When is the Toronto Dragonboat community going to stop the mandatory use of pfd's for primier events? At the world level we don't use lifejackets so why must we do all of our "dress rehersals" (for lack of a better term)here at home in pfd's. It is a farse. Do elite rowers use them? No. Do elite level flatwater paddlers use them? No. So why do elite level dragonboaters use them? With out question they hinder tec development and limit a paddlers range of motion. We should get rid of them, at least on the primier level.

1. dragon boat racing is not a sport
2. the toronto port authority says we must wear them and they are the supreme authority on GTA water (for now anyway)
3. events outside toronto are subject to Canadian Coast Guard policy which says that all participants must wear a jacket
4. insurance companies will not cover events where jackets are not worn
5. dragon boat racing is not a sport

1- dragonboat racing is a sport
2- if insurance companies don't insure non-life jacket events in dragonboating, why do they do it for other sports like flatwater and rowing?
3- why does the coast guard not inforce laws to the other water sports?
4- Why do insurance companies insure international events? Are they more insurable?
5- If a major event like a world championship were to come to Toronto would they have to wear life jackets? How would that make us look? Mickey Mouse I think.

Yes, novice level and intermediate level teams should wear life vests (5 years or less or less than 8000km on the water). But teams where some paddlers have 10-20 years experience (multi-watersport) should not be subject to the same laws. Simply, they don't live by them most of the flatwater trainig year. A lifejacket in the boat is enough.

1. Call Ottawa. Dragon boat is not a sport in the eyes of Sport Canada or Transport Canada who govern our waters.
2. As sports, canoeing and rowing have conditional PFD exemptions under federal law. Do some reading.
3. If an insurance company does due dilligance they will discover that a festival group would incur huge liability if their participants are not wearing PFD's as would the owners or stewarts of the water.
4. Dragon boat may be a sport in other countries or their laws may be different. Read the CCG guidlines on vessels over 12 metres. We're getting off relatively easy.
5. If 2006 worlds were to come to Toronto the current rule would require PFD's. It's all about the Toronto Port Authority covering their butts. If someone drowned, they would get sued along with everyone else for not governing their harbour safely.

My question has always been this.............How do you rescue a minimum of 22 people in rough water should they capsize? It gets worse in a multiple boat collision. I saw this happen many years ago in London on The Thames and it wasn't a pretty site.

The reason dragonboaters have to wear life jackets is that people renting the boats out make us wear them, for their own reasons (could be insurance, could be whatever).

Canada Shipping Act, Small Vessel Regulations, CRC Vol. XVII, c.1487 says:
Exception for Racing Canoes, Racing Kayaks and Rowing Shells:

A pleasure craft that is a racing canoe or a racing kayak is not required to carry personal protection equipment, boat
safety equipment and distress equipment in accordance with the Act if it and its crew are engaged in formal training, in
an official competition or in final preparation for an offical competition and,
A. it is attended by a safety craft carrying a personal flotation device or lifejacket of appropriate size for each member of
the crew:
(i) of the pleasure craft, if the safety craft is only attending the pleasure craft
(ii) of the largest vessel being attended, if the safety vessel is attending more than one vessel and
B. it carries:
(i) a personal flotation device or lifejacket of appropriate size for each member of the crew
(ii) a sound-signalling device, and
(iii) if it is operated after sunset and before sunrise, a watertight flashlight
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Rowing Canada says:
(http://www.rowingcanada.org/en/sport/safetyInfo.html )
------------------------------------------------------
Lifejackets: Wearing a normal, bulky lifejacket does not allow someone to row properly. A lifejacket can get in the way of necessary hand and arm movements, as well as blocking the elimination of heat from the body. This could be a major health concern during the summer months. Effective in 1999, Canadian Coast Guard Regulations require rowing shells to have life jackets aboard unless:

* it is attended by a safety craft carrying an approved PFD or lifejacket of appropriate size for each member of the crew of the largest vessel being attended; or
* if it is competing or training during a provincially, nationally, or internationally sanctioned regatta or competition.

In general, you should have a life-jacket in the rowing shell with you (one per person) or the motor boat beside you must carry them.
----------------------------------------------------

Mike, I was at the last race in London held on the Thames, the old location, and the worst incident that day involving a dragon boat was when the Loblaws team did a hard right turn and ran into the river bank, tipped over and spilled out the team into less than 3 feet of water. Some of the novice paddlers freaked out, and one was helped out and wrapped in a shock blanket. Yes, it wasn't a pretty sight but it's not the armageddon-like scenario that you always like to paint for us; 8 boats all simultaneously colliding and knocking 160+ paddlers into the water, unconscious, face down, etc, etc.

Ignoring the safety implications in our sport (recreational activity, whatever) would be silly, but so is alarmism. The best thing would be for the Toronto Port Authority to get off it's moral high horse and allow the use of inflatable life jackets like the Mustang. (they ARE Canadian coast guard approved after all) It's not a perfect solution, but it's a reasonable compromise.

Yes, I would say the inflatable is a good compromise. Note that a dragon boat is not a racing canoe or a rowing shell. In the eyes of the federal government and the Coast Guard, a dragon boat is simply a vessel that is over 12 metres long and therefore requires a whole lot of safety equipment aboard which would probably sink the boat. The current compromise with CCG is for everyone to wear a PFD and that includes the inflatable PFD. Having said that, festivals and other authorities can strengthen those rules and ultimately paddlers can decide where to race and whether to accept the rules thereunder.

I agree the Toronto Port Authority needs to go.

How does an unconcious paddler inflate an inflatable ?

In over 100 hundred years CCA has never had a problem with pfd's or lack of pfd's. Eight boats per race in a C-15, with a canoe far less stable than a dragonboat. Hundreds of paddlers per year in dozens of races per year. NEVER A MAJOR PROBLEM. Our major dragonboat comp don't train in pfd's and as we know after the last worlds the the gap from 1st place to 5th can be less than a second.

C'mon, Mike. When was the last time you ever heard of an unconscious dragon boat racer in the water? Outside of Asia I have heard of ONE dragon boat accident resulting in someone drowning. Considering the number of people out there paddling every day, it sounds like things are pretty safe. Pro-active is one thing, but fear mongering is another.

Unlike some others out here, I do believe that Dragon Boat Racing IS a sport. I really don't care that Sport Canada has not declared it as such. A rose by any other name...

So for this sport to be more fun, more competitive, and less uncomfortable I am in favour of not requiring the use of life jackets for competition. At practices, well, I'm willing to endure that because it's easy to be out of sight and hard for help to reach you in case of an accident. But at a regatta there are hundreds of ears and eyes to take in a problem and then get help.

I think the Mustang inflatable PFD is a great compromise solution because it can help in most situations if a boat capsizes. To me, this is good enough. If you disagree, and others like you disagree, feel free to wear a full-size life jacket every time you go out on the water. Your choice. But don't try to force it on me.

The life jackets worn in dragonboating are Type III PFDs.
"Type III PFD, or flotation aid is good for calm, inland water, or where there is a good chance of quick rescue. It is designed so that wearers can put themselves in a face-up position in the water. The wearer may have to tilt their head back to avoid turning face down."
Useless if unconscious, just like the Mustang.
The best part is that the Mustang is classified as Type III PFD, so in the eyes of the Coast Guard, both US and Canadian, it's the same thing as the stuff we are forced to wear.
Both of these are Type III PFDs:





If being unconscious is such a problem we should be forced to wear Type I PFDs.
"A Type I PFD, or offshore life jacket provides the most buoyancy. It is effective for all waters, especially open, rough, or remote waters where rescue may be delayed. It is designed to turn most unconscious wearers in the water to a face-up position."

This is Type I PFD:

Let's get Mike a Type I PFD for X-mas, and make him wear it every race, every practice. Because god forbid he should be involved in a boating accident and knocked unconscious, face down in the water. His precious Type III pfd would be worthless.

So what is it Mike, absolute safety, or a reasonable compromise?

Happy Holidays, Mike.

Inflate an Inflatable?

This is the same argument that comes up every time we have this discussion about the Inflatable PFD's. You would think that there is a 100% chance that if a boat goes over that you will be knocked unconscious.

The fact is that in all my racing, say 40-50 regattas, hundreds of heats, thousands of boats, I have never ever seen anyone get knocked out. In all the other events and stories in the past 6+ years I have never heard of it happening anywhere else and I would bet that you haven't either.

In fact I have never even see a boat sink aggressively. By that I mean they generally take on water and sink, not roll completely over.

You have more chance of getting impaled my a dragon head or paddle (things I have seen many times) so maybe helmets, flack jackets and shoulder pads make more sense than banning Inflatables.

It seems a bit extreme to me to have a rule to cover a circumstance that has never (possibly in the history of Dragon Boat) ever occurred.

There is probably more chance of getting knocked unconscious in most other water craft, with their sails, booms, higher gunnels and such and yet the coast guard seems to think they are safe enough for those.

I am all for safety but there is nothing to indicate that the exclusion of Inflatables increases the safety factor in anyway based on historical situations, which like it or not are the best indicator of the future.

Cheers

hadn't read all the thread, but Mike's rsponse to this argument will be that at least with the Type III jacket you will float rather than possibly sink where you would not be seen.

Same argument goes though. PEOPLE NEVER GET KNOCKED OUT! At least historically speaking. And I bet you that the one person that drowned wasn't knocked out, but probably had no PFD at all in some extreme set of circumstances.

Cheers

I think GWN had done a worst case scenario if a dragonboat sank. There were concerns that paddlers from another boat would/could knock someone out who is in the water from a sunk boat. When could a paddler go unconscience:
- if the dragonboat flips and hits you on the head
- if your teammate in crazed panic heads you over the head
- the paddlers from the other team head you on the head because their were too close to your crew to swerve away - probably b.c they riding your wash
- the dumbass steersperson thinks the bopping heads are racing buoys

The life-jacket issue stemmed an event in GWN few years back when several boats sank. The response time was horrid in getting the people out of the water. Should have been concerned considering there were only a couple of rescue boats at the time - the media boat, the other towing the inflatable raft.

I understand what you are saying and it makes perfect sense as to why they are doing it.

The problem and my point of contention is that the probability of any of that happening is next to none as it has never happened before.

If they really have concerns then more chase boats would provide a much higher return on overall safety. Certification for Cox's would provide a much higher return on safety. Wider lanes and enforcing wash riding rules would.... Well you get my point I guess.

Cheers

Life is not lived based on "the worst case scenario".

If it was, you wouldn't leave your house, cross the street, drive your car, paddle in a dragon boat or for that matter get within 100 yards of a river or lake in the first place.

I don't know whether to call a guy like Mike Chicken Little, or The Boy in the Bubble. Either way, I hope he gets a new pair of water-wings for Christmas.

I think GWN's stance on the PFD's was a reaction to the power tripping Port Authority (who have also put pressure on insurance companies). We've seen the tactics they've used in regards to the Island Airport, so is it any wonder these control freaks basically give the finger to the Coast Guard and the federal ministry resposible for the Great Lakes? The commissioner has never stepped foot on a laker, knows nothing about Great Lakes navigation, so why whould she bother educating herself about DB racing (or any other paddling/rowing sport)? It's all about power/ego, pure and simple.

Well, if that is the case maybe it's time to move the practice sites somewhere else?

It's against the law not to wear a pfd.

Why not get CCDBA or some other group of similar thinking paddlers together to do something about this rather than blab constantly on the Forum on how you are being shafted.

As for me, I guess that I am a law abiding, safety thinking, conservative wimp who likes to have fun and raise the ire(harrass)of a few die hards. Basically I really only care about my butt and would rather not have to deal with some splashing fool in the drink who might cause me to expend some energy that I could deveote to paddling harder.

Just one last comment about that group in London that freaked out in 3 feet of water. Do they become less of a risk in deeper water?

There is NO law in Canada requiring people to WEAR PFDs. The law requires boats to CARRY PFDs unless exempt for various reasons , such as official rowing and racing regattas and training as outlined above . Even if DBing is not recognized as a sport the law does not require us to wear PFDs , just have them in the boat . Requiring DBers to wear a PFD is the requirement of the organizer or boat owner or santioning body etc . What is the big deal anyway , PFDs are reasonably comfortable and the races are short . Even training paddles are less than an hour .

Its usually not so much as there is a law...which there is not, but rather the insurance that you'd have to have if everyone didn't have one. That's why you have to wear one. Festivals would be twice the price...

A vessel over 12 metres is required by law to carry things like PFD's an anchor, flares and a bilge pump. Since this is not reasonable for a dragon boat the CCG has reached a compromise with dragon boat canada and said, "OK, forget the anchor, flares and bilge pump but we want you all to wear PFD's, OK?"

That's the scoop ladies and gents. It's not a law, but a compromise between dragon boat and the coast guard. There was also a compromise at NACCC where they got a one time PFD exemption. They're doing us a favour folks. Technically they could shut us down.

Sport recognition should be dragon boat canada's highest priority.

Or am I stretching it?

with the compromise to have to wear a legal CCA approved PFD in order to practice and/or race, but the Mustang inflatables are legal CCA approved and should be allowed to be used.

I doubt the insurance companies make a determination between the two and if they do it's because some knob brought it to their attention.

It probably went something like this if at all: Hey if I wanted to allow those sure death, knockout drowning inflatables at this upcoming event would you insurance guys charge me more? Errr, yes, yes we would... What's an inflatable?

Cheers

The Coast Guard discourage the inflatables as there is no test to determine whether they will inflate or not. I was at their Safety Conference a few years ago with them, Toronto Harbour people, Mounties, OPP and other safety minded water sport groups.I can't see these people backing off their stand on safety after seeing all the problems that they deal with on a regular basis. They convinced me and that is why I am so adamant about this.

I can see your point, which would then mean that the Coast Guard or CCA is contradicting itself.

They should either change the law, or allow the Inflatables. They are either safe for use or not safe at all.

How about a compromise? I agree that there is no way to tell if my inflatable would work. I have had it for almost two years now and I have never pulled the string... Even though I have gone overboard in a race in a valiant attempt to save the rest of my crew... Ok, Ok, I jumped, but the rest of the boat did stay afloat.

So, what if you needed to get the CO2 cartridge checked out and or replaced with some sort of sticker or tag or something certifying that it was in good working order each spring? Organizers such are GWN and TCBA could provide the service at a nominal fee, make a little money and keep everyone happy. I would pay $10-30 or about 10-25% of my original purchase price for ongoing maintenance\certification of my PFD. I want to use it, but also wouldn't mind having a good idea that it will work if I need it

I am not advocating anarchy and rolling the dice of death I just think there is a fair and equitable compromise that all could live with. I would hope that the Harbor Commission and the CCA would agree that this would make sense.

Cheers

Who are you referring to when you say CCA? Canadian Coast Guard is CCG. CCA could be Canadian Coaching Association of Canadian Canoe Association neither of whom have anything to do with this discussion. I just need some clarification so I can debate with you.

The Inflatables are Canadian Coast Guard approved.

Cheers

have these rules changed?