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Block Filler questions.

September 1 2013 at 3:55 PM
Pat  (Login torinopat)
Member
from IP address 68.238.77.231

Per my original post about building a Clevor. I want to make sure that I don't leave any stones unturned here. If I can Use a cleveland block and get what I need, It would be cheaper and easier for me to do so.

I need to keep this motor streetable. I want to be able to sell this car some day and streetable cars sell a lot better that race cars do.

How much can I fill the block and still circulate enough water to keep the motor cool, yet get the cyl support that I need. I understand that most heat is created in the heads. But I have also read posts on other forums that after filling blocks, people have had trouble with cooling. Any thoughts on this? I have a large 2 row aluminum radiator, and a Mazire electric pump now. No cooling issues with my current motor, even when "hot lapped"

I have also read that filled blocks will cause your oil temps to run hot. Will I need to run an oil cooler?

A lot of the info that was presented in my last post pertained to early pro stock work. Racing chassis, motor plates, etc. My chassis is basically a stock eliminator chassis. I use bolts factory motor mounts. Can anyone comment on how effective the filled block is when used in a mostly stock chassis?

 
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steve.k
(Login steve.k)
Member
209.91.107.201

The consensus is!

September 1 2013, 4:16 PM 

Most fill blocks to within 1" of deck . Some have filled to the half cylinder mark also. My last to blocks were 1", when we dynoed we seen high oil temps( 240 ish) but the Dyno guy figured in street or drag car they be lucky to hit 200 which would be livable. He suggested a finned oil pan would likely really keep it cool. My car is not plated and uses the factory mounts. I think you would be fine. Maybe install oil temp guage and see where your oil gets. I put a 557 ford together for buddy that's cemented in a mud truck. He says he has to heat cycle engine for half an hr to get oil temp above 160? He figured it would run through traffic without getting hot.

 
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joe
(Login methylated)
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184.5.234.211

If this is a street car I wouldn't fill it

September 1 2013, 5:22 PM 

It won't crack .

If the oil temp doesn't exceed 300 during the hardest running then don't use an oil cooler, dont add any foo foo frills that will make it more difficult for the pump to stay primed and feed the engine.hot oil is better than none , or a bunch of bubbly oil from lines running everywhere.

cylinder wall integrity is a concern for pure racing , you should worry more about bearing type , clearances ,and getting rid of the factory valves and rod bolts.

YOU WANTED THE BEST ?
WELL THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT !
SO HERE'S WHAT YOU GET !

 
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Pat
(Login torinopat)
Member
68.238.77.231

Let me clarify

September 2 2013, 2:02 AM 

It's not exactly a street car, but I do want to be able to sell it as such when the time comes. As stated in the other post. The car is a 68 falcon. Semi gutted interior, 8 point bar, caltracs, detroit locker, sfi axles, etc. 3140 lbs, 90% drag with an occasional trip to the local cruise in.

I'm beginning to see a 460 in my future.

 
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DAVID
(Login D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S.)
Member
108.208.41.182

future 460......

September 2 2013, 3:54 AM 

****I'm* beginning to see a 460 in my future****


460's with decent compression numbers and/or nitrous use often get grouted too. They are also a thin wall casting, with a tall unsupported cylinder wall height & a large bore diameter.





my youtube page.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DILLIGASDAVE/videos?view=0

[linked image]

 
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joe
(Login methylated)
Moderators
184.5.234.211

forget the 460 I think you need to build a billet top fuel block with removable sleeves

September 2 2013, 9:57 AM 

or a caterpillar deisel ...

Ford made 10's of millions of v8's with walls as thin as the cleveland and how many have you heard of cracking a wall without being caused by a dropped valve or really high output and high engine speed ? I can tell you that you have heard of EVERY cleveland cracking a wall by anyone who has the use of the WWW because they get off on posting that gory stuff ! The internet does not accurately reflect the experiences of the majority.

Do you think the other manufacturers would have used cylinders much thicker than Ford considering that nothing ever happens unless you drop a valve or hot rod one up over 1.5 hp per ci and then thrash it for a whole season ? nobody in detroit had a warranty that would cover those things so they didn't care , and less metal means more profit .

If it's drag only hardblock it because the extra weight will be paid for in terms of output .If it's a street car it's like swallowing a fly , then swallowing a spider to eat the fly , etc !

YOU WANTED THE BEST ?
WELL THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT !
SO HERE'S WHAT YOU GET !

 
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DAVID
(Login D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S.)
Member
108.208.41.182

water heat & oil heat.......

September 2 2013, 3:37 AM 

IIRC my almost full fills (aprox 1.25" to 1.5" down from deck surface) never really had a problem with overheating the cooling system side of the equation. This was especially true when using an electric waterpump/electric fan setup. After a pass It would cool down almost as fast as it would without grout.

And when I used a mechanically driven waterpump/fan setup I still didn't see any problematic cooling system overheating during a pass/runtime. But I have to admit with a mech WP setup the engine/grout/cooling system did hold onto the generated heat a lot longer after shutdown (vs a "no grout" combo) because of no moving water after shutdown to help cool the grout surfaces.

Grout will almost always increase engine oil temps/thin the oil a given amount since there is no circulating water in the bottom of the block/waterjacket to help carry away some of the heat from the hot splashed oil contact & oil pan mating surfaces. The increased oil temps aren't usually a problem on a race-only deal unless you end up with some scary low oil pressure numbers at idle on the return road after a pass. Thicker oil or more oil pressure (shim the pump spring, or stiffer spring) can be used help boost the hot oil/thin oil pressure numbers after a pass.

On a grouted street combo you could also as mentioned add an oil cooler to the mix to help cool the oil/boost the hot pressure numbers. But to be honest I really don't like the idea of using grout on a "true" street car (one that will actually see extensive "real" street/highway use). This is because both cooling system types (elec driven & mech driven) can sometimes have drawbacks when used with grout on the street (even with a low height grout fill). With a mechanically driven cooling system the grout will always cook the crap out of the head gaskets, heat-soaking them for a long period of time after shutdown, especially with the extra heat build-up of street driving. And I have never liked using an electrically driven cooling system on the street (with or without grout). They are great in a race car, but IMO just don't ever seem to really "keep up" with actual changing engine RPM vs water flow demands on the street.




my youtube page.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DILLIGASDAVE/videos?view=0

[linked image]

 
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russell
(Login russxr67)
Member
58.169.252.216

Filler on the street

September 2 2013, 3:53 AM 

I haven't seen any issues associated with using filler on the street. Wall integrity is greatly enhanced by using some form of filler IMHO.

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

This 393 was filled so the grout is level with the water pump outlets when levelled. Motor has gone 10.9 in a 3600 lb car and is driven on the street all the time. Runs a CSR pump and alloy radiator. Running a standard volume oil pump as well and the pressures look good.

 
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DAVID
(Login D.I.L.L.I.G.A.S.)
Member
108.208.41.182

aluminum heat sinks...

September 2 2013, 4:00 AM 

IMO the aluminum cylinder heads do help reduce/remove a bunch of heat from a grouted combo.




my youtube page.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DILLIGASDAVE/videos?view=0

[linked image]

 
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Travis
(Login hrspwrphantom)
Member
166.205.55.25

Sexy beast

September 2 2013, 4:21 AM 

I would like to know the build and I have to get that alt braket, and where to get it.

 
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russell
(Login russxr67)
Member
58.169.252.216

Bracket and build

September 2 2013, 5:11 AM 

Trav, the bracket is available from Bullet cylinder heads here in Australia.

Builds is pretty typical of most stroker combinations.

Scat crank, rods and probe slugs 11.5 comp runs on 98 octane which is equivalent of your 93
CHI 208 heads and manifold. Heads have had some texturing of the intake ports but remain unported.
Bullet solid roller. Cam is under 260@50 . I'm not gonna give exact specs
Isky ezx lifters
Trend pushrods
Rollmaster chain setup
Yella terra platinum rockers
750 holley
602 hp and 516 lbs of torque.
4200 converter , 3.9 gear ,10.94 quarter first time out.
Fwiw, I wouldn't use the Probes again. Seen too many of them crack . Mahle make a much nicer slug IMHO.

Sold the engine recently and about to do a 440 cube build using SCM race port heads.

 
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Steve.k
(Login steve.k)
Member
69.31.198.134

Pat that's mostly drag!

September 2 2013, 9:05 AM 

For the amount you will drive that on street grout it up and you won't need a cooler. Pat I doubt you see temps come above normal on the street for your limited driving. Going 80mph down highway in 100 degree weather may be different story.


    
This message has been edited by steve.k from IP address 209.91.107.131 on Sep 2, 2013 9:42 AM


 
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Pat
(Login torinopat)
Member
68.238.77.231

Re: Pat that's mostly drag!

September 2 2013, 1:35 PM 

The car hasn't been on a freeway in at least a decade. If it will run 10.90s a few times a year and get me across town to a cruise in or a case of beer then I will be happy.

 
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Steve.k
(Login steve.k)
Member
209.91.107.131

10.90s

September 2 2013, 2:36 PM 

Now that's a quick beer runner! I'd say your good to go. Get Tim to prep your block and your laughing! A touch over 500hp and you be hitting 10.90 all day.


    
This message has been edited by steve.k from IP address 209.91.107.131 on Sep 2, 2013 2:38 PM


 
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joe
(Login methylated)
Moderators
184.5.234.152

dont' make beer runs in a hot rod

September 2 2013, 4:35 PM 

I'm serious they're just looking for an excuse

where I live if your car is an antique you can drive it legally on the street without a county sticker or an inspection sticker , gotta have tags and insurance that's all. even so when I had my torino on the road the law gave me the dirtiest looks , followed me around , etc . they would try and say that you were only suppose to drive "recreationally" like parades and car shows I guess , but the law DOES NOT STATE THAT EXPLICITLY . and like Smokey Yunick I assume that if there are no rules against it IT IS LEGAL !



YOU WANTED THE BEST ?
WELL THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT !
SO HERE'S WHAT YOU GET !

 
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Pat
(Login torinopat)
Member
68.238.77.231

Re: dont' make beer runs in a hot rod

September 2 2013, 4:56 PM 

Never have problems with cops in my 71 Cobra. Hell, I havn't even put my tags on this year. Still no trouble. California is short on cash, not as many cops as there used to be. Lots of gang activity in this part of CA, I think they genuinely have more important stuff to do.

 
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Travis
(Login hrspwrphantom)
Member
99.5.69.206

Thanks Russell

September 3 2013, 6:15 AM 

Bullet cyl heads is now on my fav. list. What crank pulley are you using? It looks as if it's a sbf serp. I wonder how much it's going to cost me to get some of this stuff state side.

 
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russell
(Login russxr67)
Member
124.182.44.208

Bracket and pulley

September 3 2013, 7:21 AM 

Trav, you can utilise the SBF serpentine system . This particular engine has the larger pulley but my own engine uses the underdrive setup so the crank pulley is a little smaller.

A word of warning with those brackets though. You may need to modify them to get the alternator to sit in the right location. The MSD alt allows for some fore and aft movement but I still had to modify that one slightly to align the pulleys..

I will see if I can find a better pic for you.


    
This message has been edited by russxr67 from IP address 124.182.44.208 on Sep 3, 2013 7:21 AM


 
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russell
(Login russxr67)
Member
124.182.44.208

Bracket

September 3 2013, 7:26 AM 

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

 
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Travis
(Login hrspwrphantom)
Member
99.5.69.206

I could look at this porn all day!!

September 3 2013, 7:34 AM 

It's very clean, it appears you had to shim it like you said to make it work.

 
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