I happened to find this link on the biketoronto.ca web site of all places. It shows the plans for the new Dragon Boat Course. (see drawing package)

http://www.towaterfront.ca/thirdnavloader.php?first=3e9112548cd89&second=3e9ba9dc309fc&third=419923fb76925

One thing I noticed (and I hope this does not turn into a flame thread) is that the plans have the finish line in the east end and the start line in the west end while the 2006 Toronto IDBF Club crew official site http://www.2006ccwc.com/site.html
has the start line in the east end.

Hopefully they talk. LOL. I can just imagine a course with a super long start area and a super short finish area. Not to mention the paddler marshalling area and VIP tents on the wrong ends of the course.

Thanks Mike for just "finding" the information for us.

I'm not actually sure I could really care less.
The fighting that goes on between TCBA/GWN/Sharifa/DBC and the IDBF has made
the whole sport frankly less attractive and in a few years will be over.

The Dragon Boat course, call it what you will, looks more like a great excuse for reparing the wall anyway. Yeah, yeah we all know what it about. But, no-one has done anything to ask about who will run the course, clean up the mess afterwards or control the maintenance after the event. Or is this Sharifa switching the Dragon Boat World over from the Island.

Perhaps the great increase in price this year, was to offset the Course.
Perhaps the TCBA money has gone into a venture they knew nothing about, and have no active part of.

Next year, the IDBF - not the DBC, will host an event in Toronto.
God knows why any team would want to even go. According to people, in the know - supposedly, the course will slant in depth across the lanes from approx 2.5m to 4.5m plus. So you have a crap shoot in the first round to see who gets the deeper lane. It will be a joke. The IDBF will suggest they had nothing to do with it - it was all Toronto's problem, and then the blaming game will begin.

The rest of the World will look at us, and wonder what complete idiots we are to have let this go ahead. Well, we let the Liberal Government waste several million dollars on Sponsorship Advertising - and two months later we were ready to re-elect them.

Mike, instead of posting anonymous rants go and do something useful with all the money the Dragon Boat community gives you. Because unless you and Sharifa, SRS and whoever else is playing out there stops playing games, this sport will die.

I am the original poster. I am not named Mike, and you should really seek help.

Mike is correct in saying that the start and finish are in the wrong place. You don't have the grandstands at the start line! Hope the designers figure that out quickly.

<<<gasp>>>

Someone explain to me WHY it is NOT 1000m course?WTF are they thinking?At the worlds I swear there is 1000m races!What is wrong with these people?

I guess you can swear all you like, next time read the IDBF rules for Club Crew Championships - 200 & 500!!!!!

Dummy!

The course has been modified due to bidding contracts coming in higher than expected. It is no longer going to be 650m.

It is now 600m.

600m...ha..ha..

It won't be finished on time anyway.

It should still be finished on time.

Initially, they weren't going to work on it during the winter months. Now, planning has changed, and they will have to.

Hey ASSHOLE(since you gave me permission and signed yourself Dummy)WTF would you build a course that was good for only CCC's?Very shortsighted and a waste of money.Besides which,bet it won't be ready either.

This course is a joke.
Outer Harbour and Central Island both offered much better and WAY easier to build locations, and they could have saved around 20 million.
The Island needs to be dredged, that's it. Prefect venue.
Outer Harbour needs some facilities. Before anyone jumps on the Outer Harbour lack of facilities, read what we are getting now, on the new course. Space for "temporary facilities" is mentioned. Outer Harbour has lots of space, and the site would be used by more than just the sailors for whom the new course is actually being built (new breakwall).
Now we'll get a $28 million DB course that's not good enough even to practice on. What are we going to do? Spin in circles? It's going to be 600m x 135m. That's tiny.

Whoever agreed with this course from dragonboat community is a complete idiot. Complete idiot.

Should be "perfect", not "prefect".
Oh, and the new course is just a lot of cement, no facilities, nothing.
For $28 million.

I'm not sure but is the course going to have stands on both sides of the course because if not It would have made sense if the course finished at Ontario place where it would be visible from both sides

Can't be used, the sailing community has complained many times about Dragon Boaters, They would not allow the facilities to be used there, plus talk about a great visual spectacle, everyone can hang around the generating station and piss in the porta potties. There are no facilities there for a World Class event. Also the water isn't as great as everyone thinks. The summer sizzler is only 400m, the first 59 the water is not a good depth and it is onl 400m because after you go beyond there the water is in the open and subject to the elements.

Well then the view is gonna suck then

If you knew anything, you would know that the new breakwall is not for sailors. The part of the breakwall being replaced is actually in good condition. And, with this new breakwall, some sailing moorings will actually be lost.

Nuke the whole idea of this course. It is so far from world class that it is nothing but a tragic waste of money and a guarantee that the city will never get the legitimate, world class water course elsewhere that it deserves.

Races at world club crews are 200m , 500m and 2000m loops for all classes except grand masters ( over 50 ).
2000m obviously replaces 1000m , probably due to course limitations.

I cannot believe that they (and who are they?)are doing this.What a waste.

I think 2000 is a better distance than the 1000 because it is totally different from the 500. The 1000 is similar to a long 500 in statagy etc. Even the intensity is only a bit lower.

"If you knew anything, you would know that the new breakwall is not for sailors. The part of the breakwall being replaced is actually in good condition. And, with this new breakwall, some sailing moorings will actually be lost. "

So both dragonboaters and sailors get screwed. Great.

The wall will get built, whatever is said on this forum or opinion you have of this new course.
Do you think City Officials or Fed Bureaucrats read this - no they are fed information from other Dragon Boat sources.

If the course is actually an argument for replacing sections of the breakwall, then it appears the City managed to pull the wool over the Feds and managed to grab some cash.

When or if, this all turns sour. Watch DBC get the blame as someone else suggested. Teflon Sharifa will then have nothing to do with it.

The reason Toronto won the bid to host the WCCC over Welland was not for any other reason than Sharifa 'donated' a large sum of money to the IDBF.

Welland is perfect from all accounts. Perfect course, close to Toronto and Niagara, (what tourist to Toronto doesn't go to Niagara Falls) add some concessions and it's perfect.

The people who compete at the WCCC are racers first, tourist second. Instead the IDBF granted Welland the World Corporate championships the year after. Those people are mainly in it for the fun. Wouldn't that be a better choice for Toronto.

The WCCC will be a Sharifa show. She will control the entire thing. It will have nothing to do with DBC. She will make all the decisions on boats and tech. You'll be able to see a great Lion Dance and eat a kick ass but bowl of noodles but the racing will suck.

Period.

She donated money to the IDBF ??
When how, how much.

Ungrateful bunch of whiners. If Sharifa or Mike did not work hard in getting the WCCC in Toronto, you would have complain that they are not doing enough to promote the sport. And when they do get the sport in Toronto you want to complain about the location. You say you are competitor first and tourist second. As a competitor you race wherever the racing takes you.

When dealing with the mass you cannot satisfy everyone.

"The people who compete at the WCCC are racers first, tourist second."

It's actually about 50/50, tourist/racer.

Some teams are PURE tourists, others are a mix. Even the sprint paddler ringers on some of the eastern european teams are there for the travel, the tourism and the party.

It's not a pure racers event, it's the CLUB CREWS. And I like it that way.

Welland would be a nice place to race, but face it, Welland has nothing else to offer but where you can go FROM there.

How many of you went to Niagara Falls on Saturday night of the NACCC? Show of hands?

Yeah, thought so. Imagine a week. Ugh.

Since when does the WCCC care about the race course?

Bump.

In order to save time, just cut and paste your arguments into the other thread on the same topic.

Yeah, totally. Thanks for finding this thread.

Why did they not hold it at Milton or Stouffville. Close to Toronto, both have deep dead water and ample grounds. All races could have been accomodated.

I bet Jeff is happy about the race course being built by his club. Perhaps he could do a festival there, bonus is a liscenced clubhouse for an after party.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1129029066280&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&t=TS_Home

"More than 4,500 competitors from 25 nations will be here, as well as more than 100,000 spectators over next year’s four-day event next."


We made the magic 100,000 number!!!!!!! I can't wait to see 25,000 people at the races every day!!!!!





Does anyone know if Sharifa has double or triple vision? For the life of me, I can't figure out how she sees all these people at the events she runs!

I think she counts the residents of the island and all visitors for a month on either side.

I am surprised she isn't claiming 2-3 million for the Club Crews.

"As a permanent city-owned facility, the Western Beaches Watercourse will be used as a training site for a number of sports, including dragon boating, rowing, canoeing and kayaking. "
Man, I'm so glad.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1129067414859&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&t=TS_Home

Re-posting the link again, and strongly recommending you read this one. It's got some funny lines in it, and presents the pro/con argument in the most even handed way that I have yet seen.

"There were so many politicians and City Hall types out there at the waterfront yesterday it was difficult to tell which ones were Joe Pantalone's relatives."

hee hee

Even better:

"Early arrivals got to see a giant steam shovel slowly push around great big stones, though. It was reminiscent of Jason Allison on a shootout."

Damn, that's funny stuff.

No one there representing any of the actual sport bodies. That should tell us something.

Sharifa was there.....representing the Chinese Community
and Dave Perkins from the Star to tell us how Paul Henderson should have been there.

This would be hilarious if it wasn't my tax dollars being wasted on some vote buying scheme.

Yeah I would much rather my tax dollars got wasted on something else. Call me selfish, but if they need to fix the darn breakwall anyway and I can finally get some tax dollars wasted in a way that benefits me for a change then what the heck.

That said, would I rather they had found a way to build a course somewhere where it could be full size, fully multi-sport right off the bat... Absolutely, but they either couldn't figure that out, or couldn't get any funding if it wasn't tied to the waterfront so this is what we get. I here that is the Rowers can snag an upcoming worlds or something that the city will extend it. Lets hope they do and then we all win.

The course at 135m is too narrow for rowing worlds so the extended breakwall argument is smoke and mirrors. Also, they'd need to dredge it - huge dollars and environmental hurtles. This is a white elephant, plain and simple.

Has anyone seen the construction going on out there. I for one am very excited at this new race site.

It's happening, all right. We had to steer our boat around one of the barges as they were loading it up (and had to go right through the wash of a tugboat to do so).

This was on a Saturday, so it looks like they're really pushing ahead to get it done in time.

Do people get that this is not really a race course?

Other "race courses" include Long Pond on Toronto Island, the stretch of water between Ontario Place and Lakeshore road, the Outer Harbour, etc, etc.

None of these are "race courses" either, but it's where we race.

The only real "race course" I have been on is Montreal's Olympic basin, and it's probably the worst place to race that I know.

So what's your beef with calling the new stretch of protected water by Marilyn Bell park a race course?

I'm not the poster 2 spots back but it seems to me the political-media spin is that this is a world class multisport race course when its really no better (or worse) than the race courses you've listed above. It won't do anything for sprint or rowing, that's a fact, due to the restricted length. And its to shallow (like the list above) to host a decent dragon boat race. How much did they spend again? 20 something million?

This race course will be exactly the same as ontario place. Wouldn't it be great to see them have to seed teams in the deep lanes at a world event.

Same as Ontario Place except 85 meters farther out into the lake... Oh wait, that isn't exactly the same... Never mind.

So what if they need to only run 4-5 of the 6 lanes to even it out. It will still be one of the better CCWC courses if not the best in the last 3-4 tries. Not perfect, but if we can get this while they fix the breakwall then why whine about it so much.

Just because it isn't where others may have wanted it. Sour Grapes.

Who cares whether it's 2.5 meters or 3 or 6? For one week of competition? I'm going to be out there using that much improved PRACTICE site 7 months a year. It's going to be way bigger and way less shallow, especially in the fall. What's your beef? You want to wait until you've got the perfect site? It doesn't exist!

This is great, some of my tax money spent on something I'll really use and enjoy!

White elephant my arse. It's the best practise site in the city already and it just got way better.

Sharifa Get off the Forum. Everyone knows you've never picked a paddle in your life.

Who will run this practice site? Sharifa or TCBA?

why would you want to practice in deep easy water? wouldn't it be more practical to condition yourself to crappy shallow water so then you won't have to whine about it when you come in last?

"
Who cares whether it's 2.5 meters or 3 or 6? For one week of competition? I'm going to be out there using that much improved PRACTICE site 7 months a year. It's going to be way bigger and way less shallow, especially in the fall. What's your beef? You want to wait until you've got the perfect site? It doesn't exist! "

Where are you going to park? How are you getting there? Where are you going to change? Where are you going to park once the soccer stadium is built? What about during the Ex? Going to pay $15 four days a week?
Oh, and where do you get 7 months of the year? Dragonboaters packed up in September, and didn't hit the water until well into April.
That's not even six months.
This site is nothing more than a breakwall fix wedged under different name.
I wonder who was meeting city councillors in parking garages for this...

"Dragonboaters packed up in September"

Not true. There's still teams practicing at TSCC.

Whoever said who cares about lane depths is either on crack or is so bad that at their speed depth does not matter. Unfair lanes suck, if you are in the shallow lane you are screwed. If you pay to paddle in a competition you do not want the luck of the draw to screw you over.

nobody seems to care that a proposed sport circuit will be comprised of a festival being a member of DBC. this will force paddlers to go to mediocre events with little regard to the sport side, to qualify for a race off. Little more then a cash grab. People should only pay for quality. Otherwise why not have the qualifying races be the Island and GWN, allow only the top say 40 teams on a point system attend a race off at stratford. Most teams attend those races to qualify and a great way to end the season having GWN as a set up race for Stratford.

More DB are concerned about the beer tent then sport racing. this is why they don't attend good water/quality events, but would rather bitch and be able to say a "good team finds a way to win". People talk the talk, but don't paddle the paddle.

"Dragonboaters packed up in September, and didn't hit the water until well into April."


Teams paddle right till there is ice man.

"
"Dragonboaters packed up in September, and didn't hit the water until well into April."


Teams paddle right till there is ice man. "

Which teams? Give me three dragonboat teams that could be using this site (so downtown Toronto based) that will be paddling next week?

Toronto Masters, Big Fish, Shogun & Mac's crew

Those are TSCC based teams. I really cannot see any of them being interested in moving from TSCC to the new "facility".

What new facility? TCBA isn't getting a clubhouse out of this.

Which is why I wrote "facility".
I don't know which one, ask this poster:
"
This is great, some of my tax money spent on something I'll really use and enjoy!

White elephant my arse. It's the best practise site in the city already and it just got way better.
"

The course is going to be right on our doorstep, of course we're going to use it! But why would we need to move or change?

Does anyone know , actually know , if the course will be dredged to even out the water depth ?

Apparently no dredging so the legacy is really just a wider training area for 600m. That area is generally the rower's turf so this should be interesting.

What will be the water depth in the lanes ?

depends on the lane, but IIRC, from 2 to 3.5m...

The survey on the torontowaterfront website shows lots of squiggly lines but it looks like 2.5 m in lane one more or less and 5.5 m in lane 6. I think they may not use lane one or two so that it's more even racing. That's the rumor anyhow.

Geez , I hope they use only the close to fair lanes.I understand the racing @ previous WCCC was a bit of a joke. Lets hope Canada does a better job. We are THE dragon boat country outside China. Lets not embarase our selves.

I think we already have with one of the Executive Members of DBC trash talking the bid all over Germany and consistently on this website!

Why do you think WE are the dragon boat world outside of China. many countries have been way more into it (and in a much more positive way) for longer - GB, Germany, Itlay, etc...

I think we already have with one of the Executive Members of DBC trash talking the bid all over Germany and consistently on this website!



Oh let me guess who.

Tcba has their hands in the pot for WCCC and the hole DB course.

Where oh where does that leave GWN?

Its a small world isn't it?

TCBA has little or nothing to do with this any more although they may benefit long term from the improvements at the western beaches practice site. As will TSCC.

Anyone who has any doubts take a look at the site. Way more protected water. Way more room.

What is everyone whining about? Unless you're connected to GWN, there is no downside to these improvements.

As for the racecourse, all these supposed 'concerns' are a red herring because the course is not a white elephant. Despite its inperfections, however minor they may be, it will still be one of the most fair courses IDBF has ever had an world championship competition on

Besides, the racecourse is temporary, practice is forever.

Go to the worlds. Germany etc. are important players but it is that obvious Canada THE DB country ,

This will be a great worlds, on friday anyway. Then people will figure it out, but by then their travel dollars will be spent and the media will have moved on to other stories.

The best thing to do would be to NOT hold an event on the course until the big event.

The introudction of the breakwall does not establish more practice area for training, all it does is push the breakwall out further. However, what it does is make everyone from whichever practice site paddle from that point to the "race-course", and you still have to go through the existing gaps in the breakwall to get there. So now you have a practice site - best suited for the TCSC as they can get there the easiest.