Not much changed with me other than that I cannot write as much as I would like to due to many unnecessary things around me. I am lookng forward to the day when I will go back to Turkey, find myself a nice mountain top with a beautiful view of the sea and just write for the rest of my life. Well, a little drinking and other extracurricular activities on the side as well.
I witnessed your little problem with the Hye Forum through the posts in your own forum. At first I was impressed with that forum, but later I thought it was going to be better if I kicked myself out before anyone else did. I was disappointed in other words. I have not been there since then.
I saw your new forum. Honestly, I still do not know what I might say there, since I have not seen either of the movies yet. Ararat may be better than what Midnight express has been so far for the Turks, but I am afraid it is not going to be much different in principle except that there will probably be more historical facts this time; of course with a lot of anti-Turkish shit probably. I do not know if you have ever seen 'America, America' by Elia Kazan. That one never really bothered me. Although according to some this one was fairly anti-Turkish, to me, and to some of my friends, there was nothing abnormal.
Yes, your forum is getting more beautiful everyday. If it was a 'gonca' in the beginning, now it is surely a fully blossomed 'gul'.
And, I, on the other hand, am still busy with heavy subjects. It must be my destiny.
See you around.
t.
This message has been edited by pigeti on Dec 19, 2001 10:33 PM
How are you, other than being up to your ears in work? Family, etc.?
The Beads and Ararat Forum - I don't know about it myself. I'm having second thoughts as to why I have opened it. I mean, what if Ararat is going to have waaaaay too much anti-Turkish shit (abnormalities) in it? That wouldn't please me the least, but I am told he's a classy guy - so, who knows...
My main focus, so far, is on Salkım Hanım's Beads... I think they have something in common - the reactions they get...
I believe there's going to be even more of that stuff with the Beads in the upcoming months - plus Ararat premiers in May, I think... Lots of informational stuff on that forum, there will be... At least I hope that's what happens by that time...
Thanks for the comment on the forum... I've been working on it some, and, while the buttons serve no purpose, the smilies and the formatting codes do! My forums’ members deserve the best!
Family? My family is my daughter and she is doing just fine. Next Sunday is her birthday and she is going to be five. We are actually having a lot of fun.
About Arafat, I hear you. I think he is a classy guy, too, but still you never know. I think there is a good chance that there will be a lot of ‘anti-Turkish shit’ in it. Even if there is not too much anti-Turkish shit, and actually he does not need too much after Midnight Express, the way the whole thing will be interpreted will probably end up being anti-Turkish anyway. But, why are you worried about this so much? I am not trying to imply that you are anti-Turkish in any way. Still, I must say I am confused with your stand on this issue. I was also surprised with your little engagement with Skevi. To be honest, I was expecting something very different. I would not mind reading it if you decide to give me a little info on this.
Personally, I am not sure if movies really work much in issues like this. They help in some ways. For example, if it were not for Salkim Hanim most people would not have known such things took place. Not everyone reads history books. I think movies work much more effectively than the history books to some extent; but they are also very effective in helping people have the wrong ideas, if they are not done right. I guess we will have to wait and see. In any case, it will be difficult for Turks to be impartial about it. I only hope that it is not as bad as Midnight Express.
Timucin and Thorny, both of you are talking about Ararat, like it is all about the genocide. It is not, it is more about the Armenian culture, of course the genocide being the center of it, since it was from there that the diaspora has been created.
The film do not take place in 1915, the genocide is a memory of a man in the film and a kind of return in his origine. I don't know if it could be compared with "midnigh express", that was dealing with Turkish republic prisons etc... and not a collapsing impire...
First of all, the Midnight Express was not about the Turkish jails or the Turkish criminal system. If it were it would not have been as successful as it was. It was an exaggerated version of a foreigner’s memories/perspectives about the things he experienced while he was in jail in Turkey. However, it has been said that not the actual person who experienced the stuff, but the maker of the movie put most of the really anti-Turkish parts into the movie. Therefore, the movie is not really about what this person experienced, either. The bottom point is that it was hardly about the jail system in Turkey. The filmmaker could have made a much better movie by going to the real jails and by using those, say, left wing prisoners who really suffered the negativities of the jail system in Turkey. We all know what this movie was about. Just so Mr. Alan Parker could come up with another masterpiece a culture has been violently sacrificed to the point that there is simply no way of cleaning up the mess. For the movie was about discriminatorily belittling and insulting a specific culture, not a specific jail system. In any case, what is done is done; nobody can repair it. But, there is no need to be sarcastic, perhaps not intentionally, by calling this a movie about the Turkish jail system, either.
Coming back to Arafat, I already said that it is too early to say anything. I do not know what the movie is about. My point is that I will simply not be surprised too much, if this one also proves to be in the same lines with the Midnight Express as far as insulting another culture goes. Since Alan Parker and Oliver Stone are also as ‘cool’ as Atom Egonyan I do not take this as my basis of forming an opinion regarding what may come. I would not have expected such a movie by Alan Parker and Oliver Stone either, but it happened.
I am not really against seeing a movie about the Armenian Genocide. It is part of the history, and there should be movies about it. I read a few commentaries in the Turkish media. I guess the ones I read are more worried about the word Genocide. I do not care about this, either. For I go by what ended up happening. Whether it was a planned genocide or not, the end result was genocide. Elias Kazan used the Armenian Genocide in his movie ‘America, America’. I saw nothing wrong with this usage. The problem starts not with what the movie is about, but the way the information the movie relies on is presented. It is very natural to expect that an Armenian will tell his side of the story. That should not be a problem, either. However, one may make monsters out of the culture these killers came from or one may concentrate on the killers themselves, leaving the culture itself intact. We shall see which one of these approaches Atom Egoyan chooses.
My stance - what is confusing about it? I haven't figured it out myself, either. However, I am opposed to those who will argue it should be put on the shelf just because it has something to do with the genocide. That's all. There are rumours of serious reactions on the part of the government for this one... Who knows... But it is what the people think/say that counts for me, more or less... That's why I want to put together a good forum. (Unfortunately, some elements dirty it. Fakking spammers...)
but about the Genocide I was asking and its relationship with the present Turkish society.
You want to have a good forum? Don't play around. Just set up passwords, and make it a semi closed or a closed one. It is simple. You know you are going to get this shit as long as you have an open forum; so why even bother with having one.
I think we should not expect (care) about how "objective" movies or fiction are. One can critiques about any scientific study or work claims-scientific validity (e.g., articles, history books,etc.) based on criteria of objectivity or its scope whether "truly" represent the phenomenon at hand. Consequently, we should have different standards to evaluate any movies.
For example, I love the series in history channel: Hollywood vs. history. it is almost rule, there is not much movie represent historical facts or conditions. Even the movies directed with "good intention" include somewhat bias information (e.g., dancing with wolfs).
However, the idea that we should not expect objectivity from movies should not stop thinkers (scientists, intellectuals, columnists,etc) to discuss movies content (muhalefet serhi koymak) and express their ideas to public because the movies are very important part of knowledge gaining for many people.
In this content, I see no problem people discussing how "salkim hanimin taneleri" represent the reality. We cannot expect the movie should shed light on all aspect of the wealth taxation during 1940s but we can "correct" it through public discussion. For example, I did not know that the government also forced turkish farmer to sell (or handover) their products with very low price. However, the public discussion (as happening in TC)should not take form of lynching the movie makers on the base of armenian propaganda. (BYT, I think the turkish movie did great contribution to the armenian genocide conflict eventhough the content of movies has nothing to do with 1915 tragedy. First time, we has armenian victims in our psyche).
Another important point. Yes, we should not expect movies being "objective" but we can evaluate them how far they violate the objectivity. In other words, are they simply subjective or racist. Representing one phenomenon in some "biased" direction is not same with portraying members of all group or nation (turks) as same (evil, barbaric).
In this content, as timucin points out, the midnight express is not simply biased "normal movie" but a racist one. Not just guards or turkish police but the even turkish prisoners were depicted as "evil", low life creatures. The scenario might take place in prison but the movie is not about turkish prison systems but how turks are inhuman....
So, we (i) will look the upcoming movie, ararat, in those above concept (just normal movies vs. racist one). Of course, I'll evaluate on it in terms art aspects too
Another related aspect is related to general turkish image. Sure, each movies (generally) focus on one aspect of culture/society/people/individual (in our instance,history). However, these sorts of movies also contribute (introduce) who turks (or armenian) are. The unfortunate thing is the world has no idea who hell the turks are (or generally has very limited negative ones). So, the movies will provide the cognitive availability heuristic (shortcut) for many. The already exist heuristic about turks are generally very negative. I do not remember how many I talk first time (outside turkey), their second/third sentence was "did i see the midnight express". I just read an article about what turks mean in some European dictionary (eg. netherlands). Turks: dangerous, dirty, aggressive, corruption....etc. (and they refuse to change it). I remember one conference talking about the depiction of barbaric/vulgarity in dostoyavski works (or other russian writers). He did great jop giving many examples of those sort of act from different nations. But, when it comes to turks (or tatars), he have extra edge for turks action!!while he generally depicting other violence/crime/war/unhuman treatment in terms of greed, religious conflict, racial hatred, etc, but turks basically enjoy this act. It is part of their nature.. I have even scientific (survey) evidence for this racism agaist turks! Unfortunately, most of the armenian sentiments about armenian genocide have been based on these turkish stereotypes in public debates. So, I think the movie ararat, or midnight express, is not just movie for many turks (including me). As usual, the turkish public debate is (will) divide pro vs. agaist camp and evaluate the movie accordingly. It is not so simple. Agreeing or disagreeing with armanian genocide should not the only schema to evaluate the upcoming movies of ararat.
wait and see.
peace, artun
About the genocide? How so?
As for the forum, I have two active moderators plus myself. I'm thinking of enabling a large group if it is so bad that we can't handle it. You know very well that I have some experience.
Piggeti, I was not trying to be sacrcastic. To say you the truth I saw "Midnight express" years ago, because it was passing on a television channel. In fact I even didn't remembered the film, I just knew that Midnigh express was the film I saw when ED posted something about a year ago.
What I remember in the film wasa the man in the prison and the bad threatments he had, I do not recall something about Turkish cultures of how the film maker was downplaying it. Maybe I need to see it again. I will probably not, I remember to not having loved the film, and turning the channel many times and returning later when there was publicity on the other channel etc...
What I kept from the film was a bad condition of Turkish prison, something that could have been turned in Russia or elswhere.
As for Ararat, there is scoops that I will not reviel, but the film like I said is not exclusivly about the Armenian genocide, it is about a diasporan Armenian that recall things and do a return to his origine, it is more dedicated on the formation of the diasporan Armenians etc... When Midnight express was about a man in a Turkish prison pouting more Turkey as a center, on the other hand Ararat is more about Armenian music, culture the diasporan formation, of course the genocide play an important role in the film.
Yes there is a scene that will be considered as anti-Turkish. The one with the decapited heads on the street. Even the attack on Van, is about the Army against people... I think Egoyan was very responsable in how he managed to not downplay the Turkish culture. If you have seen his documentary like film Calender, about Armenian churchs, you will see by yourself, that even if he could have the chance to talk about the destrcution of others etc... he pout the center on the churchs and only these churchs.
Like I said, the film is not a historical one, it is not also a Hollywood type of film, its a kind of authored film, Egoyan films remember me of Iranian productions etc... all the center is pout on memory of people, it do not talk about archives proves etc... just someone that recal and return to his orgine...
Thats film will bring something to the Turkish society by opposition of Midnight Express(from what I remember). For this I believe that the Turkish government by banning its diffusion from Turkish public is doing a very big mistake. They have to see by themselves the film, and they will see they are doing to much noises.
A movie about the Armenian Genocide, or at least one with a central Genocide theme, was bound to be made sooner or later. All I can say is that Turkey is lucky that it will be an Egoyan picture.
Atom Egoyan is an extremely disciplined director who would never stoop as low as to call Turkey "a nation of pigs" or what have you such as Alan Parker did. The fact that it is an Egoyan picture will ensure that Turks are treated with respect and not bluntly degraded -- this is, of course, unless you feel accusing Turkey of Genocide is "insulting" to the Turkish people. This is a historical accuracy, and those who will take offense to that are like those who view "Schlinder's List" as anti-German. It is irrational.
Futhermore, Egoyan's movies are so interwoven and complex that it will not be a historical-type picture of any sort. They are quite confusing at times and this may turn many viewers off. This is another benefit for the Turkish government, as Egoyan's style would not permit him to make a documentary-type movie. Unfortunate for the Armenians, of course, as we finally get a respected director but he cannot make a very viewer-friendly picture. Then again, his pictures are very much noted by critics and Ararat will surely pick up many awards along the way.
Thorny, if you are worried about anti-Turkish material coming from his movies, I suggest you take a look at his earlier movies, notably Exotica and The Sweet Hereafter. I have asked you about this before and it is very possible that his movies may not be available in Turkey, but if you can, please rent one now. Not only will his movies astound you but you will see that he is a very tactful and classy guy who will make a fair, but powerful, film out of Ararat.
Even if they were available, which I am inclined to think not...
December 27 2001, 11:56 PM
... I wouldn't be able to get to rent and watch them - all that kind of equipment is with my parents, whom I am not with at the moment (until summer, in fact)...
My forums’ members deserve the best! 
