I would love to see times. anyone know where they might appear?

I would like to see a full depiction of the NACCC results based on 500M and 200M results. Who wants to try that one.

who were the biggest positive and negative surprises.

Surprises
Hammerheads - Solidifies their claim as a legit top cream of the crop crew. Few can beat them and all must treat them seriously.
Piranhas Beach - Solid finish in the 500m and beat some favourites. I learned this weekend they have never trained with a full boat this year yet and are almost all new paddlers. A team to look out for in the future for sure.
Telus - Fast team that was in the thick of things among the second tier A division

Disappointments
Imperial Dragons - sneaks into 500m final through protest and was a non-factor for the title the whole weekend
Philly - No titles for for the US national team against "easier" club crew competition. If Philly is out in force, it is no longer the juggernaut it thinks it is
Tempest - Misses the 500m top 12.
Verdun - Disappointing 500m finish for a "contender" crew

Montreal is looking to be a battle. Wongs appear to be in the driver's seat for this one with Imperial Dragons, Hammerheads, Verdun and Piranhas looking to steal the show.

Disappointments:

-Fabricated times
-Hand timed races
-Refusal to show video replays or photos of the finish

Never going to a USDBF officiated event again. This "sport" is a joke.

If you are handtiming and the head official admits that the times are not exact, then you CANNOT set up the preliminary A/B divison qualifiers based on TIME.

Got a sandwich and a bottle of water instead?

BTW - what's the break down of the $50 per paddler entry? I'd like to know how much goes to the DBC and how much to the organizers (Welland group?) and how much to GWN (boats)? Some of my team mates have been asking why so high of an entry fee ($1500 for a team of 30).

Don't know if this was the case all through the event but my steerer pickup on the boats within our heat were not all the same.

"BTW - what's the break down of the $50 per paddler entry?"

I'm curious, nobody in charge is really obligated to divulge this information, are they? After all, when we shop at the sony store, or go to the Ex or the movies, do we have any right to know "where the money goes?". Its upto us to pay if what we believe we are getting is worth the money. If not, shop elsewhere. Or are there special laws just for events such as NACCC?

"Refusal to show video replays or photos of the finish"

I believe some of the enthusiasts taking footage at the line would easily back up the accuracy of placement for the races. (Not timing however).

<<Philly - No titles for for the US national team against "easier" club crew competition. If Philly is out in force, it is no longer the juggernaut it thinks it is>>

For the last two seasons, philly, as a whole, was no longer the US national team. Yes, they won the U.S. Nationals in Iowa last year, but much of the team has left and the "national" team has been comprised of about half of non-philly guys. So when philly tries to field its own team these days, it's not so great anymore.

The 2k races were redone with typical GWN style. Just done, no reason, no explanation - just redone!

The philly guys were still strong enough to take the open

Philly Open barely took the OPEN.

Don't get your britches too tigthly wound up "barely beating us" crew. We will always beat you when it counts the most. Remember to back it up your talk next year if you have the gumption to show up.

Enough with the Philly bashing - who cares?

It seems every 2nd thread gets infected with what is obviously the obsession of one or two people with bashing Philly. I don't get it.

We raced them, seemed like a decent bunch of people, whatever.

Please move on. i really don't care what a few screwed up people have with their particular unhealthy obsessions/missions.

There is already a Philly bashing thread so stick with that and let the rest of the relatively normal group of people have discussions on other topics.

It's almost as bad as the OC1 obsession from last year.

sheesh

True?

NACC event, right? Qualifier for the world's, right? ..and race officials were volunteers!?

...Philly gets bashed: "Don't get your britches too tigthly wound up 'barely beating us' crew. We will always beat you when it counts the most. Remember to back it up your talk next year if you have the gumption to show up."

No class.

C'mon, don't pretend to be surprised when the americans behave like...well, americans.

As a team that paid a sport crew registration and the individual paddler registration to DBC and therefore are DBC members, just want to know if any of that $50 entry goes to DBC? In the past the entry fee went to the event and a portion went to DBC but not sure this time since we paid a fee at the beginning of the season. I understand that GWN isn't going to supply their services for free and there are expenses incurred for the running a race. The initial sport crew events were cheaper than festivals. Sport races now are just another high priced festival.

I've seen conflicting posts about the resuls on this thread. First, somone posted that Philly came in third in the 500, but a philly guy said they actaully won the Open. What are the official results?

Philly did come in third, in the Premier Mixed.

I heard that the "pricing" was basically set by the IDBF or the way they run the World's or Festivals. When you go to any world's you pay per athlete, not per crew.
If this was just done as a Festival it would probably be cheaper.
But, I think you'll find Welland, USDBA, DBC and GWN will all have incurred some cost - Officials/Insurance/Medals/Meal supplement/boats.

I take it that's Mike posting?

Actually no.
You'll find the teams racing at Sudbury for the Race-off's paid per athlete.
The teams racing for the fesival paid per team.

I had a great time - good racing and a well run event.

I don't see a problem with the fee.

$1500 to race against almost all the best teams around. 6 races in 2 days!

Compare that to the Island $2500 for 3, maybe 4 races.

My team didn't make the finals unfortunately. But it allowed us to watch some of the best Finals I have ever seen. Tight races, with some really powerful crews.

Did any Mexican teams make it?

1. Eat Trout
2. ?
3. Imperial Dragons
4. Verdun
5. ?
6. Hanalei
7. Piranhas
8. ?
9. U of T
10. Wall Street Dragons

Who won ? Did the Canadians Dominate?

from what I saw, had Eat Trout entered in the Premier Division, they would have won every race. they had the 2nd fastest race of the Day in the 500m a 2.03.78. the only team faster was Mayfair at 2.03.48. They dominated the 2000m race.
Mayfair was extremely good likewise Scotia beach

What a great week-end it was. First time in Welland (second for my team) and I had a blast. Of course the fact that my team FINALLY did what it's capable of was fun. Not enough for us to join in the Big Boys in the "a" division, but enough to put a satisfying smile to my face.

Congrats to all the teams for great racing, especially the "a" division teams, and more so the Mayfair Predators who really humbled many other teams and was on top of their game this week-end.

The venue was great as well as the weather especialy on sunday. Sure there was some wind on saturday, but hey, can't have a perfect week-end all the time now can't we ?
Could have used a second food concession there though. At times the line-up was soooo long, even with those pple working like crazy !

Oh and by the way... I think the 50$ pp cost is ok. As someone else said, there are other festivals where it costs more. It's not cheap but not expensive.
And to all of ou whiners out there... can it ! If things keep going sa they are, we should rename this forum " Whiner's forum " . I betcha you all come from Toronto too !


Hey guys, it'a a joke ! Lighten up ! hahahahahah

Philly was a very fast crew..........

I read a bunch of stuff about them and their organization, and I do not know anything about their politics.
All I know is that I recognize many of them from Germany, and they were fast.

They were also friendly, athletic, and real sportsman and woman.

I was glad to race with them and glad to see them come up to really make the weekend and International event.

Overall great event. As fair a course as you could have regardless of the lane bias due to wind (man lane 1-3 were definitely the lanes to be in on Sunday). Man you had to be on in each heat this weekend. One bad race and it cost you. My team missed making the A final by 0.03 seconds in the 500m semi on Saturday to post a faster time in the A consol than the 5th and 6th place teams in the 500m A final. That hurts, but that is racing. Congrats to all the crews. Fair tough competition and the calibre at this event was the best we have seen in a long time.

to have a few of these competitive/fair races each year.........

instead of the bitchin and moanin assocated with so many

Nice to see a few posts near the end that have something positive to say. As for the rest of you, you'll never be happy if you don't have something to complain about as evidenced by the fact you ALWAYS whine and complain. If come to understand that it is NEVER even 1/2 as bad as you say it is.

Bar none. Anyone who complains should organize their own festivals and try to do better.

It was a great weekend of racing in Welland. Such a pure sporting event with a great number of top level teams. I agree, every race was a dogfight. There were no heats you could just walk down the course and be assured of moving on. (okay, well, you could walk it down the course for the prem. open heats, but that was about it).

As for the Imperial Dragons and their protest of the 500m semi-final, I think it was brilliant! The job of a coach or captain is to keep their team "in the hunt" for as long as possible, to try to get the best possible result for their team. By lodging a succesful protest the Imperial's coach/captain gave them another opportunity to win. I don't know as an absolute certainty that the protest was legit, but so what? They succeeded, they got in to the A final. Good job!

As for Mayfair vs Scotia, Scotia wins by tie-break. Whether or not there was any official use of the "in case of a tie in points, the winner of the 500m race will be declared winner" rule, most of us use this as rule of thumb. The 500m race is the premiere distance. You win this, you're the champ. Both teams can claim to be champions: Mayfair in the 200m and Scotia Rouge in the 500m, but to me (and many others) Scotia can claim the overall crown as well.

Other things: the starter was great, conditions were unpredictable, NEVER compare times from one heat to the next or one division to another, keep you paddle wet and your shorts dry.

See you in 2007!

Mayfair 1st and 2nd
Scotia 1st and 3rd
Check the time differences in both races as well...
Back to Frenchman's Bay, nackered...

6:13,do you have a point you are trying to make?

I was waiting to see how long before it comes up. Who's the real champion?
According to NACCC rules, Mayfair.
Mayfair won 200m race and came in second in 500m race.
Scotia Rouge won 500m and came in third in 200m race (behind Philly).

Mayfair wins the NACCC by one point. No questions about that.

What was the shorter distance in Sudbury? 250m. In Welland? 200m.
What's the distance all of us think of as a dragonboat race? 500m.

The Good...........

The truly incredible teams that all competed head to head
The dominant performance by Eat Trout (considering their age)
The excellent weather and great course
The great job by Mark Carl and company for running an event on schedule.
The super starter who was in complete control during the event.
The stroke rate of the big time teams.
The times that were in some cases close to those in Berlin.
Finally , the first NACCC is now in the books and teams can start planning for next year's event in Tampa.
Some, but not a lot of politics
The announcing was pretty good.


The Bad................
Toilets should have been cleaned more often
Line up for food and drink was too long.
Lack of spectators and media coverage for such a great event.

Mickey mouse as the starter was my favourity part.

I thought that Scotia came 2nd in the 200m. If not, you're correct that with a 2nd and 1st vs Scotia's 1st and 3rd that Mayfair would be the overall winner.

Honest mistake, and I haven't been to Frenchman's Bay in a long, long time.

Can someone post the full results for the whole weekend?? Thanks.

Never been to Welland before , had a great time ! Thanks to the organizers. An advantage of being old is you get to watch the young guns race , and it was great racing! Mayfair was awesome , I thought they should have won every race but Scotia had a classic kick at the end of the 500 and made it look easy and controlled. I would love to have that sense of pace.
Loved the 2000 , a distance where I do have a sense of pace. Fun trying to catch up , something else I know about. Would give a fairer result but less interesting race if the fastest teams started first , instead of last.

The Best...

Fantastic weather.
Great music on the sound system.
Athletes as far as the eye could see.
Races run on time.
Fair starts.
Breathtaking premier division races.
Strong women's races.
Incredible breast cancer teams.

The worst...

The most laid back announcer of all time.
Disgusting port-a-potties.
The attitude exhibited by the GWN "bosses".

Results for the 2005 NACCC's have now been posted at http://www.dragonboatcanada.org/NACCC/docs/Final_Results_2005_NACCC.xls

but what was with the timing system. This is why I can't call it great. Everyone yapping about a pure "sporting event". Some guy with a stop watch does not constitute a good timed sporting event. With races all so close, fractions of a second can mean the difference between racing in a or b division. Forget the 2 "pp" rule being a joke, this was the icing on the cake. Really both major race offs this year were not very well done from a sporting side. While sudbury was obviously worse, the lack of a proper timing system for such an important race was my disappointment.

I Agree

Everything was generally well run, but the timing was a joke. Consider that human reaction time is 0.25 seconds, then you could be looking at 0.25 seconds for the start + 0.25 seconds for your boat as it crosses the line. In total, up to half a second difference between heats when hand timing is used.

I did expect much more from GWN in this regard.

Hand timing is only used as a back-up dummy.
The video feedback has the time built into it.

Regardless of the results, it was a good weekend of hard racing for all teams involved. Congratulations to all who participated!

For those that care, here is a breakdown of overall results in the Premiere Mixed division. 2000m not included.

Rnk 500 200 Total Avg Team
1 … 2 … 1 … 3 … 1.5 … Mayfair Predators
2 … 1 … 3 … 4 … 2.0 … Scotia Rouge
3 … 3 … 2 … 5 … 2.5 … Philadelphia DBA
4 … 4 … 5 … 9 … 4.5 … Wongs D-slayers
5 … 7 … 6 … 13 … 6.5 … Imperial Dragons
6 … 6 … 8 … 14 … 7.0 … Hammerheads
7 … 11 … 4 … 15 … 7.5 … Verdun
8 … 5 … 11 … 16 … 8.0 … Sudbury Chiro
9 … 10 … 9 … 19 … 9.5 … Big Fish
10 … 8 … 12 … 20 … 10.0 … Hanalei
11 … 14 … 7 … 21 … 10.5 … Tempest
12 … 9 … 13 … 22 … 11.0 … Piranhas Beach
13 … 16 … 10 … 26 … 13.0 … DCH
14 … 12 … 14 … 26 … 13.0 … Telus Mobility
15 … 13 … 16 … 29 … 14.5 … Hyperactifs
16 … 15 … 15 … 30 … 15.0 … Sudbury CC
17 … 17 … 18 … 35 … 17.5 … Team Chaos
18 … 19 … 17 … 36 … 18.0 … NY Wall Street
19 … 18 … 20 … 38 … 19.0 … Cascades Twist
20 … 20 … 19 … 39 … 19.5 … U of T Waterdragons

That's kind of an interesting breakdown if you look at it as a sort of report card.

Most teams have roughly even 200 and 500 placements. However, it looks like Verdun and Tempest suffered due to relatively weak 500 placement. Whereas the Chiros seem to have taken it on the chin in the 200.

Congratulations on nobody getting a "Does not play well with others".

While both distances are good races. 200m is essentially a "no-talent" race where teams of lesser quality can keep up with better crews. How many times have we heard that the 200m is a crapshoot? 50 seconds of pounding at the water as hard as you can gives teams the chance to keep up with superior teams.

I'm not saying there is no skill in a 200m, but it is definitely less than a 500m. Show me the 500m champion and I will show you the better team.

" Hand timing is only used as a back-up dummy. The video feedback has the time built into it."

You're right, but it doesn't explain the supposed 8-second gap between 1st and 6th in the first heat of the Premier Mixed 200 metre race. Teams essentially went down the race course together. At most, the last place team was half a boat behind Scotia Rouge and pretty much neck to neck with Piranhas-Beach. I made eye contact from the drum with Rob after that race and we knew it was close crossing that finish line - and low and behold:

1 Premier Mixed U of T Waterdragons 6 00:53.98
2 Premier Mixed Scotia Rouge 1 00:46.64
3 Premier Mixed Sudbury CC 5 00:50.46
4 Premier Mixed Big Fish 3 00:47.69
5 Premier Mixed Verdun 2 00:46.95
6 Premier Mixed Piranhas Beach 4 00:49.84

I spoke to Bob Morro after the race and he explained to be that the times are taken from the stopwatch first and the video is used to confirm the times and determine relative placements using video frames to assign times within hundredths of a second.

I have been through similar situations with USDBF timed events in the past and the times are just not accurate. I have gone down to NYC and had teams cross into our lane to cut us off and the referees have told us "we didn't see anything" - I don't think this is a GWN issue. The event was as collaboration between DBC and USDBF and the chief officials were from the USDBF and their credibility with me is extremely low. Again, they got the placements right which is what matters in the finals, and for the top 2 teams in the semi - but for close races and for heats in which qualifying is done by time, this sort of business is unacceptable for an international level event in the year 2005 where better technology is available. Especially considering the stakes involved. With so few teams competing, a repechage would be a better approach then going with time.

But ultimately since you are looking for the cream of the crop in a race-off situation it's not THAT urgent of a situation, I suppose since ultimately, the best crews did receive the sanctions they deserved. So at least the system worked in that regard, I must say. But it still takes away from the legitimacy of the sport.

While the top two or three teams clearly seperated themselves the rest of the packs relative strengths/results are highly subjective.

When 5/6 boats all cross the line within 0.5 any timing irregularities WILL change everything. Several teams were surprised at placings and time differencials and when they approached the officials were simply told, if you have an issue file a protest. Same if you wanted to see video.

Unfortunate.

Hand timing is NOT used as a back-up. I spoke to the timer.

The timer uses a stopwatch. When teams are close together he only times the first of the pack and then uses the camera to count frames for the others.

"Show me the 500m champion and I will show you the better team."

ok, twit, It'll show you the better team on the 500. If we're racing 200m, how about look at the 200m results.

Is michael johnson a better athlete then donavan bailey was?

this is totally unacceptable then you have 3/4 heats all basing advancement on time. So what you are saying is that if he/she screwed up it wasn't just for one boat, but all six in the heat. Much better.

I am sure teams that missed the Semi and Final cuts by .2 or so will be thrilled to hear that.

Placing and repechage is the only way to go. There was plenty of time to throw in 2/3 more races without any scheduling issues.

Also seeding teams for the first heats on Saturday was unnecessary, stupid and marginalizes the sport.

to "report card thoughts"

The 200 m final actually wasn't a very close race. The fastest team all day won the event, and the other very fast crews - scotia and philly - ended up exactly where you would expect them to be.

If the 200 m is such a crap shoot, you would expect a lot more variation in the results between the 500 and 200 - which didn't happen. The best crews ended up at the top of the pile.

"I am sure teams that missed the Semi and Final cuts by .2 or so will be thrilled to hear that."

They should've just protested and gotten in anyway...fools!

"Show me the 500m champion and I will show you the better team" I think the 500 was very close, was it not. So even if better? by how much?

This is a laughable comment likely made by someone who lost in the 200.

"50 seconds of pounding at the water as hard as you can gives teams the chance to keep up with superior teams"

Again I guess if you race the 200 like this you will never win.

Although Mayfair clearly crushed the field in the 200 in Welland, I doubt the good paddlers from Philly or Scotia Rouge merely "pounded the water".
Finally at 50 seconds you were no where.

Try practicing and training more and less thinking of excuses........ and keep your limited knowledge to yourself.

What a bunch of whiney pinheads! I hope one day these guys would run their own large regatta and see what it takes.

Another thing I'm not fond of are their assertions which are used to bolster their own crew's poor performance and belittle others.

typical - if you go back to the predictions thread leading up this event there was lots of chatter about the calibre, best crews in the country, deep racing etc...

now that it's over people find a way to minimize the results of those who raced there...

I watched both the 500 metre final and the 200 metre final and honestly that is some of the most outstanding racing I've seen... Scotia and mayfair are both clearly calibre crews, no question about that

one more thing - to minimize a 200 metre race is ridiculous - I doubt that the Canadian Senior Mixed crew that beat the Chinese for gold in Berlin thinks this is a nothing race...different distances, different skills... different results - if it's such a nothing race then why did Scotia come third?

It's feedback - no one is complaining about deep water, the best race course in the country and top calibre crews.

If your margin of error is greater than the time differential between teams and the results are CLEARLY off, then the timing was an issue! It's as simple as that. If you cannot guarantee that the timer's thumbs are accurate enough to warrant advancement based by time, it doesn't matter HOW great the competition and race course are. I still stand by the belief that a repechage system would have worked much better in terms of determining placements in a fair manner.

The event was well run otherwise - but timing, that's a huge thing. You've got to wonder how crews like the Hammerheads felt when they realized they didn't make the 200m final based on the timer's thumb not being fast enough.

We actually creid alittle-we hugged a bit but, then we got ready for our next race. Great job Tempest!

Make sure that you understand what you are hoping for when you bring up advancement based on semi or reps (repecharge)

I'll use an exmaple from the Senior World Sprint Championships held this past weekend in Crotia.

Mens K-1 1000m
6 heats (made up of mostly 8 people in a 9 lane course)

Advancment
1/6 to SF
REST OUT

Now granted in Dragonboat that would be seen as unacceptable as some would complain that they only got 1 race/distance based on their less than stellar performance, so perhaps REST OUT could be replaced by "rest to consolation final" ie they race the other bottoms of the heats.

But you live by the sword and die by the sword with a rep/semi system.

When you get to the semis of the men's K-1 then 4 semis
Advancment
1/2 + 3rd Best Time to A Final
3/4 -3rd Best time + next 2 best times to B Final
ALL OTHER OUT


If your team got into a semi with let's say Mayfair/Philly and Scotia but you are definitely an "A" final team you would in fact be out (NOT EVEN B Final). Again, because it's dragonboat and people would again complain that they only got 2 races/distance they could join the others in the consolation round. But I suspect that people would complain that they are out and not racing against their peers.

This is by far the best system IF EVERYONE does what they are supposed to do placing wise so that they don't all meet up in the same semi.

And this would only work in smaller numbers, ie don't try to do it at an event that had 100plus crew racing.

It would not be hard to explain to some on DBC as they come from a sprint background. Others come from a festival background, and as such, use what is familiar to them.

BUT BEWARE WHAT YOU WISH FOR, as you might just get it and one day be in the toughest semi of your life.

Pardon my ignorance, but I didn't think repechage required elimination per se.

Definition: A trial heat, especially in rowing, allowing competitors who have already lost a heat another chance to qualify for the semifinals.

To me, that says, rather than allowing the "third best time" into the semis (say, after the first and seconds from all heats), you have an extra heat to decide *head-to-head* who gets to advance to the finals.

Example:
Semi-final
S1: 1 2 3 4 5 6
S2: 1 2 3 4 5 6
S3: 1 2 3 4 5 6
S4: 1 2 3 4 5 6

So all the winners automatically advance. Then a repechage race pits all the second place winners and next two fastest times against one another. The top two get to race the finals.

It's true, elimination is implied, but it's not required. This means all advancement is based on head-to-head. Teams that don't automatically advance to the finals may end up more tired due to the extra race.

No ignorance at all.
I gave only one example.
ICF (and CCA, as well as many sports) have certain templates that are used based on the number of entries.
The example I gave was from one event, there were other events where winners could make the final direct from the heat and without a doubt there were events that no one was eliminated after the heats.

My post was more directed at the poster who in one sentance wished for rep/semi system and then continued to complain that heats shouldn't be seeded.

Thanks for the example, repechages aren't the easy way out at all. But they put the fate of each team into their own hands.

I'm familiar with the idea of a repechage, as a spectator of international sprint canoeing and kayaking and also as a competitor in other sports (some of us have come to dragonboating after we peaked and declined in other sports too). I've had the pleasure of losing in a regional final during a preliminary round and having to compete in twice the amount of matches as others to qualify for a provincial championship (wrestling).

As a competitor, the timing probably benefitted me so this is no attempt at whining. In fact, the example of the Hammerheads above, could have possibly been the difference in my participation in the 200m A Final. Who knows, but that's the point. It shouldn't be left to the margin of error caused by the timing system. I could care less about whether or not its harder to qualify. You want to make the final and you don't win your heat - you must pay the price to make up for not winning your heat! That's the luck of the draw, and that's life. If you genuinely lose, you lose. Personally I live for those tight semi's you refer to. There's no doubt about your placement when you get beaten.

Sorry Derek,

I just read your follow up message. You were referring to the person who mentioned seeding and that was not me.

Someone mentioned earlier:

"Hand timing is NOT used as a back-up. I spoke to the timer. The timer uses a stopwatch. When teams are close together he only times the first of the pack and then uses the camera to count frames for the others."

This would make sense, since there were so many tight heats, it'd be difficult to use a stop watch for all the boats. Using this method, the margin of error would be the same for everyone, not just for a few select crews.

But potentially different heat to heat

Montreal used to use the Repechage format. I considered it weird at the time, but after watching regatta after regatta cripled by timing issues I like it a lot better.

The IDBF handbook had a number of different versions of their "Tail Race" plans, basically repechage formats.

The way it generally went is that heat winners go direct to semi-finals, losers to repechage. Rep winners rejoin the heat winners in the semi-finals while losers got to Tail races (or the beer tent). 1st to 3rd in semi's go to Major Final, rest to Minor Final. Or something like that. So most teams get 3 races, a few get 4.

This could have been easily run for the 20 team Prem. Mixed division at the NACCC.

As Derek said, you could get issues if teams don't perform as you expect, or somehow the best 6 teams all wind up in the same heat to start off, but most get a chance to redeem themselves through the reps. It also encourages "strategic" racing at times, either a good or a bad thing depending on your perspective.

Montreal used to suffer from some outrageous sand-bagging. There are some great stories of the lenghts teams went to in order to avoid a semi-final against teams like Madawaska.

how was the competition in those divisions?

Jason - those USDBF officials you spoke about with little credibility, have been doing IDBF World Championships since it's inception.

What happened at the NYC Liberty regatta cannot be entirely blamed on Bob Morro, he has only one set of eyes and cannot be a finish line judge and course official at the same time. I believe part of the blame goes to the volunteer officials with little or no training.

Can't download the results from work. Can someone put the results of the women races here?
Thanks.

500m
1 Premier Women Stratford Women 5 02:21.28
2 Premier Women Cascades Women 4 02:20.79
3 Premier Women Montreal DBC B 3 02:19.44
4 Premier Women Montreal DBC A 1 02:15.85
5 Premier Women GWN 2 02:17.39
6 Premier Women Eye Catch 6 02:24.03
lane team place time
200m

1 Premier Women Eye Catch 4 00:54.26
2 Premier Women Montreal DBC B 3 00:53.44
3 Premier Women Montreal DBC A 1 00:52.13
4 Premier Women GWN 2 00:52.71
5 Premier Women Cascades Women 6 00:55.67
6 Premier Women Stratford Women 5 00:54.95
lane team place time

Montreal DBC A won both, with GWN second and Montreal DBC B third.

what was the men's results?

Philly won premier open easily.

I guess they went unchallenged, so much for the downfall of the Philly Mens.

500
Premier Open Scotia Rouge 4 02:06.55
Premier Open Montreal DBC A 3 02:05.78
Premier Open Philadelphia DBA 1 02:01.90
Premier Open GWN 5 02:07.25
Premier Open Riptide 7 02:08.35
Premier Open DCH 6 02:07.70
Premier Open MAD 2 02:05.23

200
Premier Open MAD 2 00:47.00
Premier Open DCH 5 00:48.32
Premier Open Philadelphia DBA 1 00:46.32
Premier Open GWN 3 00:47.39
Premier Open Montreal DBC A 4 00:47.42
Premier Open Riptide 6 00:48.87
Premier Open Scotia Rouge 7 00:51.94

In my next life I want to come back as a NACCC FESTIVAL organizer. $70000 (after DBC gets it cut)
I think I'll get myself a new lotus pad.

Didn't MAD finished pretty slow in the prelims? How the hell they come back behind Philly in the Finals?

makes you wonder...

Called conserving your energy while sandbagging at the same time. No matter what the finish is in the heat, they will be in the finals. With Welland as the race course, all lanes are equal, thus lane assignment does not matter.

Budda Pete -

Premier Mix was the big races. Just give props to your team MAD and don't beat around.

what does sandbagging mean?

All lanes not equal. Lane 1 has it's shallow moments

Well the difference in time can be attributed to the alternates...
MAD finished 2nd in the 200m in lane 1 so the lane probably wasnt TOO shallow.

This could be why they finished 2nd.

Several crews posted really fast times in lane one preliminaries.

MAD finished second because Philly was much faster for Pete's sake.

Talk about illusions of grandeur.

Men's and Women's.

Premiere Women

Rnk 500 200 Avg Team
1 … 1 … 1 … 1 … Montreal DBC A
2 … 2 … 2 … 2 … GWN
3 … 3 … 3 … 3 … Montreal DBC B
4 … 4 … 6 … 5 … Cascades Women
6 … 5 … 5 … 5 … Stratford Women
5 … 6 … 4 … 5 … Eye Catch
7 … 7 … 7 … 7 … Schuylkill Dragons
8 … 8 … 8 … 8 … Women In Canoe
9 … 9 … 9 … 9 … D.C.H.

Premiere Men

Rnk 500 200 Avg Team
1 … 1 … 1 … 1.0 … Philadelphia DBA
2 … 2 … 2 … 2.0 … MAD
3 … 3 … 4 … 3.5 … Montreal DBC A
4 … 5 … 3 … 4.0 … GWN
5 … 4 … 7 … 5.5 … Scotia Rouge
6 … 6 … 5 … 5.5 … DCH
7 … 7 … 6 … 6.5 … Riptide

Scotia raced with 16 and GWN and Montreal already claimed their spots for the worlds...I think everybody was more focused on the mixed races.

Lets not start to belittle other teams and make excuses for ourselves now. If you go to each team after ever regatta and ask about their situation there are going to be things that have prevented them from doing better than they "could've"

All the crews in the premier open, except for MAD and Riptide had secured their spots for WCCC and were focused on the mix races. Most open crews were double rosted onto the premier mix crews and some of the men were tripled rostered: mix, open, and seniors.

Speaking on behalf of myself only, I felt that the Open races were for fun and experience since there wasn't really anything at stake. Sure, it's always nice to win and we did race hard, but we didn't push ourselves TOO hard. The mixed races were the more important ones to most people on our team, maybe most people on all the teams. Not an excuse, just reality. I think maybe only the MAD guys really pushed themselves because they didn't have a mixed team, and this is reflected in their well earned second place finishes.

It was fun to race Philly this year, and they behaved like true sportsmen. Thanks again for making the trip!

Before going to Welland the MAD open team had already qualified for the 2006 WCCC.

Nothing really at stake, but with no mixed races to save themselves for MAD could afford to go all-out in the finals. Well, maybe their Tempest guys would have to take it a little easier.

MAD was probably the only open crew that took it seriously and the only one without racing in any other division and still got beaten.

It was actually MAD guys in the Tempest mixed boat, not Tempest guys in the MAD open boat. Whatever, doesn't matter. Not trying to stir any sh!t. Damn, just stop already. ACH!!!

MAD and TEMPEST cross rostering is that allowed?

Tempest had MAD men in their boat. Is a DBC team allowed to have USDBF team members on their boat? And were those MAD guys on their roster?

With the exception of Montreal. MAD Open had performed well. Flushing and Welland has shown that they have the capability to compete against Phily and some of the other Open crews. However, they need to be consistant in their performance.

So what you guys are saying is that MAD only beat you because you didn't try...sure

one of the MAD engine room paddler broke his apex hybrid during the start in the 200m finals. that could've made up the lost second

C'mon, they only got beaten by Philly! PHILLY for heaven's sake! You would expect that, wouldn't you? So not dissing MAD here, they're a good group.

But yeah, I also think they beat a few other crews out there that were more focused on the mixed racing than men's. Consider than some guys had five 500m races, 2 in the Open and 3 in the mixed, with a Club Crew sanction at stake in the Mixed. Which races do you think they're going to go all out for? Meaningless men's team races, or a possible CCWC sanction in mixed? You figure it out, and put your righteous indignation back in your pants.

That only applies to the hotheads out there, not the guys on MAD who actually have a brain.

Ok so can someone clarify how MAD men get to paddle in Tempest's boat for the 200M A consolation final at NACCC? And how is this allowed?

go suck my righteous indignation!

heheh

Doesn't matter if we tried or not, the results are what they are.
MAD was better than other open crews, with exception of Philly.
See you at the Worlds next year. Train hard.

How can you possibly know how serious every other team is when they're racing? When I go into a race I for one know that even if it is a "not serious" race to begin with once the horn sounds you end up going as hard as you can anyways. Maybe it's your lack of competitiveness and overabundance of excuses that will never get you even remotely close to winning. If the other teams really werent serious and really saving themselves then why even bother with entering the division? It certainly was not a cheap race. Why not easy paddle? Why even bother coming to Welland? Not serious??? please...show some sportsmanship and stop trying to save face.

I cannot speak for others, but my crew needed to "qualify the roster" in a sanctioned race. Which is what we did.

Well, that doesn't sound right at all, DBC should look into it. If it is true, they should invalidate Tempest's final placing.

"If the other teams really werent serious and really saving themselves then why even bother with entering the division?"

The answer is simple, but you may not like it. I'll just leave it at that. 'Bye.

As usual people are making excuses for losing to make themselves feel better. Just business as usual. The results speak for themselves.

Hey,enjoy the weak premier mens field while it lasts!!!!!

shhhhhhhh

PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST.

You're the one that's making it weak.

I wonder how Piranhas Beach feels now that Tempest's cheating has been outed. They got knocked out of the A bracket by a crew they handily beat in the 500. NACCC is proving to be a joke of epic proportions.

Hey wasn't there a couple of Imps in the MAD boat aswell?

I don't think anyone was holding back during premier open races, but they were tired after doing 5-6 races at the end of the day (look at each heat and you will see some crews got weaker as day unfolded). I'm not taking anything away from the top three finishers, they ran a good race and won, congrats to them.

It's sad that Tempest would resort to using other paddlers and MAD cooperating to this type of cheating. They both should know better.

I just heard that Tempest entered as a sports crew only and did not attempt to get a placement for club crews. So even if they somehow place, they would not get any points and would not qualify for a spot.

You guys are idiots. Whether or not Tempest had MAD paddlers is a moot point. They did not win a spot for the WCCC, nor do I think they were expecting to win. They went to have fun and compete. And I don't think the Piranhnas really care if they was a couple of outside paddlers. Besides, there members on both teams that are good friends with each other. They don't have the 'silo' approach in dragonboating of 'us vs. everyone' mentality.

As for the outside individuals paddling with the MAD open - they were on the roster. And there was only one Imp paddling with them. Other IMP who paddled with the GWN Open, was going paddle with them for the 2000 if they needed him (please note the 2000 was an optional race and did not affect the overall standings - therefore could have raced with them)

Instead, of worry about this minor issues, we should be congratulating Mayfair and Scotia in winning spots at the WCCC. They competed well.

GWN Open had members who were not members of the GWN Dragon Boat Club.

This is a dark, dark day for dragonboat racing.

You are all gay.

WAHH WAHHH WAHHH my team didnt win...WAHH WAHHH WAHHH...you're all cheaters...WAHH WAHHH WAHHHH *sniff sniff

Man. Are you guys dumb.

Hey Anon, this was the 3rd, not 1st NACCC.

NACCC 2001 - Philadelphia, PA (Mixed won by Madawaska Sprinters)
NACCC 2003 - Welland, ON (Mixed won by Mississauga Canoe Club)
NACCC 2005 - Welland, ON (Mixed won by Mayfair Predators)

Gotta hand it to Mayfair, I would say the team of the year based on winning everything they touched except Sudbury. X-Paddling, however, is the team to watch for 2006.

We're all gay because we adhere to rules and it's ok if we cheat as long as it's with our friends. Good one, I'll remember that next time I have to side step a rule.

New Rankings.

Rnk 500 200 Total Avg Team
1 … 2 … 1 … 3 … 1.5 … Mayfair Predators
2 … 1 … 3 … 4 … 2.0 … Scotia Rouge
3 … 3 … 2 … 5 … 2.5 … Philadelphia DBA
4 … 4 … 5 … 9 … 4.5 … Wongs D-slayers
5 … 7 … 6 … 13 … 6.5 … Imperial Dragons
6 … 6 … 8 … 14 … 7.0 … Hammerheads
7 … 11 … 4 … 15 … 7.5 … Verdun
8 … 5 … 11 … 16 … 8.0 … Sudbury Chiro
9 … 10 … 9 … 19 … 9.5 … Big Fish
10 … 8 … 12 … 20 … 10.0 … Hanalei
11 … 9 … 13 … 22 … 11.0 … Piranhas Beach
12 … 16 … 10 … 26 … 13.0 … DCH
13 … 12 … 14 … 26 … 13.0 … Telus Mobility
14 … 13 … 16 … 29 … 14.5 … Hyperactifs
15 … 15 … 15 … 30 … 15.0 … Sudbury CC
16 … 17 … 18 … 35 … 17.5 … Team Chaos
17 … 19 … 17 … 36 … 18.0 … NY Wall Street
18 … 18 … 20 … 38 … 19.0 … Cascades Twist
19 … 20 … 19 … 39 … 19.5 … U of T Waterdragons
20 … 14 … 7 … 21 … 10.5 … Tempest***

Dear Wahhhhhhh

Do you honestly think that there is one team that honestly adhere to the rules? Even in competitive sports at the pro level, every athlete and team are looking for a shortcut.

If Tempest had one of the spot to WCCC then I would that being an issue that should be addressed. However, they were short on paddlers and had asked some of their friends to help them out. If you really what to be anal about the whole situation, why don't you ask the organizers as to why only certain teams had their IDs check while others were let go in the finals.

"I wonder how Piranhas Beach feels now that Tempest's cheating has been outed. They got knocked out of the A bracket by a crew they handily beat in the 500. NACCC is proving to be a joke of epic proportions."

I truly, truly hope this was not a Piranha posting.

Dear Anon -August 31 2005, 1:27 PM

"Do you honestly think that there is one team that honestly adhere to the rules? Even in competitive sports at the pro level, every athlete and team are looking for a shortcut."

I don't have a issue with what Tempest did, but you cannot be serious?! My crew adhered to the rules all season, struggled at times to fill out crew even though some of our closest friends were pp.

With atittudes such as that no wonder dragon boat is struggling to be recognized as a true sport.

C'mon admit it....you know that you did.

Where's ben Johnson when you need him these days? I've got to get some steroids before the WCCC.

stanozolol is basically not going to help performance at all..that's why the positive test was bullshit..he took other stuff but he DID NOT take stanozolol. he tested positive for something he professes he never took (And doesnt' improve performance in his sport).

It doesn't matter because Tempest was there as a sport crew, there to have fun and yet still get to compete against some of the best. We knew going in we were not competing for a spot (WCCC). So we didn't try to trick anyone. When we loaded in the boat, we told the guy checking the id's we were there as a sport crew and we had a couple fill-ins. They said no problem, load up. Im sure, like any team, our preference would have been to have our full crew but life happens ... so onto the next complaint...

One more thing, I could understand ppl bitching if half the boat were ringers but thats not the case in this situation...we were two short of our real team

two short for 18 or 20? There were crews who raced with 18.

there was a crew racing with 16 as well. Wasn't last place either.

I don't feel cheated by being beaten by Tempest, why should you? If they beat you, you were out of the hunt for a sanction anyhow. Does it really matter to you if you placed 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th? If what you care about is results than GSB is all that truly counts. The rest is racing for pride, for fun, and for competition. So why are you so bent out of shape about this?

Teams race to see how they stack up against others. NACCC was a great opportunity to show how good your team really is. I don't care of my team finishes 1st, 5th or 20th. If that's where we belong then that is good for me. The problem is when teams don't use their true crews. Then the result is tainted and the point of sport racing is lost.

Leave Munchkin alone!

Great venue, even better than advertised - too bad it's so remote. I think there weren't more than a couple dozen spectators at any given point in time that weren't part of the competition. It would have made a nice showcase event.

The starter rocked, calm and controlled all day. And the quick starts sure helped with all the cross winds.

Can't say enough about every heat looking like an A final. You just can't get a racing experience like that anywhere else.

In fact, the only quibble I have was the lack of a beer tent when the racing was finally over with. Not exactly the most serious of flaws (or is it?).

Only dissappointment is this forum that will pound anything for every possible reason.

Overall, a must go to event. Too bad a couple more teams can't work it into their schedule.

Hey Seat #5

I'm with you. Wow, what a close finish in the 500M. It just shows you how good and close all three crews were - Scotia, Mayfair and Philly.

Also note that there were not bad words between the crews - all raced hard and enjoyed the competition. That's the way it should be.

Philly guys are mostly pretty cool, yes they had 1 or 2 bad apples, but they are gone now. They race hard and prove they can be one of the elite crews. So good job Philly.

"stanozolol is basically not going to help performance at all..that's why the positive test was bullshit..he took other stuff but he DID NOT take stanozolol. he tested positive for something he professes he never took (And doesnt' improve performance in his sport)."


Care to elaborate? It doesn't produce large gains as far as I know but as far as no improvement goes this would certainly be news to all the athletes who still continue to use it to this day.

Ok, so here goes.

After not making the "A" Final in the 500 many of Hanalai's team LEAVE. Yet they manage a full boat and their very best race all weekend to win the "A" Con.

They are the last to get on the water and bolt right after the race... Why? Bacause they filled the void with Trout, that's why. This is probably why they started some goofy semblance of roster checking on Sunday.

Oh, and when Scotia got checked? Did you see the drummer go running for their boss lady? I wonder why. Even loaded to the teeth with PP's and the rest is it possible that they still couldn't manage to stick within their roster.

So, what is the moral of the story? Nothing, great racing all weekend, was great to watch. Hopefully DBC learns some lessons.

ordell, i'm on your msn list..we can talk more there. you know who i am. i have the word professor on my msn name.

Hanalai stacked with Trout ? Which ones ? How do you know ?
Scotia drummer running for their boss lady ? So ?

Results: looked like some tight racing
Surprises: that no seems to mind paying big $$ to FOR PROFIT companies operating under the smoke screen of DBC where crews had to attend to gain a sanction
Disappointments: that SPORT dragonboat teams don't join up with canoe clubs (NOT FOR PROFIT) and race each other every weekend FOR FREE at local sprint regattas (or perhaps even provincials and then nationals)

The last poster sounded like someone jumping all over the CCA and ICF bandwagon.

Next years event will be worse than NACCC.
The IDBF will team up with Sharifa, for a profit run event.
There is no difference between what Sharifa is doing and GWN, except
she'll claim it's all not for profit somehow.

oh, and the Island Festival will fold.

He still raises a good point about the canoe clubs.
However, there's no way dragonboaters would go for those canoe club weekend races. I mean, there's no video, there's no ghost lanes, starters aren't professional officials, there's just a bunch of people having fun paddling. That's so not dragonboat. Who would we all bitch at?

Starters at Canoe Club regattas have been doing it for years.They are as professional as it gets.Do you even know what you are talking about?

Some(most)were the ones who organized DB when it began here in the late 80's.Not sure how many are left to help these days with the HORRENDOUS politics.

I was talking about those little weekend regattas where it's just for fun.
I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

The Philly team had a blast this past weekend, especially on our bus ride home. We were treated great and enjoyed the racing. The course was fair and the racing was intense. Having been one of the captains for a few years, I apologize for anything negative that may appear on the internet. I must admit that we have a few former team members that are dragging us down, reputation-wise and their anonymous, classless postings do not reflect the opinions of the current Philly team. See you next year! Pete McNamara

Hey Pete,
Definitely have to give it to the team for showing a good side quite frankly I haven't been familiar with in the past. It's true - you can be sportsmanlike AND still kick ass. Good work.

It was fun racing you guys. See you in Toronto next year!

What an asswipe. We have no affiliation with Eat Trout in any way, shape or form. Hanalei won the 500M A consolation with their regular roster as usual. Just like we won the 200M morning heat on Sunday. Please go find Niagara falls and Kayak over it moron. Oh sorry I am assuming you know how to paddle.

I was talking about those little weekend regattas where it's just for fun.
I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.


Well you said it!

I guess $20k gets you a seat back on the Philly boat.

A short comparison of the Sudbury and Welland race-offs:
a) Sudbury races are 250m and 500m vs 200 and 500 at Welland
b) photo ID check at Subbury for every race, spot checks at Welland for specific crews (I'm out of the loop for the reason why)
c) Sudbury - 2 races and we're out of there by 1 pm Saturday, 2 days of racing at Welland
d) finish lines - at Sudbury, the suggestions for where the finish line for the 250 ran like this: the finish is 6 buoys from the last buoy of the 500 m; OR we'll have a person standing on shore at the 250m mark waving his arms; OR we'll have a motorboat at the 250m mark so you know where to finish. Video of finish line is taped by 2 coaches holding a camcorder.

Welland: finish line is where it's been all weekend, with officials doing the filming.

To race at this level is incredible, the vast majority of our sport don't even know what the NACCC was. The truth of the matter is that all these athletes should be congratulated for a weekend of great paddling