The other string is a bit off topic so I'll start a new one.

Yesterday, for the first time at this competition, time penalties were assessed to crews for wash riding. This took place for the Senior Mixed 500m Final which included Canada A & B. The lanes are 13.5 m wide and explicit instructions had been given to all crews to race in the centre of their lanes. The entire race was red flagged by both referee boats including both crews on either side of China which included one from Canada. Warnings were issued down the entire course to Canada. In the end the decision was to only penalize two crews whose performance did not put them on the podium so Canada went on to win Silver and Bronze.

The question really is: will the IDBF enforce the rule going forward or continue just to deliver time penalties to crews who they know will shrug off the three seconds?

Not really an issue today with the 200's but Sunday's 500's will be interesting.

As long as the USA or the Canadians or anyone else are following the rules then it should not matter where they are in their lane centre or otherwise. There is a rule and it says to stay 2 meters away from the other lane I think.

Senior Open 1000m Final:

1. China - Gold - 3:55.47
2. Canada A (GWN) - Silver - 4:03.96
3. Canada B (SNP) - Bronze - 4:04.68
4. Russia - 4:05.17
5. USA - 4:07.39
6. Italy - 4:08.24

...compare that to:

Premier Open 1000m Final:
1. Russia - Gold - 3:53.34
2. Czech - Silver - 3:54.37
3. United States - Bronze - 3:56.84
4. Germany - 3:58.66


If the China Senior Open team had entered in the Premier Open division, it would have displaced the USA from third place. And considering that China was EIGHT SECONDS ahead at the finish, it's reasonable to assume that they could have gone faster if challenged.

Yes there is a rule and I'm not 100% up on it but suffice to say that Canada's Team Leader or any other Team Leader would strongly protest any time penalty if given contrary to official rules. The problem with IDBF rules is that they always qualify themselves by saying that the officials have the final say. So if a Canada crew is 2.1 metres shy of the buoy line and gets flagged and penalized it becomes a difficult argument to win especially if all crews have been told expressly to stay in the middle of the lane and particulary if an offical has cautioned the Canada team leader regarding the behaviour of his crews. So all we can do is tell our crews to be careful where you situate yourselves in the 500's tomorrow.

On a side note I saw today an official survey (sounding) of the regatta course from 2002. The course is 4 metres deep and this depth is remarkably consistent. So with that sort of depth there is some wash to be had but not like a 2-3m deep race course. Best to race your race down the centre to avoid any controversy or questions about crew performance, has been my advice.

Yeah whats up with the Chinese Senior dominance as it appears? Is this a surprise or was this expected?

I haven't seen an official points tally, but it looks fair to say that the Russian team takes home the Nations Cup. It was a good run for Canada, and no shame, but it's time to pass it on. Congrat's, Russia.

Aside from losing the Nations Cup, what an incredible job by our Canadian team as a whole. In every racing class we have hardware to show for our efforts. From Junior to Premiere to Senior, that was quite a medal haul. I'm a very proud Canadian paddler.

And not to single any group out, but what can you say about our Ladies? The Triple crown; Gold, gold and gold. Amazing. This has to go down as one of the most dominating performances in the history of the sport. Way to go!

By now I hope you're all happily plastered at some celebration party somewhere in Berlin. Great job, and get home safe.

Cheers.

"If the China Senior Open team had entered in the Premier Open division, it would have displaced the USA from third place. And considering that China was EIGHT SECONDS ahead at the finish, it's reasonable to assume that they could have gone faster if challenged."

The above was obviously written by someone who knows little about racing and has a chip on their shoulder about the USA team. Last year the USA senior time in the 1000 beat Canada's open team time, your logic means the US Seniors last year were faster than the best Canadian team. Give the time comparison crap a rest, the finals were an hour apart on a variably windy day. The same Chinese senior team raced the 500 last year after their younger team performed poorly, they were beaten in the minor final by the US open team. This year the US will put their bronze on the shelf next to last year's gold in the 1000. The US team had to replace 8 paddlers from last year's winning boat and raced this year with 7 Seniors in the starting line up. The 1-3 finish two years apart is a respected accomplishment. Whiners and winners, the story of this forum, we know which side the above poster sits on.

Racing conditions varied widely during the entire competition. Euro weather is like that. One minute it was completely calm and 5 minutes later a huge downpour with blustering headwinds. No way you could compare times from one race at 1:00 PM to even the very next race at 1:05 PM. USA crews raced well all weekend and had their ups and downs just like the Canada crews. Even China senior mixed were defeated once, contrary to most expectations. This was racing at its very best. The USA finish in the last 50m in the 500m Premier Open final was impressive indeed.

Most impressive performances in my view:

1. Canada Premier Women - Gold medal sweep
2. Russia Premier Open - Gold medal sweep
3. China Senior Women - Gold medal sweep
4. China Senior Open - Gold medal sweep

Canada again rides on the back of the Open Women's crew. Alot of credit should go to them. They have a solid program where BOTH flatwater and dragonboat paddlers train together as a TEAM. Something that is not seems by the Men's Open. There are more satisfied in getting any f/w paddler who is available.

The women have made a conscience effort to raise money for the Worlds, where I have little from the guys.

Women
- Poker night
- Paddling Clinic
- Raffle

Men
- Raffle (riding on the women's idea)

To Anon post Aug 9 6:16am

I think the earlier post was just to comment that the China Senior team had a time comparable to the Premier division ... not as a slur against the USA premier team. Just a comment of how fast they are, especially given the 8 second lead over the other senior crews.

But as Mike K pointed out, can't compare against another race due to weather conditions. Good point.

USA open outperforms the Canadian team. How low can Canada go?

USA open over Canada in 3 of 4 events.

Just like the suggestion was made that maybe should have their Sr. men participate in the open division, maybe the same should be said with the Canadian open. lol.

Here is my unofficial calculation of the Nations Cup Points totals.

The way I think it works is that you get points in rerverse order of finish plus a 4,2,1 bonus for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. ie. 1st of 10 gets 10+4=14, 2nd gets 9+2=11, 3rd gets 8+1=9, 4th gets 7, 5th gets 6, etc.

By this count, Russia wins with Canada 2nd and USA 3rd.

Plc … Country … Pts
1 … Russia … 102
2 … Canada … 89
3 … USA … 60
4 … Macau … 47
5 … Germany … 41
6 … GB … 39
7 … Czech Rep … 33
8 … Australia … 29
9 … Italy … 24
10 … Phillipines … 22
11 … Switzerland … 10
12 … Japan … 6
13 … Hungary … 5
14 … Netherlands … 3
15 … Norway … 1


One weird thing I noticed is, where was the German Women's team? Did they boycot the event?

For those interested in looking at the complete unofficial table (both of you) copy and paste the following into Excel, and then use the Data, Text to Columns function using "Space" as the delimiter. If you know what I'm talking about, it's easy.


. . Open . . Women . . Mixed . .
. . 200 500 1000 200 500 1000 200 500 Points
1 Russia 14 15 14 10 10 8 16 15 102
2 Canada 11 10 4 13 13 13 13 12 89
3 USA 5 12 9 5 5 5 9 10 60
4 Macau 6 5 3 6 6 6 8 7 47
5 Germany 7 8 7 . . . 11 8 41
6 GB 4 4 5 8 8 10 . . 39
7 CzechRep . . 11 4 3 3 6 6 33
8 Australia 3 3 1 2 4 4 7 5 29
9 Italy 2 6 2 3 2 2 4 3 24
10 Phillipines 9 7 6 . . . . . 22
11 Switzerland . 1 . . . . 5 4 10
12 Japan . . . 1 1 1 2 1 6
13 Hungary . . . . . . 3 2 5
14 Netherlands 1 2 . . . . . . 3
15 Norway . . . . . . 1 . 1

"AGAIN rides on the back of the women's crew"??? Last year in Shanghai the guys won a gold and 2 silvers to the women's gold, bronze and fourth. In Poland the girls won one of each while the guys won a gold and finished 5 or 6th twice. In Philly the guys swept all three. Don't make the guys out to be the chumps you are making them.

Undoubtedly the girls were a great team composed of both flatwater athletes and athletes from other backgrounds. There dominating performance was one for the ages. The guys had more paddlers from a non-flatwater background this year as well. Given their choice the guys would probably take a crew entirely from among the best flatwater guys they could get. When they do that they have great success. Both teams, women and men, have found successful formulas in recent years and know what works for them. To say the men's approach should be just like the women's is stupid.

As for fundraising, undeniably the women are more active and do a better job than the guys. The guys should get more organized in this regard. However the reason some of the bodies the men would have liked to have had weren't available wasn't just because of funding but also because of the timing of the event relative to the flatwater worlds and nationals.

The idiots on this forum expose themselves with statements that trash a team because they didn't win, compare times from one race to the next, or speak in absolute terms about about a crew or team being great or lousy based on the results of one regatta. Great crews at the world level are consistently in the mix and on the podium. I'd say that makes the Canadian men a great crew that had an off year by their standards. However when you consider the composition of the team compared to Shanghai and the way they bounced back from the 1000m, their results were excellent. Clearly the Americans are a great crew as well as they have been on the podium the last three worlds as well. All of the athletes in all the crews you are discussing and often trashing have certainly done enough to earn our respect. It's shameful the way some of you treat them on this forum.

Kudos to the Canadian women and Russian men for their dominating performances this year.

Well said.

One of our Stratford paddlers said that Canada won the Nations Cup. Is that right and if so why is it contrary to these posts?

I think you'll find Russia won the Nations Cup, and China won the Senior
Cup.

The Russians won all the Open Finals, while Canada won the Open Women's
That left the fight in the mixed which will have put them in a better position.

<<Whiners and winners, the story of this forum, we know which side the above poster sits on.>>

Hey coach, is that why you blamed and publicly blasted your drummer for losing one of the senior races even though it was your strokeman -- and BROTHER, coincidentally -- who gave the order to slow down the rate? Talk about a whiner...

Russia won all the Open AND all the Mixed, and had two silvers and a bronze in the Women's.

I love the defensive response from the USA guy (coach?) earlier today. The guy wins medals and still calls people names. But the fact remains that ALL THREE of the Chinese Senior Open team' finals times were faster than almost EVERY Premier Open team's times -- and not just the USA's either. Considering that the Premier and Senior Open finals took place within minutes of each other, what are the chances that the Chinese Senior Open team got a decisive weather advantage in EVERY final?

The Chinese Senior Open team was probably the second or third best team in Berlin last week. That's not a knock against the USA, Canada, or anyone else. It's just giving credit to the awesome talent of the Chinese team -- on which no one was under 40.

"Hey coach, is that why you blamed and publicly blasted your drummer for losing one of the senior races even though it was your strokeman -- and BROTHER, coincidentally -- who gave the order to slow down the rate? Talk about a whiner..."

Hmmm, a coach has a post race strategy discussion with a veteran (and prior World Champion) drummer and the stroke paddler outside the team tent with 3-4 other folks listening in and this is an inappropriate "public blasting". It gets posted anonymously here typical of this forum. Another poster who lacks the courage to identify themselves when personally attacking someone. Sadly it is someone connected to Team USA. Please identify yourself, if you have the courage to do so, in order that we can know your biases prior to continuing.

2:57 Excellent post .Too bad you are surrounded with a bunch of children.

who do you think those people are, out of curiosity who are exposing themselves?

"Here is my unofficial calculation of the Nations Cup Points totals.

The way I think it works is that you get points in rerverse order of finish plus a 4,2,1 bonus for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. ie. 1st of 10 gets 10+4=14, 2nd gets 9+2=11, 3rd gets 8+1=9, 4th gets 7, 5th gets 6, etc.

By this count, Russia wins with Canada 2nd and USA 3rd.

Plc … Country … Pts
1 … Russia … 102
2 … Canada … 89
3 … USA … 60"

The US needs to thank their youth more so than the Open team, they won 5 medals, best in the US. Way to go! The US may have very well have performed better had the coach not screwed the Masters, once again, by simply focusing his efforts on the Open team. He took guys oput of the Senior finals to focus on Open finals. Guess he does not understand the importance to the Nations cup and the big picture.

How many went from the US to World? Only 25 from the Open matter? What's wrong with that?

Actually if the U.S. coach took guys off the senior team to boost the Premiere Open team then he understands the Nations Cup exactly .

The Nations Cup is based solely upon Premiere Open, Women and Mixed in the 200m, 500m, and 1000m. Juniors don't count at all, and Seniors count towards the Senior Cup. Well, all medals count to your entire medal count, if that's important to you (and it should be).

Canada for instance will probably lead the world in overall medals, especially given our preformance at the Senior level with 2 competitive teams in each class taking home medals. But we won neither the Nations Cup nor the Senior Cup.

Those children are MB and his supporters. Time to whip out scapel!

"Hey coach, is that why you blamed and publicly blasted your drummer for losing one of the senior races even though it was your strokeman -- and BROTHER, coincidentally -- who gave the order to slow down the rate? Talk about a whiner..."

Hmmm, a coach has a post race strategy discussion with a veteran (and prior World Champion) drummer and the stroke paddler outside the team tent with 3-4 other folks listening in and this is an inappropriate "public blasting". It gets posted anonymously here typical of this forum. Another poster who lacks the courage to identify themselves when personally attacking someone. Sadly it is someone connected to Team USA. Please identify yourself, if you have the courage to do so, in order that we can know your biases prior to continuing."


McNamara, McNamara, McNamara, when are you going to learn. As long as you are as paranoid as you are of those around you and continue to kick anyone who has a thought that differs with your's off the team, there is no way anyone will ever identify themselves.

We like it this way. We will just talk about you selfish behavior behind your back with one another, as we have been, while continuing to race. Selfish behavior that cost our team dearly across the board.

Your little scalpel reference was a nice touch. Proves how you think. Not a bad idea for a guy who cares nothing about the back bone of our program in Philly and the PDBA and everything about winning with guys who can care less about us. Where are all those guys we gave our medals up for when it comes to Nationals? Think they care?

BOOOO!

By the way, private conversations are not those everyone hears. That is known as public humiliation.

"Post race strategy discussion with a veteran (and prior World Champion) drummer and the stroke paddler outside the team tent"

"Hmmm" Not the way we all saw it, more like finger pointing, a lot of yelling and blaming after you pulled the plug on our chances. Thanks for doing that, You really are a whiner.

Way to go! You must feel good about yourself.

Thanks for proving your lack of courage by remaining anonymous, enough said, thread not worth continuing, you opinion not worth another thought. Got a team of dedicated Philly paddlers to coach in NYC and Welland.

read what was said above A-hole.

WHAT? No responce to how people look at you? You screwed our team and you have the balls to tell us end of thread? Buck up and become accountable for your questional actions!

Got a team of dedicated Philly paddlers to coach in NYC and Welland.


Did that same dedicated team show up in Flushing? Hmmm, guess not!

To those of you pinheads who find it entertaining to bash, enjoy your time in the spotlight while you still can, as you are ruining a fine forum - and soon the forum with simply consist of posters like you talking to yourself! As readers know no coach is good enough for this forum.

"Did that same dedicated team show up in Flushing? Hmmm, guess not!"

That's funny as shit!