Okay, without trying to start a war here I think it would be cool to talk about what Canada's National Dragon Boat teams have done well, and what they could do better.

I don't think you can always take the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach, because if you didn't win the Nations Cup, then it's broken. Only Russia can claim that their program was truly successful because THEY WON the Nations Cup. Even then, their Women's team could also stand improvement, and I highly doubt that they will rest on their laurels with a double silver + sinlge bronze performance. They like to win too much to sit still. We shouldn't sit still, either.

What do you think our teams have done well this past 3-5 years, and what could they do better?

It ain't broke, just underfunded so start collecting your nickels now.

If the Championships aren't back to back to back three years in a row, we probably take the Nations Cup again.

It will just be all the sweeter when we take it back next time around.

Just because Russia won the Nations Cup doesn't mean our system is broken. Sport at that level is always close and fiercely contested. You quite literally can't win all the time. Knee jerk, panicked reactions to defeat and change for changes sake are not prudent. First you have to carefully ascertain if things are infact "broken". Only then, if your answer is that yes, things are broken, should you change.

I would suggest here that our teams don't do well because of our "system". We don't have one. We don't have a national federation that puts any money into the national team program either. What we do have is an extremely dediciated, enthusiastic, committed, and knowledgeable pair of coaches in Blake and Doug and a group of unbelieveable athletes. We've also got a tremendously well developed and very successful flatwater canoe club system in Canada and a growing and steadily improving dragon boat club crew system for them to draw their athletes from.

I would suggest the way to win the Nations Cup in Australia in 2007 is to keep Doug and Blake interested in competing at the worlds and to provide them and their athletes a little bit of funding that can help in both their on going crew training and in just getting them to the world championships. The timing of the worlds is likely going to be such that our best flatwater athletes will be available, and our club dragonboaters will be two years better so there should be deeper stronger crews in the men's races in particular. I'd say just stand back and let them do what they know how to do and I am confident that they can retake the Nations Cup.

Interesting to note,

for the first time, blake opened up his team when he accepted 6 women from the MTL team. Although his first choice was probably flatwater women who he couldn't have, the result was that he was forced to broaden his program and look at purely trained dragon boaters. The women won 3 gold medals.

Suggesting that flatwater paddlers will fuel the team for the future to come is very short sighted. 4 years ago any canoe club could beat any DB team. Today, only the best athletes assembled from the biggest canoe clubs still dominate.

More time, more knowledge, better training techniques. Slowly but surely, dragon boating is stumbling foreward. I would hope that team canada's future coaches be innovative and not rely on today's system.

Actually, Blake has never relied on flatwater girls like the men have relied on flatties. Infact I think you'll find that the Montreal women didn't displace a single flattie from their spot.

I would agree that dragon boat paddlers from backgrounds other than flatwater have improved. To the point you suggest? No. I'm sorry, but I'm just being honest. It's funny. You guys want to win, yet you also want the crews composed the way you think it is best. I'd hope the coaches continue to do what they think is best, and if it is using flatties and it's short sighted then so be it. Their job is to win. Period. They are very competitive and they want to win badly. They have a system in place already (flatwater) pumping out great paddlers with high skill levels. If they think that helps them let them use it. I don't think we should charge them with the task of looking after development of dragon boat as well. I thought that's what the idea of the club crew worlds was, hence the rules we've created that bar the bulk of the premier paddlers from competing.

anon 9:25 well written.

I was just thinking that there had to be more to it than funding. Agreed that better funding would make the program more successful for a number of reasons. Agreed also that the current group of volunteers and dedicated athletes are doing a GREAT job under current conditions. BUT, I don't agree that status quo, with few more bucks thrown at it is the only way to go.

My belief is that the Open team can learn a bit from the way the Women's team was run. I think that their program created a better team out of the available pool of athletes.

I expect to be told that this isn't possible for a muriad of reasons.

Oh well, good luck in Sydney.

There's no reason the men couldn't do it exactly the same way as the women if that was deemed the best way. Basically the only differences between the two were:

- Women had more athletes from more varied backgrounds than men

- Women had a few weekend long training camps focussing on paddling and team building

- Women trained more regularly in dragonboat

- Women were more active and organized fundraising

They might move a little in the direction the women did but here's why I wouldn't expect them to copy the women's approach and don't think they ought to.

- There are many more men available from a flatwater background than women. The need to look outside for athletes is less and the athletes they get from flatwater consistently score higher in all the testing (including OC1) than the others. If they get the athletes they really want there is no reason to look elsewhere.

- More of the men are married with families than the women and less likely available (or would tolerate) the training camps that the women did. Additionally more of the men have other high level paddling commitments. The fact that most are very experienced, high level flatwater athletes means they are pretty good at coming together quickly. Everyone understands what Doug wants technically and their background of paddling well together in crews like war canoe, C4 and C2 means they have excellent team boat skills. Generally they can come together as a team more quickly than the women. Also they all know each other well already and the need for "team building" just isn't there.

- As for training more regularly in dragon boat, see the part about other paddling commitments above. If the guys get the bodies they want they all train 2x/day on the water anyway. A lot of the girls don't train that hard or frequently and therefore need the extra water time in dragon boat. It should be noted that closer to the competition the guys usually train as frequently in dragon boat as the girls.

- Regarding fundraising the guys absolutely have to be more like the girls.

The above is all predicated on years like 2004 when the flatwater schedule meant the guys got most of the athletes they hoped for. In a year like this one just finished they spent more time training together than usual as it was required. The guys did an amazing job in Berlin and their results, given the number of new, inexperienced guys were fantastic. They showed a lot of character bouncing back so well from a disappointing 1000m.

I should add that Blake and Doug work together pretty closely. I am sure they share information and ideas. Despite the fact that the men's and women's crews train differently, I wouldn't necessarily say that they are two distinct and separate programs as that suggests their is never any collaboration between the two.

What about the juniors, they performed really well and took home the jr world cup. Congrats juniors! As for all the other teams they did exceptionally well and had fantastic times!!! Congratulations all Canadian Teams!!!

the reason canada didn't win the nations cup is because they had two much dragonboaters and not enough flatwater people. Face it the last two years before berlin the reason they won is because they had no dragonboaters.

Putting a group of dragonboaters together from different teams never works because everyone paddles different. IN flatwater they all paddle exactly alike making them the ultimate team

I can see the point of the last poster.
Good point. There does exist a diversity of styles in DB.

Flatwater would just be another discipline. But yes it does make sense what you say if the whole boat was the same.



I would equate this in equivalency to all European hocky players are adept at a more open skating style. Versus NorthAmerican having Western Junior Hockey upbring being Grinder style.
Quebec MJH scoring style
Ontario MJH being a little of both.

another silly flattie trying to stir the pot. some dumbass juvie paddler no doubt. but what the hell, I'll bite.

the men's team had enough flatties to fill the boat in Berlin, so dragon boat paddlers were not the problem.

there were plenty of dragon boat paddlers in the women's boat, and they were triple gold.

the mixed team took the best flatties of the men and women plus a few dragon boat women, and they were double silver.

hmmm.....

three racing classes, different proportions of flattie vs dragon boater, and guess which class had the best medal count?

still not following, you high school dropout? let me spell it out:

men = all flatties = one silver, one bronze
mixed = mostly flatties = two silver medals.
womens = mix of flatties and dragon boaters = triple gold.

so who was the problem here? think about it, you might just figure it out.

The women's team had very few pure dragon boat paddlers. The core of that group is flatwater. And several of the Montreal women padddle for Pointe Claire canoe club.

dragged in again.
Some actual facts

1 - the men's crew did not have enough flatties as someone ignorantly stated

2 - most importantly, being a "flattie" at some time in your youth does not automatically make you an effective dragonboater.

3 - Only 4 athletes returned from the Berlin crew, a total of 7 had ever raced at a previous DB Worlds.

7 athletes out of a roster of 26 leaves alot of inexperience. The "senior" guys of the crew knew that this was going to be a developmental year. Just as someone showed us the way over a decade ago, it was now our turn to share some of our experience with this new group.

We made a few mistakes in the 1000 semi and as a result of that missed the final. We learned from this, shared what we had to do and bounced back to win 2 medals as well as help the mixed boats to 2 medals as well.

The girls performed perfectly and came home with 3 golds to show. But please don't compare girls versus open or open versus senior or whatever versus whatever. Each category has it's own strengths and weaknesses. To compare any against each other is like doing time controls on different rivers on different days and mailing your times in. It just doesn't work that way.

For Canada to consistently perform well, speaks volumes about the coaches of ALL programs.

If festivals started kicking in just 10% of their festival revenues imagine what we could do then.

You know what, maybe 10% is just too much. I typed in 100 crews at $1200 an entry = $120 000.00 That's 12G to support ALL programs of DBC at WORLDS (not clubs).


I used the above numbers as an rough example of what GWN might have to pay based on last weekend and that seems a little high, especially since GWN runs multiple events.

Maybe 5% from GWN, 22Dragons, Paddlesport, TCBA, Lively Dragons, etc, etc, etc. and you can see the war chest that DBC could have to support teams that represent Canada at the Worlds.

Dreaming???

You jump back in to the debate pretty quickly when something bugs you, but how come you never say anything when someone writes garbage like:

"the reason canada didn't win the nations cup is because they had two much dragonboaters and not enough flatwater people."

It's okay to crap on dragon boat paddlers I guess.


I understand the point you make, that with better funding we could ensure that the best paddlers are able to attend the world championships regardless of their background .

Okay I added that last bit, but that's what I'm hoping a guy like you would say. Seems you only defend paddlers who come from a sprint/flatwater paddling background and ignore any of the stuff they say when THEY start the latest war of words.

Question for you: If there's such a schism between flatwater and dragon boat padlders, if "flatties" hate dragon boaters so much then why do I want to put a single penny in their pockets, let alone 5 pennies?

Nice thought Derek.
So who will run the program ??
Mac already is charging enough.

Mac has nothing to do with the premier division. Our seniors do really well at the worlds but their points don't count towards the nations cup. Any hardware they receive are strictly for bragging rights and if you're will ing to pay for it, that's your choice.

It's a nice thought that event organisers might contribute some part of their entry fees to support a national program but I don't know how interested festival participants are in funding something that's only distantly related to what they're doing every weekend.

I for one would expect a lot more transparency and accountability in team organization if I was chipping in 5% of my entry fee towards the cause and I'm speaking as a fan.

Dragonboaters already contribute tons of money to all sorts of charities. Groups like the Rotary Club and Big Sisters are well run and you can be confident that your money is being put to good use (and if you have questions, the information is publicly available). Can/could we say the same about the national team(s)?

National Team is not a charity and doesn't ask to be treated as one. There's no reason for the weekend warrior to contribute to the national team but there's a lot of discussion/criticism of the program on this forum. That's what this is - a discussion about why the team performed the way the did and ways to ensure top level athletes in the future.
Derek's suggestion was just one of several hypothetical solutions. Currently there is no funding so it's up to the individual athletes to demand an account of where the money's spent. Obviously, if a fund were set up it would be administered and accounts kept (probably by DBC unfortunately. An organization that is inherently flawed).

I believe you are guilty of what you accuse me of doing
ie. jumping into the debate without reading everything.


read point # 2

2 - most importantly, being a "flattie" at some time in your youth does not automatically make you an effective dragonboater


I really don't buy into this dragonboater versus flattie thing, although I will suggest to you that you get your facts straight.

Historically, ex COMPETITIVE (by this I mean people who have represented Canada in sprint canoe) have outperformed the "average dragonboater" in all dryland testing.


Re charities and funding

Is the money better spent with charities?
Of course.

Do you think that the revenue generated from your entry fee goes to charity? Let me guess, this is your first year and because you read the PR package, you believed it.

Even at events like GWN teams are encouraged to raise pledges for a certain cause. NOT ENTRIES
I think even TCBA claims to donate to United Way? I think I saw their table their one year and people pledged money.

But to complicate things, do not confues with events run by Rotary clubs where a portion of the entry fee may in fact work its way into the charities.

Should you give money to DBC to promote the sport through excellence? Could be debated for days and still no concrete answer. But understand you can't have it both ways, complaining about OTHER PEOPLE'S performance but not helping out in a postive way.

Derek, i didn't accuse you of jumping into the argument without reading it or understanding it. i said that you quickly jump in to defend sprint paddlers but i have never read you jump down the throat of anyone who spouts anti-dragon boat paddler crap.

as for this...

"Historically, ex COMPETITIVE (by this I mean people who have represented Canada in sprint canoe) have outperformed the "average dragonboater" in all dryland testing."

never argued against this either, the facts speak for themselves. not my argument.

Hmm, looks like "x" is back...

Once again, the term "flattie" is silly and rude and marks you as someone who thinks the forum is a good source of information. Scary.

It's quite simple. Get funding and put the best paddlers in the boat and you will win. There are plenty of paddlers in Canada who can kick the living butt out of every country that goes to Worlds. For Example, Larry Cain should have been in the Berlin boat. Funding would get him to worlds so one of Canada's best can represent, race, and bring home Gold medals.

This is stupid. Why should anyone who paddles in a dragon boat pay for our national team? Derek, you want dragon boat paddlers to pay your trip to Berlin? Are you kidding me? Take a step back for a second. The world Dragon boat championships aint the Olympics where the absolute elite athlete competes and people pay to watch. The dragon boat worlds is still a collection of has-beens and middle aged people having fun (yes they are fit and train hard but NOTHING like an Olympic athelet).

So if the Canadian team was funded it could get better athletes to go to worlds, everyone would agree.

Is it important for Canada to send it's best team, absolutely not. If Canada did not win the Nations cup NOTHING would change. ASk the average dragonboater what the nation's cup is and thry will ask you where the beer tent is.

I hope that everyone that gets to go to worlds has a great time but please don't expect others to pay for it because it's just not that important (sorry to burst your bubble)

Spend money on real amateur athletes in Olympic disciplines, not on people who train for fun and race in a fringe sport (yes it a fringe sport).

Try to follow the concept of the point I was making

You can't (shouldn't) sit on this forum posting on ways that Canada should improve it's selection or performance unless you are prepared to contribute in some positive manner.

Would funding (does not have to be 100%) improve Canada's performance?

Yes


Should the companies that profit from the sport of dragonboat contribute to this funding as opposed to charging race fees to qualify?

Yes (imho)


Could this money be better spent in our society?
Already answered, yes


For you to think that increased funding would somehow benefit my personally shows how little you actually know.

That's how flatwater works. Every paddler registers with CCA, that money goes to help about 30 athletes. Good-yes, we are one of the top contries and the best athletes represent canada. DB is a joke when it comes to this.

Derek

What one team paid $4000 to race at team trials?

Wouldn't it be great if events could be organized for free. Considering CCA is sponsored by the govt (my tax dollars), and most local clubs are sponsored by municipalities (my tax dollars), no matter who holds the event we end up paying for it.

The bottom line is for profit and non-profit are both paid for by the end user through one way or another. Don't for one second think that non-profit bodies are saving anyone money.

Most sprint clubs do not get $$ from the municipalities. And if they do, their club fees are usually much less that those that don't.

Yes, the gov't is putting money into paddling, but we are one of the top sports in the country. DB has the numbers, but not the status...yet. It could get there, but work needs to be done first. CCA did not get there in a few years.