Ok who has suffered Cleveland cylinder wall failure???August 14 2013 at 5:18 PM
|Stevek (Login steve.k)|
from IP address 126.96.36.199
While we have talked about nearly every aspect of this engine have we all encountered the cylinder walls splitting?TorinoPat has got my curiosity up now on cylinder failures.I will start with my own experience, I have not cracked any 351c blocks that had not been caused by something else. The first one was over rev kiss the valve and good by cylinder! That was block no.1! The next was base plate in carb screw let loose fell in to no.3 and jammed piston hard and boom cracked top to bottom. The next was 400 block bored .030 over was not sonic tested and was 408 cubes. Ran fine for two years then started dumping water in pan. No.8 was split on outside part of block. That engine dynoed at 551. The last 436 stroker ended up dumping coolant from a split deck which was caused from improper installation of liners. Jury is still out whether these liners were actually needed. It will be interesting to hear if you guys have had trouble in this area! If indeed you suffered a failure from poor cylinders or other failures caused the cylinder to give out. It is known that a hearty block such as bbf, Dart Windsor,fe blocks can suffer a failure at keep the cylinder intact. This in most cases doesn't happen usually with this motor. However I think we had a post on this earlier this week. Lets hear the stories boys! Did your sleeve let loose from something failing or from weakness! I have talked with Paul Jenkins and while he never said he busted cylinders I would imagine he has. But he did tell me his blocks were stock blocks filled and prepared by himself. He may have had xe blocks at one time but never mentioned it. Also if something else fails and takes cylinder can that really be classed as a weakness? In the snowmobile world it happens regularly ? Let me know!
Keep in mind the blocks are over 40 years old
|August 14 2013, 6:31 PM |
corrosion pitting/scaling on the cylinder surfaces in the water jacket can be significant. I'm quite surprised they hold up as well as they do to the abuse they get.
just from dropped valves
|August 14 2013, 8:44 PM |
only from a dropped valves have i ever cracked a cylinder wall.
a friend of mine also dropped a vavle took out his block
This is what I'm wondering!
|August 14 2013, 10:24 PM |
This is the sort of thing im starting to think. I was under the impression also that the cylinders were the weak link. However now that I've talked with a few x racers it seems not so. They were running tons of power through these but only when something let go you had a windowed cylinder. It's maybe this reason the c-motor was dubbed a poor block. When a 460 dropped a valve you had a chance of re-using block. I'm certain the other light weight fords have the same issue. Their was a fella on here from AU. That was running a blown 2200hp Cleveland. He said the weak link on his motors was the main saddles not the cylinders? That's pretty healthy numbers from stock style block.
Re: This is what I'm wondering!
|August 14 2013, 10:56 PM |
Ok, I was going to try to avoid this but here goes. I have lost clevelands both ways in the same motor. The valve dropped in my first cleveland that was a street motor but due to me being 17 years old saw frequent 6500 rpm blasts. When I tore it down to inspect the carnage I found that another cylinder had split, I assume it had been pretty recent because I hadn't noticed any excessive water usage. It's possible that when the motor locked up on the broken valve that it caused another cylinder to split? I suppose thats possible. I don't think you could count on any block surviving a valve being wedged into it at 3000 rpm.
Now for the part that I can't bring myself to ignore. This afternoon it was 800HP pro stock motors using production blocks, now its a supercharged 2200 hp monster! It must have been one of those blocks that was "prepped" by throwing it in the furnace and recasting it as a Man-o-war block. Maybe he cracked his main saddles on his first desktop dyno run , and never had a chance to split a cylinder wall.
What was it that Charlie Brown used to say, GOOD GRIEF!
Sorry it was only 1250 hp? And yes xe
|August 15 2013, 12:20 AM |
I'm not feeding you s***! This is what the whole thread is about. I'm sure Blizz can find the thread about the whizzy Aussie block. Just because you don't beleive doesn't mean didly. Bob Glidden may have been the best known racer but wasn't the only one. These guys had their own ideas and used them, who's to say they never worked? I just looked it up and I apologize on the Aussie block it was 1250 hp and it was a xe block. The login was Lyle671! I won't apologize for the p/s racer as that's the way it is! Bolt your Windsor together and be happy!
|This message has been edited by steve.k from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Aug 15, 2013 12:22 AM|
Re: Sorry it was only 1250 hp? And yes xe
|August 15 2013, 9:52 AM |
I don't think that YOU are BSing me or anyone else. I don't think you are lying, misleading, or doing anything other that relaying information that you have come by. I'm sure that this is the information that you were told and/or read somewhere. I'm sure that this was posted somehwere online and probably printed in a magazine somewhere. I am skeptical of any source of information that comes from the internet or out of a magazine. As for your Pro Stock source. I would love to see how he engineered around some of the clevelands inherant limitations.
Let me be clear, I'm not intending to be critical of you personally. This is not a personal attack
|August 14 2013, 10:24 PM |
Years back, sonic tested block(I believe this is inaccurate many times). Ran hot at the end of o run, checked the radiator, was low, oil was a little high and milky... oh crap, cracked block. #2 about 2" long, located at 2 O'clock looking from the front.
Vid clip latter onhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EWhFlYLgHo
"Meet my little friend... 351c"
|This message has been edited by machstang70 from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Aug 14, 2013 10:25 PM|
I hate cast pistons.......
|August 15 2013, 6:05 AM |
As I mentioned in the other thread I have had a few split Cleveland cylinder walls over the years. What I forgot to mention was the very first split cylinder I had was a cast piston combo in my very first Cleveland build (that is IIRC lol). And if I do actually remember correctly the split cylinder on that engine did have a busted piston skirt too (did I mention I really hate cast pistons lol). So I guess that is another possible cause for a split cylinder wall (Cleveland an others) from either piston rock after the skirt broke off, or the piston/skirt somehow getting wedged for a split second as it broke off.
my youtube page.
|August 15 2013, 7:50 AM |
So you are saying you have broke them from non grouted but not after being grouted! You also mention that the p/s racers did in fact use prepped stock blocks like the ones I mention Paul Jenkins used. It is interesting to note that the block was not the big issue. It was poor grade valve springs that lasted usually only about 4 rounds. It would seem to me if you have to grout both the Windsor and the Cleveland why not just use the Cleveland why not have the added Benifit of the high speed bearing journals and main journals ! Paul and I discussed block prep and like you say once done correctly you have a solid base. I was surprised when he mentioned this as I assumed most everyone furnaced brazed blocks. Paul mentions not everyone had lots of money so things were tight and they used what they could afford. Thanks Steve.
|This message has been edited by steve.k from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Aug 15, 2013 8:02 AM|
(Premier Login blizzardND)
we split 5 bores in the same block...
|August 15 2013, 8:30 AM |
after the first bore split, we sleeved it. when the second one split, we sleeved that one, because we has so much invested in the first sleeve, so it continued all season long, the engine ran like hell 'till the temp gauge jumped! we would bring it in and see bubbles in the rad.
The engine was a Highport plated closed chamber head, with the old TRW pop-ups in a circle track car, we turned it over 7000 just before going into 1 and 3 it was fun while it lasted, it would make about night and a half, we just never knew how long she had.
The engine is still in one piece, after being sold a couple of times. I'd like to buy her back some day, make a flower pot out of the block and run the rest in a drag car.
351C.net, Just say no to multi groove keepers..
Embeco machinist grout.......
|August 15 2013, 8:41 AM |
Yea, I never split a cylinder wall on a block filled with Embeco machinist (aka anchoring) grout. Originally years ago I when I wanted to try grout for the first time I didn't know where to get the stuff. But the guy doing my machine work at the time said to just get it from Reher & Morrison since they were just down the road. It was a lot cheaper than the other grout based products on the market (it was either HardBlok or Moroso I looked into at the time), and no worries about the Embeco stuff getting soft as engine heat increased like the Devcon epoxy/resin based stuff supposedly did.
I haven't purchased any in a while, but it should be a lot easier to find the Embeco 885 mix or their 636 mix these days. Hell if somone wanted the stuff & couldn't find it in their town I'm sure they could buy it online.
As for the furnace brazed blocks if blizz still has it posted somewhere on the Cleveland wiki page, there is a scanned article there on how the brazing procedure was done back in ancient times.
my youtube page.
mixing grout correctly......
|August 15 2013, 9:33 AM |
I will add that while Embeco is great stuff, it isn't 100% foolproof (and neither is any of the other similar grout based expanding fillers that are mixed with water). If mixed wrong you will have a mess on your hands. Mix it way too thick & it won't pour for crap, and it will be hard to make it flow around the cylinders fully/evenly/correctly.
Mix it way too thin & it won't setup correctly and will be weak with top layers that can break loose/flake off easily. This is because a super watery mix has less total aggregate/filler in the mix (replaced by the extra water volume). The top layers in a thin/super watery mix in effect become little more than just mud & water, with most of what little filler material there is in the mix settling to the bottom of the waterjacket reducing the strength of the top layers.
my youtube page.
Re: Thanks David!
|August 15 2013, 8:41 AM |
I have been racing Cleveland's since ford built the first ones. I have had problems with braking rod bolts and the rod going through the wall and I also broke a multi groove valve. Most of the engines were 11 second with no filler I have not had problems with split liners. One thing I did see was a my buddy split a 351 Windsor motor sport block in half. The liners had no problem but he had 2 four cylinders This after 50 10.50 passes! If your looking for a bullet proof block an off the shelf Windsor is not that strong!
Count me in for one of each
|August 15 2013, 8:34 AM |
One dead from a dropped valve. The other died from a used up thrust surface on the crank. That was a 480~500HP motor. When I took it down, 5 cylinders had splits. 10.5:1, no detonation problems, nothing special about the motor. Had a pretty easy life, maybe 250 runs the first year. It started pushing oil into the water after the first season, so some of those cracks opened up right away. That was a DO block. I did not check the walls, I just scrapped it.
The "best" ones were #2, #3 and #8
1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
Owner built, owner abused.
|This message has been edited by Falcon67 from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Aug 15, 2013 8:36 AM|
Ok here we go!
|August 15 2013, 9:41 AM |
This is the point I was trying to make. Falcon67 is a steady racer! You put more runs on a block than half of us together! I think like David says with proper prep the block will live a long time at lofty power levels. We have also new block choices once Tod and others get rolling. I just heard a local shop in Edmonton has MME blocks sitting on floor! If the p/s boys can run these blocks through the mill and back then us weekend warriors should be laughing!
My guess is that these cracks begin
|August 15 2013, 10:29 AM |
as fatigue cracks that start very small and eventually grow deeper and longer and eventually compromise the cylinder. Ultimate failure of the cylinder may be accompanied by some catastrophic "event" such as a dropped valve that might window the cylinder but in many cases the crack may just slowly reach a depth and length such that it opens up and you don't get a windowing of the cylinder. The primary loads on the cylinder are the cyclic hoop stress due to pressure variation in the firing cylinder and the cyclic thrust side load due to the piston skirt. There are also thermal and vibration related loads. It appears from the pics the failure is situated in the thrust side skirt area. The fatigue crack is not a single event in time but a manifestation of growth (reduction of area) over a long time due to high cyclic stress until failure occurs. The cylinder thickness is the primary factor that determines the stress level in the cylinder wall. Thinner cylinder, higher stress. The higher the stress level the more likely a fatigue crack may start and grow. Once it starts it's a death sentence in time if the cyclic stress/growth continues. The cylinder roughness and corrosion pitting in the water jacket can be contributing factors in the start of fatigue cracks. The age of these blocks is not helpful. Eventually they will all be scrap iron.
Add me to the cracked cylinder list
|August 15 2013, 10:39 AM |
351 c with .030 Trw L2348 pistons, approx 11 to 1 compression on pump gas.
About 3000 street miles and 100 to 150 1/8 mile drag races.
Never heard or saw signs of knock or detonation. Pistons came out like new
Re: My guess is that these cracks begin
|August 15 2013, 11:55 AM |
He has broken this down to the most basic fudamentals of Engineering. There are many factors in a dynamic system like an engine. But the most important thing to be gleened from what he just said is that when a given load is applied to an area, in this case the cylinder wall, the thinner the wall the more focused the forces become.
I will conceed that my knowledge of block fillers may be incomplete. There may be more advantage there than I give credit for.
Clevelands are, in MOST cases, too thin to begin with. Windsors are, in MOST cases, thicker than clevelands. Therefore my best bet, given the facts that I have, and within my budget, is to build a clevor. Virtually all the imput that I have seen thus far confirm that with my set of requirements, the best bet is a W block.
I have heard
|August 15 2013, 12:44 PM |
From a few different machinist that if you hone your cylinders instead of using the actual boring cutters, will actually strengten the cylinders. Example: my 4 bolt block is .032 already and my used trw flats wont work. He ordered .040 SRP flats for me. He sent my block to his buddys machine shop to be put on his boring machine but hes gonna hone 9 thousandths instead of using the boring cutters. Then he will fit hone the cylinders himself. He does this to every engine he builds. Hes owned and been building race engines for over 30 years and has never had one returned due to piston/ring problems or cracking cylinders.
Maybe something to look into. Maybe there's less vibration with using the honing technique or maybe because it takes longer on each hole,the honing tool heats up the cylinder more thus making it harder???