A message board for discussing all books (and printed sources) related to Royal Families all over the world.
"The Fall of Dynasties"
by Alberto
At present, when I have time, I am reading The Fall of the Dynasties by Edmund Taylor, published 1963. It gives the background, sketchily, of the
Habsburgs, Hohenzollerns, Romanovs and the Ottoman Empire. Then it moves on to the events of the war.
The author is very hard on the personalities of Nicholas 11 and the Kaiser.
The Tsar seems to have had his character restored compared to this opinion in the sixties. Reading about the events of 1905 and the pogroms, I am inclined to go with the author.
Have you this book in your collection Alberto or have you ever read it?
Jwgo
Hello Jwgo
have you enjoyed yourself in Turkey? Have you finnished reading the biography on princess Andrew of Greece?
I have the book "The Fall of the Dynasties" but I have not read it yet.....but some day!!!!
I had the impression even before buying it(I found it on a second-hand bookshop in my town!) the author would take sides and be hard with the Hohenzollerns and Romanovs(not that they didn't deserve critics!).
The Tsar, like the Kaiser, has his periods in which historians "revise" him, his personality and government. There are always two sides of the coin...
It's a pitty one doesn't meet many books availble on the Ottoman Imperial Family after the Republic in "The Door" (La Porte). I read a fantastic book on them but it was concerned mostly with 16th to 18th centuries.
Do you know any book on the subject?
Alberto
I had a wonderful time in Turkey Alberto! Although we visited Capadocia, Ankara was our base. The mausoleum of Kemal Ataturk is a marvellous piece of architecture and among his belongings displayed are silver framed photographs from King Gustav V1 Adolf, Queen Louise and Princess Ingrid. There is also one of Edward V111 and a gift of a gold cigarette lighter from him to Ataturk.
I had just been reading about the Swedish Royal Family in Alice of Greece. She was an admirable person, not perfect but very human. I had to keep on reading once I began the book, a very good read when waiting for delayed flights.
I don't know any books about the Ottoman Imperial family. The obvious books on historical subjects in Ankara appeared to be about the Harem. The Turks show great pride in their ancient past and great reverence of Ataturk but the Empire isn't mentioned, although it is probably different in Istanbul. The newspapers were defending their Country's right not to have to apologise for the Armenian massacres.
I think that the discovery of the Romanov remains and the more available attractive photographs of the family could have lead to a 'kinder' view of Tsar Nicholas 11 unlike the sixties when the results of the Revolution were very much overshadowing the west.
This means that when history is written it reflects the era it is written in as much as the era being written about. Do you agree?
I am continuing with 'The Fall of The Dynasties' as I want to get to the section about Kemal.
Jwgo
: I had just been reading about the Swedish
: Royal Family in Alice of Greece. She was
: an admirable person, not perfect but very
: human.
You can bet she was not perfect...don't you think her mother has the most interesting personality in all the biography?? Amazing her mother was so down to earth while her sisters and daughter....
: I don't know any books about the Ottoman
: Imperial family.
I will look for my copy of this excellent book I told you about.
: The obvious books on
: historical subjects in Ankara appeared to
: be about the Harem.
Once, ages ago, I saw a picture book on the Harem of Istanbul in England. Do you know what book I am talking about? I realy could not find this book anymore.
: I think that the discovery of the Romanov
: remains and the more available attractive
: photographs of the family could have lead
: to a 'kinder' view of Tsar Nicholas 11
: unlike the sixties when the results of the
: Revolution were very much overshadowing
: the west.
But in the 60s there were kind biographers of Nicholas and Alexandra. But it's true after the fall of the Berlin Wall communism lost much of its credibility in many countries.
: This means that when history is written it
: reflects the era it is written in as much
: as the era being written about. Do you
: agree?
Of course! If you read journals before 1939 by people who behaved so bravely during the II War you will be astonished at their anti-semitism, well today it would be considered anti-semitism or not-politicaly correct ideas. It's the same with the science of History...
: I am continuing with 'The Fall of The
: Dynasties' as I want to get to the section
: about Kemal.
Great. And although it is not a biography on him you could tell us later what was his behaviour like with the Imperial Family....
Alberto
You are right Alberto, Victoria of Hesse was a very strong woman, the outstanding example being when she received the news of the massacre at Ekaterinburg.
If we do receive our characteristics from our forebears through our genes then Alice inherited her nursing ability from her grandmother, Princess Alice, and her tendency towards mental illness from the Prince Consort and Queen victoria.
I have found two books about the Ottoman Empire at Amazon.com.
Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire by Lord Kinross
The Ottomans: Dissolving Images by Andrew Wheatcroft - this had four stars
I am now regretting not buying the Harem book. It was a glossy one, written for tourists but some nice paintings were reproduced in it. I am going to ask my daughter to buy it for me.
Jwgo
Posted on Jun 24, 2001, 4:15 AM from IP address 200.188.182.160
What was this book exactly about? Frederika's autobiography or a self-explanation of her character?
Jan
Jan
I read this book long time ago so I don't remenber very well. She does not talk too much aobut her past life, it's right, and she talks a lot about East beliefs. I remenber I could ot understand what she was talking about and I told so to a friend of mine and she told me what Queen Frederika was talking about was exactly the Hindu(I think so) phylosophy.
But Frederika adored talking about her life in Africa during the war, as well
Alberto
It is a great book, she talks about her whole life and family specially when she was the queen of Greece, there is another book the author is Mrs. Papanicolau. this one is not so good.
Claudia
Posted on Jun 18, 2001, 4:52 PM from IP address 200.188.181.99
Hello
In Greece last summer was with a Greek actor who had read "A Measure of Understanding" and said he remembers that Queen Frederika made a favorable comment in the book about my father-in-law, Douglas Blaufarb. He was a U.S. State Department official and in that capacity, befriended the royal family. Not being able to get the book myself, I would be a great help if you could e-mail me Frederika's comments on Mr. Blaufarb, if they exist.
It would be in the years 1951 to 1953, about.
Thank you,
Arthur Hughes
Posted on Mar 9, 2004, 9:51 PM from IP address 162.84.135.59
I have ordered a couple of books through www.antikvariat.net and everything went smoothly with quick delivery. Only a few days ago I read that this online co-operation has been a h-u-g-e success for the Danish secondhand book shops.
: I finally found Staffan Skott's book
: "Alla dessa Bernadotter" (1996)
: and have just ordered it.
- So now it will be all the more difficult for me to find a copy
Stig
This looks like a good place for buying secondhand books in Stockholm: http://www.aspingtons.se/
Great service by mail too!
Dag T. Hoelseth
Posted on Jun 18, 2001, 4:49 PM from IP address 200.188.181.99
Hello
I received the book "Fotobiografia de Juan Carlos I" by Javier Tusell, ISBN 84-08-03582-7
And I advise this book! Ít has plenty of pictures I have never seen of the Spanish Royal Family from 1938 till year 2000, and the author, a History professor, has a full coment on each picture.
Very interesting and illustrative
Alberto
Posted on Jun 18, 2001, 4:47 PM from IP address 200.188.181.99
Book on Royal Danish Jewels will be published soon. The author is Bjarne Steen Jensen
Monica
I was in the book store today and sadly the book be Bjarne Steen Jensen is delayed - it should have been on the market in mid May - but it doe snot come until September!
Glenn
Hello
the last issue of French magazine "Historia", which, as its name indicates, is consacrated to history, gives a review on the book/catalogue "Diamants. Au Couer de la Terre, au Coeur des Étoiles, au Coeur du Pouvoir" by Adam Biro.
This book/catalog was published to mark the exposition about diamonds which is taking place at the Musée National d'Histoire Naturelle, in Paris, until 15th July this year.
The author of the article (Eric Mension-Rigau) says it's a wonderful book and more than a simple catalog it's a reference book on diamonds with its geography(most important mines in the world), study(different kinds of diamonds) and history from India to Europe in the Middle Ages(the fist mention to a dimanod which belonged to a Monarch is to be found on the will of the Duc of Berry of 1423 who mentionned he had a dimanond he inherited from King Saint-Louis who died in 1270). Apparently the book/catalog is full of beautiful pictures, the magazine says so and the pice of the book means so...as it costs 390 FF (around 60 US Dollars) with 352 pages, while a book of this size normally wold cost 140 FF (around 20 US Dollars). The book talks a lot about diamonds and Royalty, the collection of Queen Marie de Médicis of france, Louis XIV, James I of England, Queen Victoria and the Romanovs.
On the exposition in Paris one can see the wonderful necklace presented by Napoleon to Empres Marie-Louise, among other pieces of jewerly
Alberto
ps: I understand the book/catalog can be purchased on on-line bookshops
Posted on Jun 18, 2001, 4:44 PM from IP address 200.188.181.99
Hello
maybe you remenber some weeks ago I started the translation of parts of the memoirs of the Countess of Barcelona doña Maria de Borbón, king don Juan Carlos' mother.
I post here again what I wrote and then, in other message, I will post what MJ, so kindly translated and typed:
"I never knew why I was named Maria de las Mercedes, if it was a hommage to Queen Mercedes, my grandmother’s sister, or a hommage to the Princess of Asturias. The truth I was always called Maria at home, and it was people from Catalunia, when Dad was general capitain in Barcelona, who started calling me Mercedes. Cristina and Genara were hommages to my godparents, the Queen Mother, doña Cristina of Austria and my uncle Don Genaro de Borbón-Dos Sicílias...Victoria because it ws the Saint of the day I was born and besides it was the name of the Queen. And de Todos los Santos because it is a tradition of ages ages in my family.
...De Castellana 3 I don’t remenber anything as I left that house when I was very small...the firt home I recall was in the Zurbao street. We used to go often to la Zarzuela (palace) to play and I remenber I returnned home and I saw Isabel and Alfonso on the baconies as the house was burnning...we spent then two weeks in the Royal Palace(Oriente). It was a terible cold and I will never forget it! (OBS: I paid my respects to coffin of doña Maria de las mercedes at the Royal Palace of Oriente and it was terribly cold that night....)
Our real home we got at the calle of Lista...
...When we still very small we spoke already in Spanish with Dad and French with Mum, when Dad was not at home. With my grand-parents Caserta we spoke Italian and spoke in English and German with the tutors. And we had to learn the gothic letters in German! But as I don’t practice German I have forgotten it but when I go to Germany after a while I remenbr it all.
Every Thursday and Sunday we used to go to the Royal Palace to see “Bana” (Queen doña Cristina) and the uncle and aunt and to play with the cousins...
Between 1915 and 1920 we used to go often to Zarzuela palace and that time it ws completly different from now, we met there the children of the King and the Bavarias, children of Infanta Maria Teresa and the princes of Orleans, children of don Alfonso, “uncle Ali”, who was first cousin of the King, and of Doña Beatriz de Sajonia-Coburgo..”aunt Bi”. In reality one should write “Bee” as in English, she was called this way by her sisters, Queen Maria fo Romania and Grand Duchess Kyril of Russia.
It was very amusing, divine...Sometimes the King arrived and he used to organize the militar instruction at once. If there were 4 or 5 of us children we were put to march, women included, of course. He used to sing the miltar march “Los Voluntarios”....
...Dolores, my sister, and I strted hiding horses when we were almost babies...but in a serious way we started when we were 5 and half years old...In Villamanrique we used to hide horses with my grandmother the Countess of Paris, who hode horses until she was 80 years old.......
...My daughter Pilar and my grand-daughters Elena and Simoneta have also the passion for horses. The truth is although the men of my family hide horses, horses for them are nothing more than a way of transport.
I have in my memory as if I were seeing something happeinning right now the death of my grand mother the Countess of Paris on the day of Saint George on 23th April. We were sent upstairs to kiss the hands of our mother, Queen doña Cristina’s, Queen doña Vitoria’s and all aunts. I kept kissing the hands of my aunts even when I ws Princess of Asturias, the salutation is not because of protocol, aunts remain aunts and it’s a mark of respect one owes to older people.
..Since we were small we used ot go to Villamanrique, which for us meant freedom........in reality as soon as we went to live in Sevilla Vilamanrique became our ideal, but this is another story.
In 1921 the King decided to send Dad to Sevilla as general captain. We became mad of hapinness, because we already thought of Vilamanrique and of that town where Mum had friends, where people were nice, kind and warm, of flowes, of Easter and the Feria. We arrived in Sevilla already in love with the town and Sevilla behaved itself with us as..Sevilla!
Isabel, Dolores and I started going to the school of the Irish nuns...and people smilled and cried: “Viva las Infantitas” Although we, except Alfonso and Isabel, were only princes of Borbons....
A few days ago I went ot the eyes hospital here in Madrid and when I was leaving with the doctor, nurses and a General of aviation I heard: “Viva la Infantita!” Immediately I told to people who were taking me: “Stop here, this only a person from Seville can say” And in effect there was a lady, already elderly and I asked her; “Where did you knowme?” and she answered “When you went to school by el callejon de padre Tarín” I said But it was so many years ago” “Yes, but I never forgot.....and some day Infantita Dolores nd Your Highness gave me a doll I keep with me to this day”. I was extremely moved.
`......When we got teenagers my mother decided to send us to France to improve our French. After all we were also Orleans! We went to spend 3 months and we spent in the end 3 years.....
In Paris we had many relatives. Those we met more often ws the family of uncle Pedro de Orleans-Braganza....who ws son princess IsabelHeir to the Brazilian Throne. He ws amrried to a Czech lady, very beautiful, Cuntess Elizabeth Dobrezesky aunt “Elsie” who was na artist. She played the piano very well and she painted wonderfully. They lived in a gorgeous house on the Bois de Boulogne and they had 5 children: Isabel, “Bebel”...”Chica” .....the poor woman died in 1968 and Teresa, “Teté”, with whom my poor brother Carlos was in love....
The 2 sons are Don Pedro,...a charming man and in the end he got maried to my sister Esperanza, they are the ones who own Villamanrique now. And small Dom João, who is worth a lot as well.....we met other cousins, in pat Orleans, ...but Polish, Czartorisky and Zamoyski.
The Czartorisky were extremely rich and they lived at Hotel Lambrt, a real palace....Voltaire lived thre...
One of the Czartorisky was husband of my sister Dola and the poor man died in Villamanrique in 1946....
.....one can find the Borbon 2 Siciles, Orleans, Zamoyski and Czartorisky in all possible combinations....
....in the years we spent in Paris we used to go to the Castle of Eu, which belonged to uncle Pedro....other cousins went there like the children of aunt Pia, sister of Dad, and the children of Dom Luis, brother of uncle Pedro.
In the castle there were huge cupboards with clothes of ancient times and we used to perform theatre pieces wearing these clothes....
But our life was in Sevilla, always Sevilla,. My Sevilla!!!....
During the Easter in Sevilla we used to go to every Church on Holy Thursday.....
....There we learnt to wear the mantilla what, as everything, has its art of wearing it.......”
Now I am posting the translation MJ did for us(thank you so much MJ!):
"I have known three Spanish Queens and have been very fond of all them.
Queen Cristina, Bama was known for being stuck-up, but with her family she
was loving and fun! And she did have charm. Her life had not been easy.
She became a widow at a very young age while being pregnant. Not knowing the
gender of the baby added tension., She did not what was going to happen if
the baby was girl and nor the consequences. While she was in labour and when
Alfonso XIII was born the Head of Government was in the room. An
unfortunate situation for any young lady.
She was good and generous person. During the Spanish-American War she
personally donated 1,000,000 pesetas. A fortune at that time! As her
godchild she would occasionally give me 50 or 100 pesetas.
A fun story while we were growing up: When we were young and living in
Madrid, were taken to el Batán to hunt lizards. These lizards ate baby
rabbits and partridge eggs. Queen Victoria Eugenia did not want to even
know about these escapades, so our cousins the Infantes were not allowed to
join us.Initially, Isabel, Carlos, Dolores and I would try to catch them while
they ran but they would always slip away. Finally we found a great way to hunt
them. We would take a stick and tie a rag at the end then stuff it in a
rabbit hole when we felt a tug we'd pull on the stick and inevitably there
would be a lizard at the end. There would always be two of us ready to
clobber the lizard on the head with a criquet club and into the sack it
would go. It was most exciting.
Afterwards we'd return to the Palace and sneak upstairs, unawares to Aunt
Ena, to Bama's room. There we would empty the sack on the floor and at
least one lizard, that had only been stunned, would run away scaring the
ladies of the court. This gave Bama a great laugh. She would ask us to
about our hunting methods then pay us 1 peseta per lizard and a tip!
She got on with Aunt Ena well although Ena, being English, did not
understand the meaning behind many things. For example, she would say "How
can you go to the bullfights?" Truthfully, at the time horses wore no
protection which was horrible and even though we all loved horses we also
loved bullfights. The strange thing was they seemed unreal.
As we grew older Mother decided we needed to improve our French, afterall we
were Orleans. So she would send us for 3 months, yearly during three years.
We attended the Asunción on Rue Lübeck, we lived in a pension"
Posted on Jun 18, 2001, 4:40 PM from IP address 200.188.181.99
I stopped by a second-hand book store in Thorvald Meyers gate, Oslo, on my way home on Thursday. I have seen this shop from the tram every day this winter and thought it was on time to check it out. Not too many serious biographies there, mostly novels and cartoons magazines, but I found the following:
Øksendal, Asbjørn: «Da Carl Frederiksen ble Norges konge. En roman om 1905», Oslo: C. Huitfeldt Forlag, 1995. 146 p. («When Carl Frederiksen became King of Norway. A novel about 1905»).
«H7. Vår folkekonge», Oslo: Tiden Norsk Forlag, Oslo, 1945. («H7. Our people’s King»)
24 pages, some short articles on King Haakon, many photos. A kind of a welcome special edition before King Haakon VII’s return from exile in June 1945. The publisher Tiden Norsk Forlag was then owned (still owned?) by the labour movement, so many of the articles and photos focus on the King together with workers. Where was the republicanism of 1905 gone?
I also bought Gyldendal’s magazine Bilder, No. 3, March 1946, which at the time cost NOK 0,75 (and I paid NOK 35). It contains photos from Prince Harald’s school Smestad in Oslo, lots of photos of the prince and his schoolmates. On page 12 and 13 6 photos of a real snowball fight in the school yard! And further in the magazine a 6 pages long article on Princess Elisabeth (the current Queen of the United Kingdom), with speculations on possible candidates for marriage... Germans were ruled out, in the article it was maintained that a British citizen would be a popular choice, and the young Duke of Crafton was mentioned, besides Viscount Althorp, further the Duke of Northumberland’s two sons Richard Percy (then 23) and Geoffrey Percy (then 19). Prince Charles of Belgium was also mentioned (that he was a Catholic and therefore out of the question was not touched on), but it was added that because of the problems within the Belgian royal family, it might not be the best alliance. Prince Philip of Greece was mentioned as well as Prince Georg of Denmark.
In the magazine I also found interesting photos of the royal family’s cottage at Sikkilsdalen and the bullet holes made by the Germans during their attack in 1940 (believing that English soldiers was hidden there). The cottage was occupied by the German Wehrmacht, later transferred to the Norwegian Ministry of Internal affairs (together with the royal family’s private property).
Dag T. Hoelseth
Hello Dag
thank you for the information on your last report on your adventures in second-hand bookshops in Norway! I advised a friend who plans to to got the Royal Wedding in august to explore these stores.
I have a question for you: I read once in a biography on king James VI of Scotland(later James I of England), I will have to look for its title and author later, that king James got married to princess Anne of Danmark in Stavanger, Norway. Why Stavanger and not in Danmark or in Christania? (Stavanger is around 600 kms, 360 miles from Christiania, Oslo) And do you know if there's a book or an article published on this wedding in Stavanger? It seems there was a fire who burnt dancers who were in fancy dress, or something like this.
Thank you
Alberto
DTH: I am sure there are many articles about the wedding - I would have to make a search. However, your biography is incorrect. The wedding took place in Christiania, Norway.
Dag T. Hoelseth
DTH: Small correction: The wedding took place in Oslo (which still existed) in 1589, not in Christiania (which came later, after the fire 1624).
Thank you Dag
ou are absolutely right. I misinterpreted the biography in an awful way! Maybe I had Stavanger in my mind when I read it. It's "King James" by Antonia Fraser, ISBN 0-394-49476-8.
On page 52, Fraser says:
"When James arrived in Oslo, he found a typical Scandinavian beauty......The wedding ceremony, performed then and there, was marred by mishap: the four Negroes, commissioned by James to dance artistically in the snow, all subsequently perished of pneumonia"
She goes on to say the couple spent winter in Anne's native Denmark.
No mention of Stavanger, nor any fire at all...(nor Christiania)
Alberto
Posted on May 28, 2001, 4:51 AM from IP address 200.188.180.47
I dropped by Damm's Antikvariat on Saturday 31 March 2001 and came out with the following:
Eidem, Paul Lorck (Red.). «Til Minne om Kronprinsesse Märtha», Nå, no. 9, 1954 («In Memory of Crown Princess Märtha»). 24 p. Special edition by the weekly magazine Nå («Now») in connection with Crown Princess Märtha’s death and funeral 1954.
Halling, Sigurd (Red.). «Olav. Norges Kronprins. Festskrift i anledning av H.K.H. Kronprins Olavs bryllup i Oslo XXI Mars MCMXXIX», Oslo: AS Helge Erichsens Forlag, 1929. 39 p., single section with photos (40 p.). («Olav. Crown Prince of Norway. Memorial publication in connection with Crown Prince Olav’s wedding in Oslo 21 March 1929»).
Comments: Sigurd Halling was Crown Prince Olav’s teacher. A wonderful book - I have never come across it before. Lots of details about Crown Prince Olav’s life - his schooldays, military career, studies in Oxford.
[ ]. «Kronprins Olav - Kronprinsesse Märtha. Et album til minne om bryllupsfestlighetene i Oslo Mars 1929», Oslo: N.W. Damm & Søn, 1929. 67 p. («Crown Prince Olav - Crown Princess Märtha. An Album in memory of the wedding celebrations in Oslo March 1929». The editior/author is unknown. Large format.
[ ]. [Hos] «Prinsessene på Skaugum, Ragnhild og Astrid», Oslo. Abels Kunstforlag, 1932. 47 p. («[By] The Princesses at Skaugum, Ragnhild and Astrid»). Many of the photos were taken by Queen Maud and Crown Prince Märtha. Editor/author unknown.
Comments: Funny book. It tells about the baptism of Astrid and lists the godparents of the princess, among them «Hertuginne Elizabeth av Danmark»! Of course it means the Duchess of York, the present Queen Mother. Strange mistake!
S. «Det nye Norge, Kristiania: L.E. Tvedtes Forlag, 1905 («The new Norway»). 16 p. Dated Kristiania, 10th of November 1905. With a welcome poem to the royal couple by Rosenkrantz Johnsen. Name of the author unknown, only starts with a capital S.
Comments: Photos of the new royal family. Mind you that tha article was written before the referendum on 12th and 13th of November! Obviously the author knew where the wind was blowing.
[ ]. «Skaugum. Norges kronprinsfamilies bolig», Oslo: Abel Kunstforlag, 1932. 51 s. Kjøpt på Damms Antikvariat, Oslo, lørdag den 31. mars 2001 («Skaugum. The estate of Norway’s Crown Prince family»). Photos of the old and the new Skaugum. Text in English and German. Editor/author unknown.
Dag
Posted on Jul 2, 2001, 4:51 AM from IP address 200.188.180.78
This is not strictly an autobiography but rather a collection of memoirs and images from certain periods in the life of Lee Radziwill, especially younger years, the Kennedy years, and her times in England. Lucky for me I picked it up in Barnes & Noble and just read it over a cup of coffee there, because unless you're an avid collector of Kennedy memorabilia (there are nice pictures not published elsewhere of the presidential family at Christmas in Palm Beach), it's hardly worth the purchase price. Sometimes a book that claims to be a memoir is almost more interesting by what it omits than what is actually says, and I found this to be just such a book. Radziwill says nothing or almost nothing about such incident's as the presidential assassination, her sister's death, her own reputed affair with Aristotle Onassis, or her own son's more recent death. Admittedly, these are mostly painful occasions, but when one decides to write a memoir, the reader does have expectations. I can't help but wonder about the underlying motives of such a book: is it a form of belated apology to her sister, whom she was not very grateful to during her life, but speaks of lavishly in this book? Is it a form of self-rehabilitation for the poor image Radziwill accumulated herself, not just from her relationship with her sister but through other fairly well known incidents (see the bio on her, which recounts the hilarious incident at the London theater when she refused to move from her seat to make way for Charles and Diana)? Lee Radziwill has always seemed not a serious person as far as being committed to anything--one minute the theater, the next designing, the next acting. Nothing lasts. Again, one could feel empathy for her in the people she has lost, but those are the exact things she chooses not to share: party picures with Truman Capote or Andy Warhol just don't convey much of anything real or human to me. Although Alberto may enjoy the pictures of her with Agnellis and Brandolinis! One final thing I found strange: Radziwill twice refers to her daughter Christina's christening as taking place at Westminster Abbey (once in a photo caption, and again in the text) when this was absolutely not the case. Both Radziwills and Bouviers are of course Catholic, and this christening was held in June 1960 at Westminster Cathedral, London and not Westminster Abbey. The Cathedral is the foremost Catholic church on British soil. I know for a fact about this error just because although I was too young at the time to remember it, my family lived next door to Westminster Cathedral. According to my mother, one day when we were coming home in a taxi, the entire street was blocked off by crowds and police. My parents and I had to get out and walk the rest of the way through the crowds to the block of flats where we lived on Morpeth Terrace, SW1. When we got into our lobby, the porter said to my mother: "Your president's here to stand godfather for his new niece at the Cathedral." Indeed it was JFK who had been across the street! I don't know how this error occurred in the book, perhaps Lee Radziwill's Anglophilia has overtaken telling the truth about a simple thing like the fact of where your child was baptised? Who knows.
Julian
Oh Julian
by a great coincidence I watched the second half of "Larry King's Live" on CNN(oh, this "Casino on Net" publicity is driving me me mad!) last week with princess Lee Radziwill. She looked a bit frail, not in age, but she was quite vunerable.
: Radziwill says
: nothing or almost nothing about such
: incident's
It was the same thing during the interview to TV....
: her own
: reputed affair with Aristotle Onassis,
I beg your pardon????
: or
: her own son's more recent death.
Larry King showed he knew nothing and in the end of the interview he asked her if she had children...then she answered she had a daughter, she looked really moved.
But quite ODD she does not mention her son's death on the book!!
: Admittedly, these are mostly painful
: occasions, but when one decides to write a
: memoir, the reader does have expectations.
How many princesses(or any mothers) wrote memoirs and talked about their deceased children? In my opinion it's not a question of the readers' expectations but it's a notorious part of their lives. And if it's painful one respects but then she didn't need to write the memoir...
: I can't help but wonder about the
: underlying motives of such a book: is it a
: form of belated apology to her sister,
In the interview she talked almost only about her sister. A bit shocking seeing Larry King showing his sympathies for her deceased sister and no mention AT ALL about her son....
: Is it a form of self-rehabilitation
Naturally.
: (see the bio on her,
Do you mean a bio on Lee Radziwill???
: which recounts the hilarious incident at
: the London theater when she refused to
: move from her seat to make way for Charles
: and Diana)?
How interesting, could you tell us more?
: Lee Radziwill has always
: seemed not a serious person as far as
: being committed to anything--one minute
: the theater, the next designing, the next
: acting.
She has been described as "socialite" even before her brotehr-in-law became president.
: Truman Capote or Andy Warhol just don't
I think Truman Capote mentions her name in one of his books?
: me. Although Alberto may enjoy the
: pictures of her with Agnellis and
: Brandolinis!
It must be very interesting, indeed!
One final thing I found
: strange: Radziwill twice refers to her
: daughter Christina's christening as taking
: place at Westminster Abbey (once in a
: photo caption, and again in the text)
Oh, it's not such an important point. As some "socialites" she cares about appearences and Westminter Abbey is more beautiful than Westminter Cathedral, smarter...
And one would not look for this book for accurate details, of course, as you said it's a self-rehabilitation book.
: the time to remember it, my family lived
: next door to Westminster Cathedral.
A nice but terribly windy area.
: Cathedral." Indeed it was JFK who
: had been across the street!
Well, now we all know your minimun age, Julian.....
Alberto
Alberto - there's a bio out on Lee Radziwill, I will post the bibliography another time because I can't get into my library directory right now (they're online but sometimes...down!) Indeed it recounts the rather shocking behaviour of Lee at a London theatre gala when she took a front row seat that was not hers to have, causing chaos in the seating arrangements for the guests of honour that night, TRH's of Wales. Since she absolutely refused to move, it was the star of the evening's film (I think it was Demi Moore) was forced out of her front row seating altogether and fled the theatre in tears.
Sorry I missed the Larry King interview, to be fair perhaps she didn't want to discuss Anthony because it must be a heartbreaking loss for any mother. But as to the area of Westminster Cathedral, Victoria and Belgravia are not particularly windy, you must have been there on a bad day (frequent!) If you want to see real winds, stand by the Chelsea embankment or up on the hill at Hampstead sometime!
Julian
Posted on May 28, 2001, 4:48 AM from IP address 200.188.180.47
My Memoirs - Princess Caroline Murat (25 to 26th May)
by
What's the word on this book?
Jan
Is this a new book?
There is a person calling herself pss caroline Murat - she is not, however, a princess
Marlene
Well, PdV certainly seems to think so, they've called her that in some of their photo coverage, and isn't she entitled under French law since her father has legitimated her?
Julian
PDV gets a lot wrong these days ... Caroline's father recognized her, and she is allowed to have the Murat name, but she is not a member of the Murat family. She was born out of wedlock. Her parents never married. Her daughter, Deborah, is also illegitimate. Caroline also refers to herself as HRH - and the Murats were never HRH!
Marlene
Marlene - never is a long time! Actually, they were HRH for a brief period during the reign of Joachim Murat in Naples-Two Sicilies. They only officially became simply HH after NIII recreated them as princes of the French Empire. On another note, what do you think about Deborah's engagement to the Orleans prince, is it over? He's been seen with someone else and I can't help but suspect it's because they (the Orleans) dislike the fuss that Caroline created in the media about her parentage with that lawsuit she threatened against the author who mentioned it somewhere. I feel sure they must have disliked that. She should have let sleeping dogs lie, it would have been a great alliance for the Murats
Julian
I didn't know about the HRH -- that is new information for me. There was no official announcement of an engagement between deborah and Charles Philippe (now seeing Crown Princess mathilde's sister, Elisabeth.
I don't think that the head of the Murat family thinks too kindly of Caroline.
The author is jean fred Tourtchine who researched Caroline's details for one of his books
Marlene
Posted on May 28, 2001, 4:41 AM from IP address 200.188.180.47
Romanof and Orleans-Bragança thread (new and old Gotha) posted from 23 to 24 April
by
Earlier I have posted the same question on the Franco-Iberian MB, but nobody anwered it. So could somebody please answer it here??????
The Almanach the Gotha says that the brother of the duchess of Paris, Dom Pedro is the head of the Brazilian Imperial family. But another book I have is saying that Prince Luiz-Gastao, the son of Pss Maria of Bavaria, is the head of the family. So I want to know which book is right
(If the AdG is not right I will throw it on the fire, like Marlene suggested. I don t like it either that they are saying that Nikolei Romanov is the head of the russian imperial family instead of Grand Duchess Maria .)
Helena
"Nikolai Romanov is the head of the Russian imperial family instead of Grand Duchess Maria"
Helena
GD Maria gave an interview to "Hola" soon after the first Gotha was (re)published in 98 and she said the "boss" of the Gotha, mr. Kennedy maybe?, went to Madrid only to talk to her and apologise and in the next Gotha they would put GD Maria as the Head of the Imperial Fmaily(or pretender?) anyway, they(he) promised a thing he didn't acomplish!
Alberto
I have the 1998 edition, so maybe they have set things right in the 2000 edition. But I really think it is a shame that they have said that Nikolai R. was the head of the royal house. A really stupid mistake. Even I know that that could not be true.
Helena
JK made a decision not based on the fundamental laws in naming Nicholas as head of the family. He is unlikely to change it
Marlene
Grand Duchess Maria is the head of the family. Nicholas Romanov is the issue of a morganatic marriage. John Kennedy decided to name Nicholas as the head of the family, although the real Gotha which ceased publication in 1944 recognized Wladimir as head of the family(and Kirill before his death.)
The current Gotha also believes that Karl Emich zu Leiningen is the present Prince of Leiningen. But he lost his rights (and his inheritance) when he married his second wife.
As for the Brazilian succession, it can be described as disputed. I am sure Alberto can discuss it better than I. Isabella II had two sons, Pedro and Luis. The elder son married a Countess, who was not of royal blood. Pedro renounced his rights and the rights of his descendants in 1908. (Pedro's daughter, Isabelle, married the count of Paris). Luis married Maria Pia of Bourbon Two Sicilies, and their eldest son Pedro Henrique married Princess Maria Pia of Bavaria. Pedro Henrique is the head of the Royal Family. Alberto will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the family fortune ended up with the morganatic branch - and not with Pedro Henrique's family. The eldest son, Luiz, is the heir - he is not married. The second son, Eudes, is married morganatically. The third son, Bertrand, is also not married. The fourth son, Pedro, has made a morganatic marriage, as has the 5th son, Fernando. The 6th son, Antonio, is married to Princess Christine of Ligne, a niece of the former Grand Duke of Luxembourg.
Grand Duchess Maria is the head of the family. Nicholas Romanov is the issue of a morganatic marriage. John Kennedy decided to name Nicholas as the head of the family, although the real Gotha which ceased publication in 1944 recognized Wladimir as head of the family(and Kirill before his death.)
Marlene
Throw it on the fire.....
I am joking....but the RIGHTFUL PRETENDER to the Brazilian Throne is dom Luiz. "The Gotha" says dom Pedro is its sponsor, so it might explain part of the things.
Dom Pedro's father resigned his rights in 1908 and I've got a photocopy of his renunciation. Dom Pedro says his father's renunciation needed the aprove of Brazilian Parliament thouhg what did not happen. But dom Pedro forgets to say before his father died in 1940 he himself, dom Pedro, recognized the father of dom Luiz as the rightful pretender. But presently dom Pedro has not insited in this point. Apparently dom Pedro is satisfied to be the "head" of the family in the meanning he is elder son of the elder son of Regent princess dona Isabel, in this sense he is indeed the Head of the family and the Gotha is NOT wrong! Can you see the difference? For instance, don Luis Alfonso de Borbon is the Head of the Borbon(Bourbon) family but king Juan Carlos is the King of Spain.
Dom Pedro has been satisified over the last few years with this arrangement: he is tolerated by dom Luiz as the Head of the Imperial Family and dom Pedro does not say anymore he is the rightful "Emperor de Jure".
The fact is there were LOTS of money involved. And dom Pedro is extremely rich and dom Luiz's father was not rich at all (dom Luiz is well off now because of the conservative organization, who supports him, provides everything for him, incluidng many servants, cars, bodyguards, secretaries, etc)
All foreign royal families recognize dom Luiz as the rightful pretender with the exception of the Spanish royal family, as dom Pedro's wife is dona Esperanza who is aunt to king Juan Carlos. And the English royal family is "undecided", the Queen visited dom Pedro while she was in Brazil and again while she was in Seville, but her mother visited dona Maria Pia(aunt of dom Luiz) and the Duke of Edinburgh visited dom Luiz. After Silvia Sommerlath the king of Sweden has visited dom Pedro many times. The Russians, GD Maria and the Bulgarians, king Simeon, as they live in Madrid have apparently recognized dom Pedro(GD Maria's father really declared dom Pedro was the rightful pretender). But in 1908 all Courts were informed of the rennunciation.
Queen Beatrix recognizes dom Luiz, I know for sure as during the referendum campaign in early 1990s she was "secretly" supportive of dom Luiz(maybe out of loyalty to dona Christine whose mother is a Bourbon-Nassau) but she visited dom Pedro in 95 in Seville(but ALL royalty visited dom Pedro in 95 as his wife gave a huge party in her palace in Villamanrique the day before the wedding of infanta Elena). Of course the prince Alexander of Yougoslavia says he recognizes his ex-father-in-law as the rightful pretender.
It's a pitty as dom Pedro is really VERY charming! While dom Luiz, well..., although I recognize him as my Emperor, he lives in the Middle Ages...during the referendum campaign, in which I took an acitve participation(until january 93), dom Luiz said to TV he was virgin and proud of it...and he removed all generals, militars, and people who did not share his extremist conservative views from charges, he destroyed the campaign, together with his brother dom Bertrand.
It's a touchy point for me...sorry but I get too moved and it's not an easay subject to talk about in "public" as the conservative organization may pose personal problems, so understand people do not talk about it.
Alberto
Thank you very much for your large and interesting message !!! I did not know that they all lived in Brazil. And I did not know that there was a referendum just a few years ago!! (what was the outcome in % ?)
Maybe the dynasty would be better of when Luiz and his brother Bertrand went to the convent, and that their brother Antonio would set things straight. (Does he live in Belgium????)
Is there a large mionarchist movement in Brazil? (because they can pay bodyguards etc) And are you a member? And why does Luiz need bodyguards??
Helena
I believe that question got just under 10% of the vote"
officially 12%, 8 million votes out of 66 miillion electors who went to vote. But around 5 million votes were annuleted because the electors choose Monarchy without Prime-Minister. The governement had distributed millions and millions of brochures stating all the otpions and int eh brochure we could read Monarchy without Prime-Minister was a fair option, but after the referendum they simply said it was not valid anymore....
Alberto
Posted on May 28, 2001, 4:33 AM from IP address 200.188.180.47
Emperor Hiroito (messages posted on RB MB already)
by
Today on CSPAN2 author Herbert Bix spoke about his book "Hirohito And The Making of Modern Japan", which has been awarded the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for general non fiction. I only caught the last 20 minutes when he was taking questions from the audience. Here are a few points he made:
1. He found researching Hirohito difficult. Hirohito in his words "left no paper trail" to speak of. Bix had to rely on memoirs and diaries of high ranking Japanese officials of the Hirohito era, which he found difficult going because such works aren't objective.
He said he ended up theorizing a lot as to why Hirohito did/didn't do something. He said a "veil has been placed over Hirohito's words & actions", making it hard to find the real man.
2. He said he believed Hirohito should have been deposed or forced to abdicate after the surrender in 1945, but the monarchy itself be left in place. Indeed he stated Hirohito's brothers fully expected one or the other action to take place. 3. Bix felt that based on circumstantial evidence Hirohito should have been aware of the atrocities committed by the Japanese army, especially in China (specifically Nanking).
I don't know if the book itself is any good, just thought I would share this with you
Betsy
I am reading it now and it is excellent. Hirohito is at the point of succeeding his father.
Any serious royalty scholar or anyone who truly appreciates a good biography will enjoy the book. From the start, you know that Bix holds the Emperor totally accountable as the leader of an aggressor nation, yet his treatment of Hirohito as a biographical subject seems fair and objective.
A delicately built high-pitched voiced scholar who grew up under a weakling father and a monarchy suffering a dangerous decline in prestige, Hirohito was being groomed by the military clique who oversaw his education to be a great ruler like his grandfather, the overly-idolized Emperor Meiji. They had big plans for Hirohito, while at the same time meticulously laying the groundwork for the establishment of Japan as a world-class economic and military power.
Steven
Posted on May 28, 2001, 4:23 AM from IP address 200.188.180.47