(Login rlearp) Forum Owner from IP address 24.25.2.137
Mike and I have been discussing engines via email and it would be interesting to see what people are using or planning to use in their GT40 build. So, what do you have?
This message has been edited by rlearp from IP address 24.25.2.137 on Jun 21, 2001 5:57 PM
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I really don't think wheelies will be a problem. I think you will spin the rear tires first. I have built a 347 stroker out of a 5.0 with an 8 barrel fuel injection system,ported Holley heads and Motec computer.
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I was using and the new owner of my car will be using a 289 block modified to 347 stroker. Although webber fuel injection as the originals was my first choice I was talked out of it by UK GT40 owners when I was trying to purchase a set over there. Many members were changing over to a single 4 barrel carburetor. Quoting them they said, "You have a fine hunk of American Iron and it works best when it is sucking in a lot of gas."
Also I believe they wanted to spend more time driving their cars instead of tuning the carbs every time out.
Paul Campoli
Toronto, Ontario
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i'm using a 351W bored and stroked to 408 CI with 10 to 1 compression. for fuel delivery i have a set of TWM 48 IDA throttle bodies with the rails on the inside and 36 lbs injectors(this is not a definite injector size yet). i'm still debating which computer should i use but i'll leave that for last.
luis
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Wow, I guess this makes it a MK II version. Although I have never seen one in a replica, I hear it's tight. According to ERA don't even think about air conditioning. I know some people that have put a cleveland in their KVA and that was a tight fit requiring a lot of chassis modifications. It sounds like though you would at the very least need a ZF transaxle which is good fot about $8,000 to $10,000 right there.
Paul Campoli
Toronto, Canada
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Wow, I guess this makes it a MK II. I know of a couple of people that used a 351 cleveland in a KVA and that was a tight fit requiring significant chassis modifications. According to ERA who makes a big block 427 replica, the fit is so tight that you can't even consider air conditioning. In any event I'm sure it will require a ZF transaxle to handle the power and that's about $8 to $10 thousand right there. Since the driveshafts will have to remain relatively in the same place, I guess the added engine size will need to creep into the cockpit.
Paul Campoli
Toronto, Canada
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A 351 stroked out to a 427 will fit well. No problems since the dress is the same at the 302 and the dimensions are similar. Just a little bit taller and the heads are spaced a little further apart.
A clevland might be difficult since the mounts would be different and the dimensions are slightly larger.
The big block would be really hard I think.
Ron
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a local GT40 freak here is putting that 427W stroker kit in his integrity. it also has 48 IDA's carburators for originality purposes(and performance). he's definitely got big block numbers!
luis
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I'm using a 351C with TWM 48IDA style injection and a ZF transaxle. ERA will "fit" the engine to the car when they build it. I have about a 6 month wait for the car yet if they are on schedule. The engine is completed less Haltech ECU. I will pick that up later in the fall.
I have posted pics of the engine and our vist to ERA in '99 on photopoint. If you missed the post on the Cobra forums, the URL's to photo albums are:
The original racing GT40 powerplant was a hipo 289 generating about 400 hp total. The Mark III version was not in anywhere near that state of tune and it was said to be "faster than any competition Cobra."
Torque is a known killer of transaxles that can handle lots of horsepower. Was true in the old days ... and don't see that this has changed a lot. Note the Audi guys at Le Mans this year had changing the transaxle down to about a five minute process. They won nicely, but in the old days you really couldn't do that.
The 68 and 69 Gulf cars were (I believe, but cannot absolutely verify) fitted with the 351W probably destroked to 305 in keeping with the times and they were faster than the Mark IV that won Le Mans in 1967. Remember that to connect that horsepower, they used flares which allowed the mounting of 12" rims on the rear.
The FMS 351W can be had in a 385 hp configuration that everyone says actually makes more like 410 to 420 hp. Will wait 'til the roller is available. Would seem that this ought to be plenty enough go juice without the additional stresses put on a stroker and without the additional torque generated by a stroker. High performance clutch packs for these things are pretty darned expensive too.
As far as the ability to move a car well at reasonably low speeds, my 347 Probe Industries Stroker makes 320 lb feet of RW Torque and makes driving a 2200 lb FFR Cobra a joy in traffic. (BTW, the 347 stroker does consume some more oil than non-stroked engines of similar displacement.)
I must admit to being curios about the need for a mega bore engine in a GT40.
mike starling
FFR 1667
Sabre GT40 6210
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I'm planning on building a 331 stroker, fitted with
Twisted Wedge heads, an 8 barrel EFI manifold, and
either MOTEC or Electromotive EFI. I like the
Electromotive system due to its distributorless
direct ignition (won't have to reach between the
firewall and manifold to fiddle!) Another option
is a 351W long rod block. It's about 352 cid, but
pumps out 420HP and 420 lbs/ft with a stock Ford
EFI. That's the target range I'm shooting for.
BTW, the GT40 is a mid-engined vehicle, not rear
engined. Big difference -- the block sits in front
of the rear axle, not behind it (the 911 is rear
engined). This brings the weight distro to 40/60,
as GT40Dallas said, wheelies are not an issue.
Ian
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I think Mike is right on this one. Remember Shelby went to the 427 in this car in 67 and then they came back in 68 and 69 with the small block and still won. Mostly because of reliablity. I think you'll find more than enough zip in these cars at around 300 hp. At 10:1 compression ratio I'm not sure but I think that takes you out of the pump gas range. But then it depends if you're racing or going for a Sunday drive.
A major problem is transaxle failure and unless you're ready to replace these frequently go ahead. Also again unless you are racing, I don't know where the opportunity arises that you need more than 250 to 300 hp. Keep in mind they are very light and similar to driving a shifter kart. Not that I'm comparing the car to a go kart but the driving feel is relatively the same as you're sitting very low to the ground in a light car with limited cockpit space, with lots of power and sometimes difficult to control around corners.
If you're planning on running 800 hp I think you're only choice is a modified ZF, but be prepared to spend big bucks. Again it depends on how you drive it. Another option would be to use a whole bunch of cheaper transaxles you can replace monthly or whenever.
Also I heard somewhere I can't remember that someone used a modifed 351W and had problems routing the headers. I think it had to do with the manifold. Someone may remember what that was about.
Regards
Paul Campoli
Toronto, Canada
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Guys I just want to follow up on my previous post. These cars are known for their overheating problems. Keep in mind that if you sway from the manufacturers suggested engine set up you will need to modify the cooling system. If you plan on keeping the car moving at all times for example only racing or track days you may be okay, but when standing still you will undoubtedly have a over heating problem.
You may want to put a larger rad, definately fans, larger piping, oil coolers, tranny coolers etc. Which brings me back to, if you have a smaller engine in the car, you will have more room for the extras.
Also, don't plan on building this car without air conditioning. It's hot in the cock pit. Find the largest unit that will fit. Remember, you can't roll down a window or put the roof down. The more room you use in the engine bay for your engine the less room you have for real important things like a/c. I know that a/c is not possible with a big block.
Paul Campoli
Toronto, Canada
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Because my GT40 will be used more for touring type driving I am going to stroke it to 327. It will have the Edelbrock performer RPM heads and Weber type fuel injection. I will use Wolf Electronics. I just feel that anymore than 400 HP would be wasted. I believe that gearing is far more important than low end torque
and gobbs of HP for my purpose.
Hersh
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WELL, I GUESS IT'S TIME THAT I GET INVOLVED HERE NOW. HERSH, ROBERT, RON, HOWDY...IT'S THE LITTLE GUY FROM TEXAS THAT IS BUILDING A SABRE GT40. I LOVE THE SIGHT AND HOPE TO LEARN FROM YOU GUYS.
I AM USING A 351 CLEVELAND, STROKED TO A 383, BENCH DYNOED AT A HAIR LESS THAN 500 HP BUT WITHOUT THE ADDED HP OF THE NEW HOLLEY HP SERIES CARB THAT WAS JUST ADDED. I AM MATCHING THIS UP WITH AN 87 PORSCHE G50 BY WAY OF A KENNEDY ADAPTOR PLATE AND FLYWHEEL. DARN LITTLE THING IF I MIGHT SAY SO. I AM USED TO THOSE BIG OLD FLYWHEELS AND LAKEWOOD SCATTERSHIELDS.
I WANTED THE BIG BLOCK LOOK WITHOUT ALL OF THE WEIGHT AND ALSO WANTED THE COOL RUNNING OF A CLEVELAND...KINDA LIKE A PANTERA ON STEROIDS. I STAYED WITH THE CAST IRON HEADS THAT WERE CUSTOM BUILT FOR THIS ENGINE.
GEORGE COCHRAN IS BUILDING THE HEADERS IN 1 7/8" PIPES FOR EASY BREATHING. FOR THE SOUND I AM HAVING HIM TAKE ONE OF THE THREE BAFFLES OUT SO EVERYONE KNOWS WHEN IT FIRES UP.
MOTOR SHOULD BE IN THE CAR LATER THIS WEEK OR NEXT.
RON, THIS IS A GREAT SIGHT AND IDEA, PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. ROBERT, NEXT TIME, BRING SOME BEER (JOKE). THE COOLER ALWAYS HAS BEER HERE. FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN ROBERTS CAR AND MOTOR, GET HIM TO SEND YOU A PIC. IT'S GREAT! WHEN HE FINISHES IT, HE CAN LICENSE IT AS AN ANTIQUE.
GLAD I FINALLY MADE IT.
JAY
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Hi Jay !
I'm glad to see you found this place. I was wondering if you are going to the fling next year. If you are coming I hope it is in the GT40. I am planning on driving my GT40 there if its done. I see no reason for it not to be ready unless some major catastrophe happens. I really enjoyed meeting you and Kieth. By the way waht was the cause of that rear end failure?
Once again welcome aboard.
Your Friend,
Hershal Byrd
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As we speak we are changing the engine out in the Factory demo car to one of our 420hp 302's. We are getting ready for run&gun.
The choice that we will use in our car is one of our full race 306's. it developes over 700hp an 400ft of torque and can be shifted at 9000 revs on a regular basis.
I also sent one of our 475hp 342's to Robert to try out in his car. It should be a beast.
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Should be getting my engine before too much longer. It is a 342 with AFR 185s, Sportsman block, 11:1, with a target hp of 450-485. I will dyno it to see what it really ends up making. If it would make over 350 to the wheels I'd be estatic and probably at a serious loss for traction.
Gordon, I might swap the cam from Coast for one of yours eventually, but I was worried about your duration reversion. Probably fine but I would like to see how it works out on the blue car, cams are easily put in and out on this car since the engine isn't nearly as hard to pull as with a fox body.
Nice thing about the small block is just that, the range of "tunability" is incredible. It can be a docile 200hp motor or a 500hp motor, or as Gordon indicated, a even more. By the way, what kind of cash ballpark are we talking for the screamer? $10k?
Also Hershal indicated you've no laptop to tune with, I will see if I have an older one I can get to you.
Ron
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Ron, we changed our minds and decided to go with a 342 in my configuration. With the MoTeC, I think we should be pretty close to 500hp.
Which screemer were you talking about? We have so many levels of 302 from 300hp to over 700hp. It's nice to be able to taylor the engine to the primary use.
Do you know what clutch disc is in this car? I would like to find a good kevlar one.
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I heard Robert say once that the clutch is Jaguar XJS. I know it is bigger than an Audi since you have to do a little gringding inside the bell housing to get it in there.
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I'm building up a 351W with 48IDA's and aiming for 400+ HP. The headers are going to fit fine but the firing order on the 351 is different to the 289/302 so the routing needs to be altered to achieve the same vortex effect as on the original cars.
I've just had an email from one of the GT40 guys in the UK and he has sent me pictures from the GTD track day at Goowood. 23 cars turned up. Very impressive. If anyone would like a copy or to see pictures of a monocoque chassis build, drop me a line.
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I've just had an email from a GT40 club member in the UK who sent me pictures from a GTD track day at Goowood. If anyone would like a copy or would like to see pictures of a semi-monocoque chasis build from original Ford drawings which is underway here, drop me a line.
I'm building up a 351W with 48IDA's and aiming for 400+ HP. The headers will fit just fine but need to enter the collector differently to achieve the same exhaust vortex of the original cars because the firing order is different to the 289/302.
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I've just had an email from a GT40 club member in the UK who sent me pictures from a GTD track day at Goowood. If anyone would like a copy or would like to see pictures of a semi-monocoque chasis build from original Ford drawings which is underway here, drop me a line.
I'm building up a 351W with 48IDA's and aiming for 400+ HP. The headers will fit just fine but need to enter the collector differently to achieve the same exhaust vortex of the original cars because the firing order is different to the 289/302.
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