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351c engine build advice

February 14 2012 at 10:18 PM

Jim  (Login jbrad71)
Member
from IP address 72.190.55.46

Hi Guys,

I'm building my first Cleveland with the following parts. Do you see any red flags or have any recommendations/suggestions. Also, what spark plugs should I run and how much initial and total timing?

Hot Street "Beer getter"
1973 351c .030 over 2-bolt mains (ARP studs)
Speed Pro 2379F30 Forged flat top pistons (10.2CR)
Crane PowerMax H-278-2 Hyd camshaft 278/290 223/234@.050 .539/.534 lift 56deg overlap and 114LSA
Stock rods resized with new ARP bolts
Stock Crank turn 10/10
351c 4V Closed Chamber heads (D1AE) port clean up (ARP bolts)
351c 4V Exhaust manifolds (2-1/4" outlet dia.)& (Sanderson shorty headers when I get more $$$)
D0AE Cast-iron 4V intake manifold (Shelby intake when I get more $$$)
750DP Summit Racing
4-speed close ratio Toploader (2.32 1st, 1.69 2nd, 1.29 3rd, 1.00 4th, and 2.32 Rev.)
3.70:1 Posi
235/60/15 tires
70 Mach 1 (PS/PB)

Since I dont expect to rev the motor over 6200rpm I decided against any oil mods and to stick with the standard volume oil pump(M-84A)and stock 5qt oil pan.

Thanks.
Jim




    
This message has been edited by jbrad71 from IP address 72.190.55.46 on Feb 14, 2012 10:40 PM
This message has been edited by jbrad71 from IP address 72.190.55.46 on Feb 14, 2012 10:19 PM


 
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AuthorReply


(Login C_andy460)
Member
75.117.112.108

Engine build

February 14 2012, 10:29 PM 

I run Autolite 24's with a initial timing of 14-16* (with no vacuum advance) and a total of 32-34*. Use full manifold vacuum for the advance. Advance should be all in by 2800 rpm. Get full length headers over the shorty's.
Andy

 
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Jim
(Login jbrad71)
Member
72.190.55.46

Re: Engine build

February 15 2012, 8:41 PM 

Thanks Andy! I also still need to buy a dizzy. What does recurve a dizzy mean? I hear a lot of people on this forum talking about it.

Thanks.

 
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(Login C_andy460)
Member
98.23.91.148

Advance

February 15 2012, 9:53 PM 

When you recurve a distributor you change the springs for a faster or slower advance curve. If you have a big heavy truck that tows alot then you want a slower curve. In a race car you may lock out the timing so that it doesnt change at all.
Andy

 
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(Login blykins)
74.134.178.200

Recurving changes two things....

February 16 2012, 3:50 AM 

...how far the mechanical advance goes and how fast it gets there. Total timing is determined by your engine's wants and desires (it may like 32° total, or it may like 36°). The rest of the timing curve is determined by a number of variables, including the application, the weight of the vehicle, the compression ratio, the cam, the gas you run, etc.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC







 
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(Login jbrad71)
Member
72.190.55.46

Re: Recurving changes two things....

February 16 2012, 7:01 PM 

Andy/Brent, Thanks for the info.

I bought a set of 1971 Open Chamber CJ heads a few weeks ago. Would I see any performance or driveability advantages from using these heads over the Closed Chamber heads? The CC heads have been rebuilt and are already to bolt on (have screw in 7/16 studs too) and the OC are stock and will need rebuilt.

Thanks.

 
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tinman
(Login tinman351)
Moderators
69.246.218.44

open vs closed

February 17 2012, 11:16 AM 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1315299641/351C+cylinder+heads+-+squish+and+other+issues

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing

 
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(Login Falcon67)
Member
209.165.224.67

Good link

February 17 2012, 11:58 AM 

We all got in on that one LOL!

1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.

 
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Bob
(Login rentwist)
Member
146.15.96.20

Re: Engine build

February 21 2012, 8:38 AM 

Why full manifold vacuum? This would mean loss of vacuum advance at throttle opening and full advance at close throttle or cruise. I have always run and understood carb ported vacuum to be what the vacuum advance should be connected to. However, with my recent build and needing 12 or more initial I am unsure I should even try to run vacuum advance, just limit mechanical to around 34 total and no vacuum.

I would love to hear peoples philosophies though.

 
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Roo
(Login TwoTab)
Moderators
71.17.222.103

Full manifold vacuum to the can, was an old hot rod trick

February 21 2012, 10:49 AM 

back in the day, to get 18-20 degrees at idle with 38-40 total. The right way to do it, is to close the advance slots up to limit the centrifugal advance.

 
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(Login rentwist)
Member
146.15.96.20

Re: Full manifold vacuum to the can, was an old hot rod trick

February 21 2012, 12:09 PM 

gotcha, thanks!

 
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allenman
(Login allenman)
Member
91.103.37.150

More ideas

February 17 2012, 11:40 AM 

Very good start to your first engine. I did a similar build back in 86. Crane had an almost identical cam but they backed down the exhaust lift just a hair since then.

Intake manifold: don't waste your time on the cast iron. Just put a performer Edelbrock on it. Works much better with that cam

Ignition system: what are you running? I would go after a very hot spark system and a good distributor. MSD or Mallory. Initial timing and advance as stated from other suggestions is excellent starting point.

Weight: what kind of car is this?

Trans: why a close ratio?

Headers: ummm...do I need to say more? happy.gif

 
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(Login jbrad71)
Member
64.183.206.137

Re: More ideas

February 17 2012, 2:51 PM 

I haven't purchased any ignition parts yet. I was thinking about getting a ready-to-run dizzy. The car is a 1970 Mach 1. Weight is probably around 3400 lbs. I got a outstanding deal on the CR toploader. Would a wide ratio work better with my combo? Thanks. Jim

 
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allenman
(Login allenman)
Member
91.103.37.150

Re: More ideas

February 20 2012, 11:54 AM 

I would suggest a MSD Pro-Billet distributor then (looks are part of the reason). MSD or Mallory ign.

I would recommend the wide-ratio trans and eventually bring the gears back down to 3.50. The 3.70 is not too bad. I have run everything on the street from 3.0 to 4.11 and everything inbetween. 3.50 is about as much I like with a 1:1 final trans ratio.

The wide ratio will get the car moving faster and that engine combo makes a lot of good usable torque so a close ratio won't give the full advantage of the engine.

HTH

 
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(Login gpence)
A1
75.35.237.117

essentials

February 19 2012, 1:59 AM 

Why are you afraid to rev the motor beyond 6000 rpm?

New Romac harmonic damper 0203
Replace oem valves with Manley stainless valves 11800-8 and 11805-8
Bronze valve guides
Lunati 73815 valve springs or Isky 8005A valve springs
replace factory connecting rod nuts with ARP nuts 300-8371
Do yourself a favor, spring for a QFT carburetor
Need 3.89:1 gears and traction lock (posi is a GM term ... argh!)
Need traction bars
Buy the cam bearing restrictions ... they're cheap
Limit oil to the valve gear with the push rods
Whatever cam you select, have it heat treated and polished
Use that heat treated cam with Johnson HT-900 lifters
Since you're having the crank ground ...
(1)specify 0.0020 - 0.0025 main clearance
(2) specify 0.0025 - 0.0030 rod clearance
(3) have the journals polished after grinding
Have the reciprocating assembly dynamically balanced


Last recommendation:
Spring for the lifter bore bushings
Afterwards rev this motor to 7000 rpm
Its a 351 Cleveland ... not a SBC or SBF

-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!

 
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Jim
(Login jbrad71)
Member
72.190.55.46

Essentials?

February 19 2012, 2:20 PM 

One word "Budget"

Thanks for everyone's input...even if it didn't pertain to my particular 6200rpm engine.

Jim

 
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(Login gpence)
A1
75.38.26.219

Have a nice budget

February 19 2012, 4:12 PM 

why are you using ARP head studs & ARP main cap studs for a budget build?

They are not needed ... valves, rod nuts & a new damper are.

Or put the money aside for the dropped valve head, the rod nuts that let loose, or the 40 year old dampener that comes apart.

You gonna reuse the stock springs? They won't work with the cam you selected. Might as well buy good springs if you're gonna buy springs at all.

Why buy a carb that will need reworking after purchase, why not buy a good carb that will work out of the box? You won't save any money purchasing the Summit carb, or you'll live with a poorly carbureted motor.

You got money for ARP head & main bearing cap fasteners but not a couple packs of restrictors or 16 rod nuts?

Do you plan to install an aftermarket cam & springs but reuse the oem push rods? What if the new valve train parts require push rods of a different length? Did you ever consider those push rods might not be stiff enough for the non-oem springs? Do you know what happens when push rods flex? So if you gotta replace the push rods, why not buy push rods with restrictors in the tips?

3.89:1 gears don't cost any more than 3.70:1 gears ... the more gear you give a 4V motor the more you'll enjoy the motor.

Of course you can do without dynamic balancing or lifter bore bushings, but both things are worth the extra money you would spend on them.

enjoy your posi-traction and head studs ... have a nice day



-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!

 
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(Login jbrad71)
Member
72.190.55.46

I think I have the basics

February 19 2012, 9:42 PM 

George, I think I've taken care of the basics.

I had the heads rebuilt with new valves.

I had ARP bolts and nuts installed in the rods.

I bought a new Dorman balancer. It weights 10 lbs and is 1" wide.

I've asked the machine shop to square the deck and balance the rotating assembly.

I have a 750dp Summit racing carb right now installed on a 375hp 351w and it works great. It's basically an updated Autolite 4100 and good up to 450HP if not more. It's easy to tune and I may reuse it.

I'm not going to reuse the original push rods. I plan on using my Push rod length checker to calculate the correct length. Which ones do you recommend that don't cost over $200? Never mind, you already told me which one's in another post. I think you said buy an 8" stiffy. happy.gif What brand?

I already have the 3.70 posi-traction installed and working fine. I'm guessing I wouldn't see much change going to 3.89. Maybe I'd see 3800rpms when cruising at 70mph. I won't know if I need more gear until I get the engine in the car and out on the street. Also, I think FORD calls it Trac-Loc...Not traction lock. I could be wrong.

From my understanding and research from this forum dynamic balancing and oil modifications are not required for all new engine builds. This is where I can save some money and still have a good running engine.

George, you've posted tons of awesome information on this forum and that I'm very grateful. I used it along with your comments and others to make my final choices and decisions.

I'm wrapping up my build and I know it will be a good running stout engine and I want to thank everyone for their help. I'm sure I'll have more questions and I look forward to some great answers and conversations.

Excuse me while I get a beer. happy.gif

 
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(Login gpence)
A1
75.38.25.208

Have two beers ... one for me ... I'm there in spirit

February 19 2012, 10:33 PM 

Thank you, you've painted a much more thorough picture than your original post or your original reply to me, others more than myself will benefit from this info.

Ford calls its limited slip Traction Loc without the K, at least that's what they called it in the Jurassic Era.

Smith Brothers in Oregon are a good source for push rods.

5/16" OD with 0.120" wall is my recommendation. This will serve to limit oil flowing to the top, and resist bending as well.

I dunno about that carb, but if you like it, you have my best wishes for luck with it. I like the concept of that carb, the Autolite version was a good "small" carb, but Holley's execution had issues. I have absolutely no input regarding Summits execution.

On second thought ... make mine tequila



-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!

 
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70TooMach
(Login 70TooMach)
Member
99.139.79.112

Jurassic Era.

February 21 2012, 12:30 PM 

In the early perfomance Fords 1960-61 Galaxies, Ford called it Equa-Lock. Only later did the term Trac-Lcc become the descriptive term for their limited slip differentials.

The Older I get......The faster I WAS!

 
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(Login rentwist)
Member
146.15.96.20

Re: Jurassic Era.

February 24 2012, 12:00 PM 

To my knowledge, the Equa-lock and Traction-Loc were two different designs, the EL being the earlier (and less desirable/prone to breaking) of the two.

 
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Roo
(Login TwoTab)
Moderators
71.17.222.103

I think your right, Bob

February 24 2012, 10:22 PM 

Wasn't the change over in 1968? Traction lok was way stronger than the Equa lok.

 
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