Perhaps your team currently only does the Island event or only the GWN event. Are you looking to do a little more?


Ideally, we are looking for paddlers (experience NOT essential) who are interested in making a long term commitment to 2 teams.

Team 1 (mixed) is looking for male athletes with goals of placing in the top 18 at TIDBRF and top 12 at the GWN Sept. event.

Team 2 (unisex) is an all women’s team with goals of preparing to race at the 2006 Club Crew race offs to be held this summer (date and place not set at this time)


Team 1 is partially sponsored and athletes will be expected to contribute a reasonable amount to ensure their commitment.

Team 2 is not currently sponsored and as such, athletes are expected to cover all costs at this time.

Both teams are based in the GTA area.
Winter training is based out of the Mississauga Canoe Club and continues until the end of April. (options are 1, 2 , or 3 times per week)
On water training will be based out of MCC until the end of April (weather permitting) and will move to GTDBC Sunnyside location starting the beginning of May until Sept 2005. (no options – practices are 2 times / week)

Coaches for these 2 teams this winter have been
Lead Coach – Derek Schrotter
Guest Coach – Larry Cain
Guest Coach / Strength Coach – Attila Buday
Guest Coach / Strength Coach – Tamas Buday Jr.
Guest Coach – Mac Hickox



For more information, please email me directly.

What a joke Club Crews are going to be if they let in any put together select teams that do not have ANY history of paddling together in previous years.

All the power to you in putting together you club Derek, but they should not be eligible to race as a crew this year. Don't care if it is within the written rules it is outside the spirit of what the Club crews were supposed to be all about.

This is no different than Pickering putting together their all star team. And so it begins. Will TCBA and GWN be far behind?

Race off predictions:

1, Paddle center all star team 1
2, Paddle center all star team 2
3, Paddle center all star team 3...

Well you get the point.

PS. I should mention that those are also the only entries because all the true Club Crew level teams can't be bothered at that point. My assumption based on what Larry and all have said is that the National Teams will not by contesting it. Otherwise slot them in number one and bump everyone else down one.

Hey X, I think you're going off half cocked here. This doesn't read like Derek is putting together an allstar team, at least on the mixed side. Sounds 12-18th place? An MCC allstar team would be Top 6 at the minimum, even with pure "filler" to round out the roster. So this isn't a Club Crew challenger, and he didn't even mention that it was going to enter the race-off.

The women's team on the other hand may just be what you're talking about, but unisex is fair game for all-star teams since we have not unisex "club" teams.

Peace.

He didn’t mention entering the mixed into the Club Crews, but that would be wrong also even if they finished last. It isn’t a competition thing, but a club crew program building thing.

Throw together teams, be they all-star or no-star are not club crews as they are purpose built for one reason and are not clubs crews like a Mayfair, IMPS or SCC (among many others). We all know the difference it isn’t rocket science.

And as for the Unisex thing, you are allowed to build a Unisex team from 2 (or I think it might be three) mixed club crews to solve this problem. You are NOT allowed to openly hold tryouts from 100’s of crews.

PS. As for the intensity of my posts on this subject you will have to forgive me as I feel strongly about building a healthy club crew program in Canada and all this BS is contrary to that end goal IMHO. We all know the intent and groups like Pickering are deliberatly trying to bypass, ignore or find loopholes for their own personal agendas and it really pisses me off.

HEY X U SUCK, And know nothing about building teams, that is why you have had NO success

X, what's the problem with what Derek is suggesting, as opposed to an established team holding open tryouts or going through a period of heavy turnover? For example (off the top of my head), I've heard the Piranhas have had a lot (>75%) of turnover this year; presumably they're going to make that up with experienced paddlers from other teams, rather than introducing new people into the sport and training them from scratch. Other top-20 ranked teams have held open tryouts in the last year or two where over half of the team was replaced with new paddlers. This seems like a normal part of any sport.

club crews from maintaining a roster, but rather to prevent all-star and throw together teams which are NOT club crews.

I would say that 75% turnover is a bit much in any event.

It will be interesting to see what is allowed. If they let all these throw together crews compete then that is all they will get next time around assuming that isn’t all they would get this time. Why would the other teams bother trying to build themselves instead of simply joining one of these groups? If Mayfair gets spanked by Pickering and TCBA do you think they will show up as Mayfair or GWN next time?

I say again, do you want to see 100 Club Crew level teams compete on a regular basis, driving and building the sport with maybe yearly championships or do you want to see 3-4 paddle centre and/or all star teams compete in each region every two years?

Its because x has a small brain, and he cannot fathom victory, (because he has never achieved it)

He wants everyone to be as crappy and miserable as him....

I think I like Pable, for some reason I just can't help myself.

As for competition surely you can see that I am in fact arguing FOR competition in the long run LOL.

Comments directed to the mixed team proposal:

Derek mentions that he and his coaching team are looking for a group of paddlers "for a long term commitment". And, more specifically, at team that will aim for approximately a 12-18 place finish in the biggest Ontario events.

IMO, X is really jumping to conclusions to say that he is looking to put together an elite team, at least insofar as the mixed crew is concerned.

Although Derek would not know me from a tree stump, I have met him breifly a couple of times and have had a chance to see at least a little of his honest commitment to dragonboating. I really believe that Derek and his team are looking for a few people who have been introduced to the sport on a recreational level, like it, are reasonably athletic and competitive, and would like to try participating on a more competitive team.

Frankly, there are a lot of good paddlers who have done exactly this is the past: myself, James P., paddlechx, etc. You know you're out there.

In fact, Derek is looking for the paddler I was 10 years ago -- and since then I've paddled in Hong Kong a few times, because I was lucky enough to be invited to try out for a team just like the one Derek's proposing. I'm retired from the sport now, but if I WAS 10 years younger and still interested in seeing what I could do in a dragonboat --- well, frankly, I would have already emailed Derek, because I like what he has done so far and would love to be part of a team under that coaching leadership.

So let's take a deep breath and not jump to conclusions. It may very well be that Derek and co just want to see what they can build from (nearly) scratch. I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt.

Hundreds of teams compete at the Island every year, even though nobody's been able to beat MCC (so far). So there are reasons to compete at a dragon boating event, other than to win.

I can't speak for mayfair, but I would admittedly be annoyed if the PDBC "all-star" team beat my team. However, if they are training together all year, and also racing together at several events, I don't think that being annoyed is enough reason to exclude them from the CC's.

As a scaled-down example, when I was racing on a university team, competing for the University Cup at the Island, the Piranhas were by far the best university team in Ontario. And once they had some success, it became a lot easier for them to recruit the best paddlers from other university teams, further increasing their dominance. But that still didn't stop other groups from entereing teams, because everyone has their own reasons for training and paddling:
-Some people trained harder, because they wanted to be good enough to paddle for them
-Some people trained harder, because they wanted to be good enough to beat them
-Some people didn't care who was the best, and just paddled to get in shape or socialize

Basically, I think that there's room to have a few all-star teams AND support a wide base of competiton at national competitions. I also think that dominance is cyclical, and a dedicated group of non-all-star paddlers could, over a period of years, train to be better than a thrown-together all-star team.

X seriously, what Have you accomplished? You seem to spend hours on the forum. Maybe you should spend that much time training.

There is a difference between a Coach asking for paddlers and a Club asking for paddlers.

the coach is representing the club. And many peole change clubs each year. Your club can have a 95% change rate and still be a club...so relax

You've touched upon an interesting point. You're accurate in that some people wanted to be on the team to win as Piranhas, and others wanted to train to beat us. Everything is so much about beating that other crew in the "upper-tier" (if you can call it that) that when we finally lose to superior competition, i.e. MCC or another gifted group of paddlers that shit hits the fan and we all get upset, ask for their heads, tell them to leave the sport, or create a new division.

Maybe the problem with this sport is that water conditions change, there's wash to contest with and no course is exactly the same, and of course the boats change from festival to festival. So competitive-minded individuals can only focus on egocentric goals like dominating their opponent because they feel it is the only measure of success. There's no solid way that teams can track their progress through times, like on a track. And even there, you have to take times with a grain of salt because you've got different track surfaces, wind info, etc.

From what I've seen this sport needs to be more task-oriented and far less ego-oriented. I see this on a grassroots/University level where coaches seem to motivate the kids solely by pitting teams against each other, and using dominance over others way too much as the primary motivator whereas uthe focus should really be on mastering a task, feeling a sense of accomplishment and gauging performance based on self-improvement. Having said that, there's a lot that people could learn from the recreational athletes in the sport.

Jason - Interesting point about task versus ego motivation. Because many people who start dragonboating (especially at the university level) have not done much organized sporting before, they're not used to being competitive with themselves. So in the absence of outside motivating factors like beating another team, they might not have the same drive to improve their skills and fitness. Also, the coaches are not necessarily creating this tension, but are just leveraging existing inter-college/faculty/university rivalries to get people excited about what they're doing.

One of the problems with tracking your progress as a dragon boater is that it's cost-prohibitive compared to (say) running. There's fitness testing, which is time-consuming and will only give a very general idea of how well a person will paddle. There's small-boat time trials, but then you have to rent boats, set up a course, and have timers, and is still not necessarily that accurate. If your coach has a GPS, then maybe during your dragon boat practice you can get two people at a time to paddle and measure the boat speed, but then you have 18 people sitting around doing nothing. So, especially as a recreational paddler, it's difficult to measure your progress in any meaningful way, and in the meantime, there's nothing wrong with some friendly rivalries to make things interesting and maybe get you some free beer too.

X - I forgot to bring this up earlier, but how is anyone ever supposed to start up a new team without being one of these "select teams that do not have ANY history of paddling together in previous years"? If I call up 20 buddies (who may or may not have any paddling experience) and I feel like racing with them at NACCC, should I be disallowed from participating just because we haven't been doing it together for years? This seems like the kind of thing we should have more of, not less of.

The same people talking about "the spirit of the rules" are also talking about boycotting the race if it has "all star teams". How about not worrying about who else shows up and enjoy the spirit of the sport and just race? Maybe I just don't take this sport seriously enough to get upset but really what's the big deal if 1 or 2 new teams get to race? It's not like they are guarenteed to win.

This year's NACCC will be the highest level competition in the world short of Berlin. Who would want to miss being a part of that? All the USA crews who want a shot at 2006 will be there. Every Ontario and Quebec based crew who even feels they even remotely belong in the game will be there. The question should be, who isn't coming?

"X - I forgot to bring this up earlier, but how is anyone ever supposed to start up a new team without being one of these "select teams that do not have ANY history of paddling together in previous years"?
- so you start up a new team, and as of that year you do not qualify as a "club crew". In your second year, you do. This way any team that wants to qualify for the club crews in 2006 must exist in 2004, and enter the race-off in 2005. Does that sound too long to you? Too bad. Real club crews don't exist one year and disappear the next. Those are called select crews. (like a national team, for instance)

"If I call up 20 buddies (who may or may not have any paddling experience) and I feel like racing with them at NACCC, should I be disallowed from participating just because we haven't been doing it together for years? "
- in short, yes. And no, we should not be encouraging more all-star crews to enter Club Crew competitions. What would be the point of entering a Club Crew if you're just going to get smacked down by the GTDBC All-Stars, the GWN All-Stars, the PDBC All-Stars, Golden Horseshoe Flatwater All-Stars, etc, etc.

I still don't think this is what Derek was trying to do here, but the reasons not to allow all-star teams into Club Crew events are clear. To me, at least.

Firstly, I don’t understand why I write one thing and people argue like I said something else.

To be clear, I never said that there was anything wrong with Derek starting up a couple of teams. That’s great. I am sure he will put together a very good program and that this will help develop more great paddlers. I am not being sarcastic I am serious. All the more power to him. I also never initially said anything about the mixed crew as he didn’t say they would be trying for the Club Crews.

Once someone argued that I was wrong to jump on him about it I reiterated this point. I also stated that a first year team, be they all-star or no-star should not be allowed to register for Club Crews as the initial intent was for ESTABLISHED Club Crews to compete.

Next year after Derek’s teams have raced together in 2006 then they should be more than welcome to do so. As much as it irks me, even the Pickering Teams put together this year would be allowed to race off next year (assuming there were club crew races in some form), but NOT this year as they were not yet in existence.

These points were nicely reflected by Not X as well. Sorry Sebastian, I don’t see any issues with your first year team having to wait a year to play with the Club Crew. The rule is kind of there to prevent all-star teams in the first place and if they are not an all-star team then they probably will need a year or two at least to get into position to play there anyway.

It should be noted that I think that they should be allowed to participate in the regatta and gain the experience, they just would not be eligible for one of the sanctions. I am not sure if this is possible or planned, but it may be an important point.

I still disagree with the whole paddle center all-star team thing which is really what bugs me about the Pickering thing.

It is simple. I would rather see 40-50 or even 100’s of Club Crews working to develop their programs and paddlers and have big competitive regattas than watch 4-5 paddle centre all-star teams compete. Is that so wrong? One has 100 paddlers training and competing at a higher lever and the other has thousands.

It’s about the development of the sport and YES, I do feel that these discussions have an impact. At the very least it makes people thing. Larry said so himself and he is in a position to really influence things. Whether his mind was changed or even needed changing, it at least sparked discussion and hopefully did so as well for others.

By the way, I don’t think that this is the race off for the US Club Crews so while I figure we will see some of them come up for the competition I am not sure we will see tons of them. Hope I a wrong.

"What would be the point of entering a Club Crew if you're just going to get smacked down by the GTDBC All-Stars, the GWN All-Stars, the PDBC All-Stars, Golden Horseshoe Flatwater All-Stars, etc, etc."

I could just as easily say what would be the point of entering Ontario Place (for example) just to get smacked down by Mayfair, Sudbury, Verdun, etc, yet 100+ teams do it anyway.

Anon above, why are you so dumb?

The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.
The talk is about CLUB CREWS.

Club crew competitions place restrictions on the participation.
Ontario place doesn't.

I understand that. I'm just saying it's not a good reason to not race just because you won't win.

"I could just as easily say what would be the point of entering Ontario Place (for example) just to get smacked down by Mayfair, Sudbury, Verdun, etc, yet 100+ teams do it anyway."

It's totally different.

You get beaten but other club crews, you go back to the drawing board, practice harder, and try again.

You get beaten by an all-star team that's been put together to dominate regular club teams, there's really no point. Nothing about your competitiveness has been learned except that you can be beaten by an all-star team. And since they're disbanded immediately afterwards anyhow, there's no point trying to beat them next time, as there is no next time.

I'm not saying that there's no point entering a regatta unless you can win. Most teams enter a regatta knowing they're NOT going to win, but they have the chance to compete against their peers and see how they've progressed. All-star teams destroy even this level of achievement.

"You get beaten by an all-star team that's been put together to dominate regular club teams, there's really no point. Nothing about your competitiveness has been learned except that you can be beaten by an all-star team. And since they're disbanded immediately afterwards anyhow, there's no point trying to beat them next time, as there is no next time."

That argument makes sense to me. I didn't see it that way because I believed the "all star" teams being talked about such as the Pickering team do not plan on disbanding after the race off.

"It should be noted that I think that they should be allowed to participate in the regatta and gain the experience, they just would not be eligible for one of the sanctions. I am not sure if this is possible or planned, but it may be an important point."

That's a good compromise. My thinking was, it would be unfair to deny a crew the opportunity to race there just because they're new, but this is a good way of giving people some experience (even if they get beaten by >30 seconds), while making it a little harder for last-minute stacked teams to steal a sanction.

Let me say again that the whole point of this is NOT a fear of competition, or loosing, but rather an argument FOR competition in the long run.

I am not afraid to loose, but I figure that most crews wouldn't mind a CHANCE to win however under fair and equitable circumstances with the people they have paddled with for years if they train hard and make sacrifices.

All-Star teams race off for a chance to go to the World Championships. There is already a venue and level of competition for them. Club Crews is NOT IT!

Club Crews are in place to develop Club Crew teams. Otherwise I guess they would have called them the All-Star Crew competitions or something.

Of course you are not afraid to lose X. Losing is so familar to you that you are used to it, you do not even know how it feels to win, you just want to bring everyone down with you.

School is almost over.
Expect lots of useless posts like the previous one.

These "winning at any cost" clowns are funny.
If you really want to win, what the fuck are you doing paddling dragonboats? Go pick a sport, individual sport, and go kick some ass.
Hiding in a group of 20 and bitching about others being losers is such a brave thing to do.

Hey X, ever been this tired? No? Well Dereck has and he knows what it takes, so why dont you grow up and just listen and learn

http://www.natalday.org/viewImage.php?id=5

Feathering! Bloody exciting stuff! Thanks, John Boy (you wanker).

John Boy, how come you didn't include this pic from that site?

how John Boy thinks that a picture of a War Canoe from 1961 means that Dereck (sp) is right and X is wrong. "Yeah, X that'll show you! Shut yer trap our I'll find an even older picture!" Boo-yah!

Firstly I doubt that John Boy knows me as I certainly am happy to say I have no idea who he is. I am pretty sure he isn't one of the respected members of the Paddling community he pretends to belong to that I know in any event.

That said, I will say again, I really do not see the need for goofs like John Boy to defend Derek against me since I have not in any way attacked Derek or what he is trying to do. In fact I seem to remember supporting it pretty consistently. If suggesting that his new club teams would need to exist for a year before they were eligible for Club Crew race off’s then I guess I was attacking him by your standards.

And yes surprisingly us Dragon Boaters do tend to leave it on the course as well so I feel like that picture after every race. Surprised you would even think that it was possible for that not to be the case. Maybe that was a personal reflection on yourself?

Or are you usually the one taking the pictures from shore? In any event, as several posters prior to this pointed out you need some work on your debating skills. Replying to my posts with “You Suck” somehow do not make for very compelling arguments. Calling into question the efforts I give in races are also not relevant to the topic at hand. Whether I am afraid too, or used to loosing are again, sadly completely irrelevant.

Please feel free to put some thought into it and tell us all why you think that throw together and/or all-star teams should be allowed to race Club Crews and how you feel that this will help develop Club Crew racing and competitive Dragon Boating in general across Canada in the long run?

I am guessing that your first reaction to the question is to answer “Who cares” which pretty much explains your position.

While we've all enjoyed the banter and photos, perhaps X and JB could continue their enjoyment in a completely new thread?

I agree. And it would be appreciated if racial remarks were felt out as well. Referring to the culturally challenged individual who posted at April 12 2005, 9:28 AM.

"we do not feel the need to censor people being bashed or swearing"..but the word ch*nk and we feel that it is necessary to remove it without saying anything, well screw you dragon boat rankings team. is the rankings team chinese or something?

 

We remove racial slurs.

It's a Chinese originated sport dirtbag!
Go say that at a regatta and see what kind of beating
you'll get.

Ignorant people

i can help you find a mask?

Winning is not everything, and if it is to you then you may be missing out on a lot of other things fun things that dragon boating provides and therefore you suck!

I for one absolutely love and understand the 1961 War Canoe pic...been there,done that!!!Awesome!

Is there not room for an objective evaluation of Intent here? April 8 2005, 4:25 PM


Comments directed to the mixed team proposal:

Derek mentions that he and his coaching team are looking for a group of paddlers "for a long term commitment". And, more specifically, at team that will aim for approximately a 12-18 place finish in the biggest Ontario events.

IMO, X is really jumping to conclusions to say that he is looking to put together an elite team, at least insofar as the mixed crew is concerned.

Although Derek would not know me from a tree stump, I have met him breifly a couple of times and have had a chance to see at least a little of his honest commitment to dragonboating. I really believe that Derek and his team are looking for a few people who have been introduced to the sport on a recreational level, like it, are reasonably athletic and competitive, and would like to try participating on a more competitive team.

Frankly, there are a lot of good paddlers who have done exactly this is the past: myself, James P., paddlechx, etc. You know you're out there.

In fact, Derek is looking for the paddler I was 10 years ago -- and since then I've paddled in Hong Kong a few times, because I was lucky enough to be invited to try out for a team just like the one Derek's proposing. I'm retired from the sport now, but if I WAS 10 years younger and still interested in seeing what I could do in a dragonboat --- well, frankly, I would have already emailed Derek, because I like what he has done so far and would love to be part of a team under that coaching leadership.

So let's take a deep breath and not jump to conclusions. It may very well be that Derek and co just want to see what they can build from (nearly) scratch. I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt.

remember that each World Championships has their aim for a certain type of participants.

My question is why is Derek forming the crew this year and not last year?

Club crew championships should be for crews who have been around for a while and only recruit from mouth to mouth, friend to friend, i.e.from within a common place of business, not from a broader platform commonly used to build elite crews.

The sport in this country has not yet evolved to the point where enough consistent crews exist to justify enforcing a rule such as this. Maybe in a couple of years. The first real national club championships was last year in Montreal. We need to balance the need for growth and buzz around NACCC and qualifying with trying to limit all-star crews. The 2pp rule is still there I should remind everyone and the IDBF will soon introduce their own restrictions for CCWC participation. DBC requires crews to participate together before the qualifying race. That's the balance for this year. I'm sure in 2007 the criteria will be more strict and crew roster databases will be available for referencing.

...want to keep guessing? Does it matter?

(And my apologies to Rob if he has been accused in person of the previous post).

I know who Rob Chang is, but I know him even less than I know Derek --- Derek I could pick out of a crowd; Rob, not so much.

Why would you think my hope of providing an objective, but positive evaluation must come from Rob? Do you think he is deliberatly being an apologist, or is it that my comments were so wise and reasoned that they must have come from a wise and reasoned person and Rob is the only one on this forum who fits your interpretation of that description. (Not mine; I happen to think there are almost as many intelligent contributors here as there are idiots -- ALMOST as many. ). Or is it that you are so close-minded that you will dismiss any comments that do not concur with your own because you are unable to debate them?

Whatever.

Not that it matters, as I feel no need to 'out' myself, but a clue from my previous post: I am retired from the sport (completely -- no paddling, coaching, managing, not even cheerleading).

The rules in place for qualifying as a club crew are roughly the same as for 2003. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. We have all had several years to prepare for the 2005 race offs knowing full well what the qualifications rules "should be".

Many teams have been preparing based on this and if they allow team to bypass these rules it would hardly be fair. Anyway, what DBC has posted seems pretty open for interpretation. Their latest notice on qualifying states that a team must have raced together in at least one qualifying event in the qualifying year PRIOR to the actual CC race off qualifying. (this was reduced from two races to one)

http://www.dragonboatcanada.org/documents/2006CCWCupdate.pdf

That said, I wonder if they will enforce the last year part or allow a race this year to qualify? If it is not a last years race then why even bother lol. You are not enforcing any kind of continuity, but rather simply forcing teams to do a warm up event with their hand picked stacked roster.

Requiring a race from last year will exclude Scotts pet team and since he is on the technical committee deciding all this I cannot see him agreeing to it so my guess is that we will see this years races count unfortunately. Hope I am wrong.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this pans out.