This was a 2002 discussion with M Jacobs on the "Door". Many pertinant points I think in regards to behavior of the brethren and acceptance (or not) of Bro Russell's teachings...
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*I think a few points must first be pointed out that might help in understanding the present rift that exist among the faithful.
...A difference of opinion is not a rift... but a difference of opinion. Bible Students groups in general make belief in the open door a point of fellowship... it has become their creed and is written in their publications... such as the back page of the BS Newsletter...
Point One:Simply put as you have taught me the LHMM Bible-Students have been taught and believe the chance for any heavenly spiritual reward as Little Flock members ended with Br.Johnson.The Great-Company as well has gone beyond the vail.
Correction: Bro Johnson was far from being the last of the Spirit begotten... but we believe he was the last to go beyond the vail... God not leaving the flock without an earthly leader.
re: Point Two: There is only one way to believe in God.. and to follow His Word. Remember it was Bro Russell in Volume six who started this ball rolling... that ALL CROWNS WERE TAKEN, and that there was no promise of a crown for any, but as some were lost God would select a replacement. Thus he taught that this other class was already developing. If there was such a difference between how the two thought, then it would have been easy to tell them apart in the flesh.. but quite the opposite thing happened as history shows. And the basic instruct Bro Russell was giving was that no one should therefore fasten their heart to a crown, feeling anything less was unacceptable... but that they should give God their heart, follow with their might, and take what he gives. HE clearly stated the high call was closed... now only a special call was working to finish up the last foot members... this was nearly 120 years ago. Today the demeanor of High Call brethren in their own conventions is often times deplorable, the speakers calling one another on the carpet... and such. Most live in lovely homes and drive expensive cares and run large businesses of their own... where is the sacrifice of worldly possessions? In Bro Russells day they rode trains and split meals so as not to squander the Lord's money... and had no life at all outside of the truth.
What the Scriptures show as to a time of confusion and not seeing eye to eye are given in 1 Chron 7, and interestingly enough have to do with the dedication of the COMPLETED TEMPLE, thus the Little Flock in its completed number... and then smoke [confusion] filled the temple as a result of the completed sacrifice being comsumed by fire from heaven.
Prior to the the watchmen saw eye to eye.
How do we see through eyes of flesh... through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Don't you see, if Bro Russell was right in Vol 6, that consecration is always in order, and will be in order for the world when their time comes, then the giving of the Spirit of enlightenment will always be given to the due class undergoing development. I am not a Youthful Worthy. This class was called only while the LF was still here and the GC was being cleansed. At 1954, the end of the 2nd 40 year period of Leviticus 12, the call ended.
Since then the Cleansed Levites have been instructed to do the next Tabernacle work... since the tent and court had be constructed... by building the camp.. and that announcement was made in 1956 or so... that those in the camp, for the first time would be receiving the Spirit on consecration. Previously all consecrated were in the camp, ... but all in the camp were instructed by the priest in the flesh. The Priest did not function in the camp until the time for the world's blessing, which is future, and the priest in that picture were dressed in garments of glory and beauty... thus spirit beings.
The camp is growing large. All believers of the present truth we believe are there, and we do stand to lose that opportunity, and to come in with the world in general if our hearts are not developed to suit our Master. Thus the great emphasis put on Joel 2 and other such places since Bro Russells death.
Solomon stated "we have a little sister, and she has no breasts"... but later determines she develops by the day she would be spoken for and her breasts were like towers. A strange writing, but showing that the YW class at first had little Scriptural Backing, but in the day she would be spoken for there would be many, and thus there are. Bible Students are just beginning to admit there is such a class, and that class has been closed for nearly 50 years.
I don't accuse you of claiming to be superior. I know better. But if the elect were still among us, you'd think they'd have some sort of consensus as to exactly what was what,,, but what we see is more difference than what is shared in common.
I agree on your thought of individualism... but the personal account we keep with the Father has more to do with our character development... not doctrine. A person cannot see what has not been given them to see... and if it has been given and they unduly reject it... then that would change the relationship with the father. Yes, who are teachers are does affect to some great extent what we believe... but then aren't we asked to study to show ourselves approved?... Consider the HIgh Call group have taught it open for over 80 years, many times over suggesting that all consecrators get a crown in opposition to the thoughts of Bro Russell... even to this day, few would state it as he did in his work. that is rejection of the truth. At least you can see that only a few amongst the consecrated since 1881 were begotten... I credit you with common sense.
SOME BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN MIKE AND JONALFRED
Mike said: *I understand your position on this and it revolves around believing Br.Johnsons teaching that the opportunity to gain a crown ended with himself.
JONALFRED: again no... our position is that the opportunity ended by September 1914, and that those final ones were sealed by Passover 1916... nothing to do with Bro Johnson... we just believe it reasonable to state that the LF leader would be the last to pass.
Mike said: *The door being opened or closed is insignificant for those who are outside because they never would go through it if they thought it was closed to them.
JONALFRED:It is not necessary for one to know whether or not he was within that door or not, or Bro Russell would never have stated it as he did in Volume 6; 156... stating that all should run as if...only the Lord knowing who was in and who was out.
Mike said" *When you see a door closed and locked in front of you generally turn and walk away from it.The unbelieving did just that in Noahs day but when the rains came I am sure they knocked on the door out of deperation when the rains came.
JONALFRED: Don't forget Noah preached for 120 years prior to the Lord closing the door.
Mike said" *A parallel is occurring right now if you look close for many are scoffing and laughing at those in the narrow way everyday. We are foolishness to the world and not taken seriously by the rest of our brethren who see differently as to our high calling and commitment.
JONALFRED:This experience is common to us all and has been as such since the beginning, even since Noah. However, we do not scoff at you for you high calling hope, ... we are just puzzled somewhat that it still continues in the light of even how bro russell worded his thoughts on it and it's closing.
Mike said: *I think I covered this in my above explanation of what happened after our Pastors death.He(Rutherford) fits the example of the one who felt compelled to lead and change as doing nothing just didnt seem right.
JONALFRED:The Elijah Voice Society were the ones who did nothing. The Standfast movement, which subsequently died out. It wasn't that Rutherford did nothing... he just did nothing right. He effectively changed the majority of Watch Tower teachings in just 10 short years. The Society was annointed by God then as Elisha to do a certain work, but that work was not to continue to develop the Present Truth... but to go out as the mouthpiece to the World and NOminal Christendom as to the coming earthly Kingdom... thus they only retained the teachings on the earthly kingdom, hell, death, the soul... but lost all else.
Bro Johnson was not a do nothing either, but insisted that the work Bro Russell started be finished... the completion of the tabernacle picture, the deliverance of the 2nd goat to the fit man... and a comforting work toward Israel.
The levites represent not only the YW class, but the GC class who were remanded to the court after losing their crowns... and they do a levitical work to this day, in publishing the various Works of that servant, even though they often disagree with what they print.
Mike said" *Bro.R tried desperately to put all truth in place within his lifetime as he thought that was the will of God.
JONALFRED:How so?... he was only 64 when he died... he could well have lived to be 80 or 90 or more. I believe the Lord took him when He did to create a trial that would divide the GC and expose who they were.
Mike said" *I find his ideas are not always in harmony with the better New Testament light.
JONALFRED: Your light is better than what the Lord gave His messenger?
Mike said" *The hidden messages within the hidden messages along with the parallels and types for everything within his own history can only be justified by the shadows of the Old Testament types and parallels.
JONALFRED:Is this reading between the lines? a dangerous practice... And it is just what you state... the OT types, and the NT light shone upon them in the Epiphany time, which was a night time experience [John 9:4]... as Bro Russells commentary on the OT was very slim, and Bro Johnson's very great.
Mike said" *This to me is a very shaky way to prove ones point and base ones beliefs.You must harmonize the old with the new or you end with with only half truths and a dim vision of the whole picture.
JONALFRED: EXACTLY; but it is the bible Students who have told me "We doubt that Elijah is even a type" just to avoid the argument. "We doubt, even if he was a type, that Elisha was a type also",... even though they were closely entwined and inseparable.
Mike said" Rs historical account of what occurred is remarkable.His dedication to serve God is commendable and his record is worth consideration.But!His accuracy in regards to himself and his end vision of time parallels is questionable.I think desperation caused him to complete his thoughts as his time ran out and some square pegs where put in round holes so to speak.
JONALFRED: You said before you could see the argument for the Youthful Worthy class... that is good as it was Bro r's argument. How could it be that this class has been developing for over 100 years and the vast majority of Bible Students who claim to be priests in the making have and still refuse it as truth?
I don't believe he ever acted out of desparation... surely there were times when he was thinking out loud... but he was always a man of reason, and never a man of impulsiveness.
Mike said: [re: YW class]*Yes I see the value of such a class.Yes I believe it exist as you are proof of that.
JONALFRED: I am not of that class...
Mike said: *What I see differently than you see is the fact that this class is an offshoot of the harvest.I dont see it as part of the plan but a remnant of what happened during the development and institution of Gods plan.
JONALFRED: AN OFFSHOOT! Not part of the original plan... but what?, an afterthought... for God! Then why does He speak of this afterthough thousands of years before in Joel 2 and various other places? God did originally intend 4 elect classes typed by the priests and the 3 groups of Levites... and then those typed by the camp in their 12 tribes.
Mike said" *Not possessing the spirit of Christ is exactly why we are allowed not to see eye to eye .
JONALFRED: But why wouldnt' those last foot members continue to see eye to eye, since they were indeed LF members... I contend that that was just the case, and it continued from 1916 until 1950.
Mike said: *I have tried my best to answer some these difficult questions and my hope was to unite in spirit our desire to serve and love each other through these difficult times.The whole point is as you say to show forth the spirit of Christ in fullness and joy to the fullest.If we do this we have overcome the enemy of our soul and found liberty to Love like God and be as Christ in spirit and service for each other and for the Father of us all who has made it so.
JONALFRED: With this I agree... well, at least now maybe we understand each others positions a little more.. What of you Epiphany reading... I've not heard a word...
May God continue to bless you brother
bro jon Colossians 2: 2-3
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