long stroke engines don't have problems revving, but the lighter that you can keep the rotating assembly components, the better.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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(Login steve.k)
Member
96.30.200.35

408 revs

January 19 2012, 9:16 AM 

The 408 I built made peak power at 6200 the 408 I mention above is right at 6500! Keith had the red line at 6700. My 434 made peak at 6700 and I pretty much kiss 7 out the back door.

 
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(Login Falcon67)
Member
209.165.224.67

Max revs on a 408 would be

January 19 2012, 3:02 PM 

1 RPM below where something lets go. Really. Other than that, its going to depend on the components, intake system and overall build. Lots of variables there.

1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.

 
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dion
(Login xdclevo)
Member
202.63.49.193

Re: Max revs of a 408

January 19 2012, 3:20 PM 

My limiter is set at 7400, and i shift just under that.

 
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Joel
(Login mtdewcowboy)
Member
184.155.55.144

Re: 351C stroker question??

January 19 2012, 5:38 PM 

I have a 408 street motor runs on 91
Its in a 70 Torino w/ a c6
I run forged pistions & forged steel crank
Runs around town no problems but lack of traction
4v OC heads mild port work & one piece valves
Pistons are flat tops giving me a 10.25 comp
No oil problem & runs hard to 6500 rpm
Engine looks stock & is built so I can add a bigger cam or heads & some go baby go juice but I think for the street it would be way too much. Drag radials go up in smoke now
Why build a 351 when a 408 will make 4v heads perform as they were made to & do it at a lower rpm

 
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Anton
(Login DoctorFortyForty)
Member
95.97.25.114

My experience

January 20 2012, 9:12 AM 

I have a 393C in a '72 Mach1. I have a SCAT forged crank, forged I-beam rods and SRP forged flat top pistons. No noise from pistons. I have iron 4V OC heads unported.

The motor runs well. Huge torque starting @ 2krpm. I had troubles above 4k but this was an ignition problem.
I do have an issue with oil consumption. Haven't had time to track it down.

BTW take Falcon67's advice on the frame connectors. A 72 Mustang body flexes like it was made from wet newspaper. I welded in the 'bolt-on' subframe connectors and had a friend fabricate a Monte Carlo bar that connects the two shock towers. Both are low cost mods. Since then the fun of driving has gone up a lot.

 
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(Login 2krazy)
Member
118.93.197.51

My 408c

January 20 2012, 7:01 PM 

I used a forged Scat kit & 4v OC heads, motors been going well for just over 12 months & gets reved to 7000rpm everytime I drive it.
The extra torque from the stroker kit has resulted in a lot less gearchanges & better burnouts ha <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> </div></body></html>

 
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tinman
(Login tinman351)
Moderators
71.57.55.107

the new KB ICON line is 2618

January 22 2012, 6:48 AM 

so back to the 'old days' ?

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing

 
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(Login 73torinosport)
Member
173.17.132.141

no one likes the 400 4V?

January 22 2012, 10:01 AM 

Just out of curiousity how come no one suggests a 400 with 4V or choice of aluminum heads with PMS spacers? I'm in the process of building one now, hopefully have it in and running by summer. Is a 408 stroked cleveland better somehow than a .030 overbored 400? Just seems like a economical alternative. Thoughts?

73 Gran Torino Sport:351C 4VCC/.030/KB flattop hypers/Comp XE274H/HS 1.73 RR/Torker/750VS/C4/3500stall/TCI manual valve body/9"tracloc 3.50

74 f100/360/4spd

98 pontiac grand prix gtp

 
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Steve.k
(Login steve.k)
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209.91.107.196

400 build

January 22 2012, 10:31 AM 

There is nothing wrong with building the 400 that's what I did and quite a few others also. However it's not as simple as it sounds. If the car originally came with 351c then headers,trans,motor mounts and various other things won't just bolt in. The 400 uses the 460 bell housing pattern so a trans swap is in order or bell housing if a 4 gear. Also there's a bunch of kits made for 351 but I only know of Tim Meyers kits for 400 also MME. There is some 400 builds in engine section that make good power so take a look there.

 
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(Login 73torinosport)
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173.17.132.141

Re: 400 build

January 22 2012, 10:45 AM 

That's true about motor mounts, bellhousing, crossmembers, etc. My 408 is going in a 73 torino sport, which had a 400 has an option, so mounts aren't a problem. I found a c4 bellhousing from a 351m, so I can still use the c4 that was behind the cleveland. I've got a couple sets of 4V headers for a cleveland in a torino chassis, so we'll see how much modification has to be done to get them to work.

73 Gran Torino Sport:351C 4VCC/.030/KB flattop hypers/Comp XE274H/HS 1.73 RR/Torker/750VS/C4/3500stall/TCI manual valve body/9"tracloc 3.50

74 f100/360/4spd

98 pontiac grand prix gtp

 
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tinman
(Login tinman351)
Moderators
71.57.55.107

say a prayer for that C4

January 22 2012, 12:30 PM 

behind a warm 400+

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing

 
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Ryan
(Login 73torinosport)
Member
173.17.132.141

did my homework on the c4

January 22 2012, 2:01 PM 

many are running the c4 behind some high power 385 series engines, so if built right I'm not too worried about it behind a fairly mild 400

73 Gran Torino Sport:351C 4VCC/.030/KB flattop hypers/Comp XE274H/HS 1.73 RR/Torker/750VS/C4/3500stall/TCI manual valve body/9"tracloc 3.50

74 f100/360/4spd

98 pontiac grand prix gtp

 
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Steve.k
(Login steve.k)
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209.91.107.196

Headers

January 22 2012, 1:13 PM 

I found on my 73 cougar that the only headers that fit were the 1 3/4 tube anything bigger were not even close. The drivers side had to be heavily modified to fit. I would suspect I'm down at least 25 hp with these headers as we dynoed with the 2" inch tubes which the engine liked. I think it's a lot easier to stay with the 351 as there are more after market parts available. I beleive the biggest tube header for the 400 is 13/4 and it's a 2v port flange. Knowing what I know now I would only do a 400 block deal if the car or truck had this engine to begin with! While blocks are cheap the retro fitting of parts to make it work costs way more in the end. An all out 351-408c would be more cost effective. Once we have a 351c block that can take some serious hp the possibilities will be endless.

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
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351C stroker questions??

January 22 2012, 3:04 PM 

I stayed with a 351C because I was told a 400M has a taller deck height and would not fit well in my 70 Mach 1. The taller deck makes the engine wider. Also, the 351C is the original engine used in the car. I have read several good articles about a 400 build and they crank out HP. Good luck with your project.

 
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Steve
(Login shawkins)
Member
98.194.128.55

400 in a Pantera

January 23 2012, 3:20 PM 

Nothing wrong with a 400, most 351C parts will interchanges. I built a 400 and put it in my Pantera with independent runner EFI.

 
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Dan Jones
(Login 74Pantera)
Member
76.215.111.82

Re: 351C stroker question??

January 22 2012, 10:21 AM 

Dave McLain and I run a dyno project for this forum and the Pantera club/forums
where we dyno test various Cleveland heads, intakes, headers, cams, etc. We've
built and dynoed 351C, 393C and 408C engines. For what you want to do, I'd
suggest either a 393C or a 408C. All three of my own Cleveland powered
vehicles started out 351C's. One is still a 351C, the other two are strokers
(403C = 4.005" bore by 4" stroke, 407C = 4.1" bore race block x 3.85" stroke).
For a street use, the strokers give you a wider torque band and/or allow you
to run a bigger cam. You can meet you goals with iron 4V heads and the extra
cubic inches really wake up the big 4V ports. With closed chamber heads, our
408C's have run best on only 28 to 30 degrees total timing (10:1 pump gas
engines). A 500 to 550 HP 408C is well mannered on the street. A 550 HP 351C
is considerably higher strung.

The price on strokers has come down so much that it hard to justify doing
a stock stroke build. Go with forged pistons. For street use, a cast crank
is fine for a 500 HP build but if you plan to shock the crank with drag race
launches and good traction, pay the extra $$$ for a forged crank. SCAT makes
a series of good quality stroker kits for the 351C. We've used both cast and
forged crank versions without issues. DSS has a really econo cast crank kit
but I've not tried it so can't speak to its quality. The 403C that I have
waiting to go on the dyno was sourced from Brent Lykins and was internally
balanced by him for a very reasonable cost. Our previous builds have all been
28.2 oz-in balance factor (standard 351C balance). Be aware that many 351C
stroker kits will require a bunch of expensive Mallory metal to internally
balance correctly. Drag race pistons are usually lighter (thinner crowns)
than oval track/road race stuff. I prefer the oval track pistons for street
duty under 6500 RPM. I've seen the lightweight stuff fail when open tracked.
Be aware that most 351C stroker cranks are SVO style cranks, essentially
Windsor cranks with 351C mains and require a spacer to make up the difference.
Ford Motorsport made a spacer for this purpose (p/n M-19009-A341) but it is
no longer available though you can sometimes find them in stock (I just found
a couple). They are simple to make and I've even heard of using a valve seat
of appropriate dimensions. Note the SCAT's cast 9000 series cranks have a
351C snout and don't need the spacer but their forged cranks need the spacer.
For 500 HP on street tires, a cast crank is okay but if are going to shock the
crank with drag race style starts on slicks or road race duty, go with a
forging.

> Rod angle is for bench racing and internet fire fights.

Jon Kaase's rule-of-thumb is 2" longer rod than stroke. He says that has
worked well on everything he's built from 289's to IHRA mountain motors.
The 4" stroke kits usually come with 6" SBC dimension rods so they meet
Jon's rule.

On 4V heads, run 6 to 8 degrees more exhaust duration but less lift (compared
to the intake lobe). The MPG "stinger" style exhaust port stuffers worked on
the dyno, as did a shorter rocker ratio on the exhaust (to get the lower
exhaust) lift . A good exhaust is a must. We've tested mufflers that lost
50+ HP and others (Magnaflows) that were as good as open headers. On a 400 HP
351C, cast iron 4V manifolds cost 36 HP compared to 1 3/4" primary diameter
(3" collector) long tube headers. A windage tray is also a good thing to do
with a big stroke crank.

With a hydraulic roller cam, 4V valves and a conventional dual spring package
run 140 lbs minimum on the seat (160 lbs will turn more RPM) and no more than
400 lbs or so open. Also pick a lobe meant for RPM (as opposed to torque)
and high rocker ratios. We'll be testing beehive springs in our next round
of dyno testing. They are supposed to be worth some RPM. We'll also be
testing some special hydraulic roller oil.

There are some issues to be aware of when running a hydraulic roller cam in
a 351C block. It varies from block-to-block and depends upon the size of the
chamfer at the top of the lifter bore but, on many blocks, the oil feed is
exposed at maximum lobe lift. Some manufacturers (like Comp) will reduce
the base circle of the cam so the OEM type lifters can be used. As a rule,
irregardless of how much lift that a camshaft has, the lifters generally
all stop in approximately the same location at the top unless the base
circle is deliberately reduced which can cause problems at the other end
of the lifter bores. With a reduced base circle cam, the OEM lifters
will usually be safe at maximum lift but some blocks will have interference
problems with the dog bones. A local shop has a fixture to machine the
block for clearance but it can also be done by hand. Comps link bar
lifters have the oil feed (and associated band on the lifter) in the same
place as the OEM lifters so have the same problems at max lobe lift.

The Crane/FRPP link bar retrofit hydraulic roller lifters have the oil
feed placed lower on the lifter body and do not have the max lift problem.
The Lunati hydraulic roller lifters (made by Morel) cost about half what the
Cranes do. Tim Meyer sent me a pair and I verified the oil feed hole is in
the same place as the Crane so they should work but they are heavier and may
not turn quite as much RPM. Gaterman also makes a clone of the Crane lifters
which cost about half as much. I think Erson's street SBF hydraulic roller
link bars are the Morels and should work. Be aware there are some Chinese
knock-offs of the Cranes that should be avoided.

Hydraulic roller cam cores can be either SADI (selectively austempered ductile
iron) or steel. Your distributor gear needs to match the cam material.
Crane makes a steel gear that works for both SADI and steel cores. Mallory
and MSD make gears specifically for SADI cores.

A specific intake recommendation depends upon whether you want carb heat, hood
clearance, etc. The way the engine responds to things like intake manifolds
changes when you go from 351 to 408 cubic inches so don't assume what works on
a stock stroke engine will work as well on a stroker. I can send the results
of dyno testing on a series of intakes if you are interested.

Machine labor costs vary as does the work your heads may need so I always
suggest you list all the costs involved and compare to what it would cost
to buy a set of aftermarket heads. Stay away from the Pro Comp aluminum
heads. They make less power than a set of unported iron 4V's. The CHI's
from Australia are good but unfortunately the exchange rates make them
(and AFD and Scott Cook's heads) more expensive these days. In the States,
Edelbrock and TFS heads make heads that are less expensive but both of those
options are 2V heads, not 4V. Of the two, the TFS flow better. If you go
with 4V heads, short side radius work, a bowl blend and good valve job are
the best bang-for-the-buck.

> Put frame connectors on your Mustang.

Go with the weld on variety of subframe connectors (Global West makes some
nice ones I used on my mom's '71 Mustang convertible). I also install a
Monte Carlo bar. Make sure the chassis brace under the engine is still
there, too.

Dan Jones

 
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(Login MMUBM5)
Member
99.194.201.19

351C stroker questions??

January 22 2012, 1:15 PM 

Thanks for the lesson. I have read many of your articles found on the internet. You are able to back up your knowlege with test results. No guessing that way. I wanted to stay with the 4V heads because I have them already and the high cost of the CHI and AFD heads. I figured I didn't need every ounce of HP for the street. I'm retired and on a budget. I don't want to spend money on certain items, then neglect other parts of the build. I did find a good deal on a set of new Trick Flow TFS-51610003-M62 Cleveland heads for $1400.00, complete. They are new, with a minor shipping nick that wouldn't affect anything, but looks. My heads are stock. They need new valves, guides, maybe seats, springs, retainers, some port clean up and they should have the pedestals removed/drilled. Some cost involved, but well under $1400.00. I would like to see around 475-500 HP with this motor, but stay around 6000-6500 RPM.

I wanted to go with a forged crank, just for the insurance, missed gears or unintended over rev. I was thinking about the compression ratio and E85 fuel. I live in Northern Illinois and E85 is easy to buy. It's at least a dollar less than other gasolines. A friend of mine runs a BBC in a rail on E85 and he runs in the low nine's. I thought it may be worth trying if the cam and intake system was set up correctly. What are you thoughts/opinions on E85? All modern cars that can run E85 are EFI. I don't know how well E85 would run with a carburated street engine.

I plan on running headers through a low restriction muffler. I have a set of Hookers, but I have seen other brands out there. Some are full stainless steel. That would be nice. The Hookers did fit well. My BBC buddy is trying to talk me out of the hydraulic roller cam in favor of a solid roller cam. He likes them for better performance. He does race and a street motor needs are different, but it's another thing to consider. I definitely plan on frame connectors (weld on) and the bracing bars up front.


 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

E85 is fine as long as your carb is set up for E85...

January 22 2012, 7:11 PM 

The benefit of running E85 is that you can run more static compression. However, if something happens and E85 prices go sky high, or it becomes hard to get, you're stuck with an engine that has a specialized carb and will then need race gas.

As far as solid roller cams go, they're fine as long as you understand the risks involved. They don't have the longevity that a hydraulic roller cam has. Expect about 7500-10000 miles before lifters need to be rebuilt (or at least carefully inspected) and if the cam has any butt at all, the valve springs will need replaced at certain intervals as well.

A hydraulic roller is about as maintenance free as it gets and you can reach your 6000-6500 rpm goals with one and the correct amount of spring pressure. I pull my Boss 9 engines with full link bar lifters and 2.300" intake valves to 6500, but I know which spring pressures to use.

Forged cranks are not necessary for street engines. If you miss a gear or over-rev, I would be more concerned about valve float, bending valves, etc, etc. A cast crank in a car with street tires will last indefinitely. I've even got 7.50 1/8th mile drag engines running cast cranks, launching at 6500 on slicks. Most certainly, if you have the budget, an extra couple hundred dollars there isn't going to hurt anything. H-beam rods are also not necessary and if you're trying to internally balance a forged crank with them, it only adds to the balance bill. Most of these Scat forged cranks that we internally balance use 3-4 sticks of heavy metal in each end. This is usually a $300-400 expense for heavy metal alone. There's no use in adding to the cost with heavy rotating assembly parts.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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(Premier Login blizzardND)
Forum Owner
166.250.98.69

Would Mallory Metal be a better investment than silver??

January 22 2012, 7:53 PM 

Link:

http://www.race-mart.com/Heavy-Mallory-Metal_c_8041.html

yike$ that $tuff is $pendy

question... how do you drill into the side of a crankshaft throw, or do you just drill sraight into the edges?

blizz


Happy New Year 2012!!..

 
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j DeRyke
(Login jderyke)
Member
64.13.35.31

Re: Would Mallory Metal be a better investment than silver??

January 23 2012, 12:11 AM 

You drill in horizontally with a looong slow-turning drill. To access the center crank throws, sometimes the crank ends or other areas need to be relieved for drill clearance. Drilling straight down in the crank the easy way sometimes causes the slugs to come out at high rpms from centrifugal force like cannon shells. There were injuries from this in the old days, even with welds holding them. Re cost: many Ford cranks have their rod throws relieved most of the way through as-stock. Someone recently posted on another Forum that grinding a Ford crank all the way through reduced the amount of Tungsten alloy (mallory-metal) for internal balance to only 2-3 slugs. Most balancers have mallory slugs in stock to match their available drills.

 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

To lighten, you can drill....

January 23 2012, 3:42 AM 

...in a normal direction (perpendicular to the line of axis of the crank) into the counterweight. To add metal, you drill parallel to the line of axis of the crank, insert the heavy metal, then press it in and weld it. If you add metal to the counterweight the way you would lighten a counterweight, then you'd find a chunk of metal on your garage floor when you fired it up. happy.gif

What's bad about the Cleveland cranks is that the counterweights are thin. That means instead of a larger chunk of metal (like we would use on a BBF or FE), then you have to use the shorter pieces....which takes more of them.



Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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(Login Falcon67)
Member
209.165.224.67

Balance metal / E-85

January 23 2012, 9:12 AM 

To neutral balance my last crank with Eagle rods and light Probes, we had to add 4 pieces of heavy metal at $40 a pop. The crank is junk, but I kept it until I can extract the metal - it can be reused!

I would be a little suspect about relying on E-85 since the $6 billion yearly federal subsidy for corn produced Ethanol died on Jan 1. The lost the .46/gallon production credit. There is a larger credit for non-corn Ethanol production but it's not wide spread. Also remember that it's availability will be regional. 180+ miles to any E-85 from here, YMMV LOL.

1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.

 
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